The wisdom of the natural seperating of being
About: aka The Lucifer Principle
There is strength and power and sustainability in differentiation ... in spreading out ... in new growth finding its own niche ... in it not interfering with old existence because it is separated into a new channel. Recognizing that "force" is what this item is all about.
In fact you can feel this power working in your own life when you separate functions moving different ones into a new channels or rooms or times.
It is ducently difficult to find an image to represent this force ... and even harder if one wants to anthropomorphize it. This abstract colorful mess is the best i can find at the moment. Thanks markchadwick.
Book Review …
The Lucifer Principle book by Howard Bloom, sees social groups, not individuals, as the primary "unit of selection," on genes and human psychological development. It states that both competition between groups and competition between individuals shape the evolution of the genome. The Lucifer Principle "explores the intricate relationships among genetics, human behavior, and culture" and argues that "evil is a by-product of nature’s strategies for creation and that it is woven into our most basic biological fabric". It sees selection (i.e. through violent competition) as central to the creation of the ’superorganism’ of society. It also focuses on competition between individuals for position in the ’pecking order’ and competition between groups for standing in pecking orders of groups. The Lucifer Principle shows how ideas are vital in creating cohesion and cooperation in these pecking order battles. Says The Lucifer Principle: “Superorganism, ideas and the pecking order’these are the primary forces behind much of human creativity and earthly good.”
That said the principle of life expanding, differentiating, spreading out into separate #niche’s, niche, is central to my understanding of life itself.
PS: i just remembered the connection of this principle to lucifer or #lucifer or #Freedom or freedom. Lucifer is associated with freedom. If a group grows, then that yields more freedom to the group as it spreads out.
PPS: then that needs to be reconciled with GW’s “Pride is Lucifer, less than human shape” which associates this same being with #pride or pride or even #SelfLove
- two-way streets
- item 17500
- item 17502
- natural selection
Me, I .. is just an almost neutral way to assert your own Ego as different. Nothing wonderful.
Of course, me, i don't think it is all that very rare ... good though .
Perhaps you misunderstood ... i'm not comparing two separate one way streets going different directions. I'm comparing the absurd example of putting two one way streets going different directions on the exact same street. Me thinks you would be getting lots and lots of collisions. Not wise at all ... agreed?
hmmm ... why? I thought what i said was very clear. What part of that do you not understand? Do you not yourself get amazed that anything at all is happening? I think i have heard you express that feeling quite literally. People's amazement that qualia exist is pretty much the same kind of amazement only perhaps more specific to what things feel like. Why does blue feel blue to you?
Perhaps if you would speak a bit about why you call "qualia" as "qualia in the pit" i would be able to share your "" on my own words.
Now i'm interpreting my wonder as a humerous example of the wisdom of the natural separation of being. It does kind of explain why biological cells divide and don't just become bigger and bigger beings. There is a wisdom in life spreading out into different niches. Me, i like it ... and don't want to fight that natural process anymore.
"where qualia show up" certainly refers to some stage moment/place thingey in you which also i have one inside me. we cannot deny those existences. i call that communication. ...er, even a7t (a 7 letters then t - which spells agreement ).
the only other edge about this pit that i know of that you didn't mention is inside or outside it. a pit only has access to what shows up there ... that is its insides. in a way that logically follows even from your definition. you could say that as "you only have access to your own pit", but then we need to introduce a new thingey, "you" or "me", yet that might be just something embedded in the language we need to talk about it. to say that you are in your pit and me in my pit is an assumption of which i can not find an edge ... iow, that is part of a story which either works for you or doesn't. but to say "pits are aware only of their own qualia" might better express that same thing without the assumption. i'm trying to introdue the concept of sovereign privileged access apart from the concept of ego ... er, perhaps badly ... but nonetheless, me thinks, an important edge of these pit thingies. and, er, me thinks is the explanation of what people call the "duality" problem.
anyway my qualia that i am calling "good dialogue" just showed up in my pit .
well yes we are in a7t on the non location of the pit ... and even, perhaps, that it may not have such a geographic property/dimension. the only thing we actually know by experience is that it exists.
i have introduced the fact that it has what we could call an "inside" and what we could call an "outside". your qualia show up inside your pit, mine inside of mine. That is a fact that i think we could agree upon, if and only if you can verity it with your own experience.
Now there are stories around that would contradict that. Telepathy would. If my qualia show up in your pit, then this hard fast observation of mine would break down. But i have never experienced telepathy, nor have i verified with my own personal experience that anybody else has. Therefore to me, it is just a story.
If you have experienced telepathy, you to somebody else, or they to you ... then i would totally understand your belief that my inside/outside fact is just my story.
I see no evidence that we are talking about different things here ... but i concede we may well be.
Incidentally we really do not need a detailed description of what i call the "inside view" in the pit ... for we both know that. But what i call the "outside view" might need a bit of description. It has not been, to my knowledge, widely talked about in the literature under that name. But this "outside view" of a pit is just as very factual to me as its "inside view". Don't you want to talk about that?
Well i think anyone who does not recognize both the inside and outside views of these qualia pits, is not being true to their own experiences. There are stories being told which do contradict that "geometry" ... my observation precludes those stories. Of course, the words "inside" and "outside" are not being used to describe spatial topological relationships ... but rather access to qualia. in other words, access to a qualia implies the inside of that pit ... lack of access means observation from outside it. For example: if i burn myself and observe my reaction in a mirror, i will have access to the burning qualia in the inside of my pit ... (you can substitute soul, it does'n sound so funny) ... if i see sombody else being burned with the same fire and observer their reaction, i do not have access to their burning qualia ... and hence i am observing their pit from the outside.
Well, my use of inside/outside, (like i said a couple times before and you have ignored), is only analogous to geometry and does not imply its location property. Look there are a couple of other dimensional names that are expressing similar different views ... subjective/objective ... private/public ... internal/external ... intrinsic/extrinsic ... intensional/extensional .... which do not carry the same connotation of geography or geometry. It is also intrinsically connected to spiritual/material ... and even of me/other. Who cares, well i care ... it's how i think about my predicament and what is happening. Knowledge of this edge represents part of my understanding of my very being.
While the geometry of turning a sphere inside/outside was interesting it does not inform my understanding of my experience as felt by me, versus the observation of its manifestations by others. So enjoy your kikapoo juice, but thinking about turning a sphere inside out will not be thinking about what i am talking about in this item.
My emotional experience here is a feeling that i have truthfully expressed my reaction to your comment in this context.
Does not "experience pit" better refer to what we have been talking about than "qualia pit"?
... but maybe its more of a stack or a heap or a network than a pit, eh?
Pit, after all, carries a lot of negative baggage which is just mocking the perdicament and not informing it, ... not to mention that it also implies there is a geographic location of the pit ... which, er, we do not know ... or do not want to know yet ... a7t ?
but there are just personal worlds here ... there is no alternative that i can experience.
Clearly though that did not get represented inside of you. Who knows, perhaps there was even hints and evidences within what you call piles of words that i store in the fastblogit SQL database. But maybe not ... I haven't even checked ... nor could i have possibly checked the parts to which i have no privilege to access.
This probably is the best situation in any case, since you seem to already have certain knowledge of that solution being represented here being an impossible event.
well of course you need do nothing to leave any discussion without going into RWG ... all you need do is to not respond to it anymore. in fact it is hard for me to interpret these attempts like yours above as anything other than just RWG played.
... no need for me to " ponder" that
Mark: A good mirror might reflect upon who agrees with whom most of the time.
Seth: are you saying that it seems to you that you agree with what i say more than i agree with what you say?
I do enjoy conversing, but not always. I would not want to lose your conversation to the [ego problem: item 4413] . I do as previously stated have a hard time conversing with mismatchers & polarity mismatchers are the worse for me. I guess sometime I may find the secret of doing so,
google Liber MMM had some training guide info for going beyond +/- and neutral without just ignoring stuff - I may pursue it.
please answer directly, because what you said above about a mirror, came as a big surprise.
oh shucks ... it was a simple question. and now i have no idea how that is a direct answer to it.
i'm beginning to think we are profoundly out of sync here.
i certainly do get that you don't like RWG and the ego stuff and try to avoid it. I hate it myself.
I do not like that you assume that i am a "mismatcher & polarity mismatcher" ... that goes against every grain of my body ... please do not type cast me like that ... because if you presume that i am doing that all the time, you will never hear what I actually am doing.
and now Liber MM ... wtf does that have to do with whether you think you agree with me more than i agree with you. To be honest with you, whether you agree with me or not, you never do tell me ... so how the fuck am i suppose to know. That kind of is my point here, ya know.
the rwg above was a distraction and just obscured that recognition.
Oh .... how so ?
doesn't seem to me like you actually do get this "stuff". er, which stuff is not truly identified as "my stuff" ... but rather is the "stuff" of freedom ... aka, Liberty! It is a salient edge of Nature. Perhaps it is stated here from a slightly new perspective ... just so one could perhaps concieve of it differently for the first time. Although, i doubt that it is a new idea to you. Sorry that it contains the apparently fatal qualia for you that i said it, instead of it coming from your customary sanctioned sources.
The same kind of things feel different to me at different times. I can account for that by saying i am just a moody bugger ... which is true. But there is a good aspects of this fact: i can see the same thing from different points of view ... or at least i can evaluate my relationship to it from the view of the different qualia that present when I am in different contexts. [perhaps an example is required here]
I think the fact of different qualia appearing in different moods belongs here in this item because it is a force that spreads out and differentiates even in my own life. There is, of course, a good and a bad side to this inconsistency of perception.
I also expect that i am talking here in this item about what others have called "The Lucifer Principle".
I kind of get and agree with your basic principle of “spreading out adding quality to new growth” seth.
I think you need a better example than the one lane road however because.
- They in fact do put two way streets on one lane roads. One such is road construction where the road is controlled by flag men or automated signals. Another is a one lane bridge on a two way road. Another is a roundabout.
- Branching out of a one lane road is more so for efficiency or convenience than it is for quality and growth potential … which the later is what I think is the primary aspect of your thought.
well when road crews turn a highway into a single two way channel in opposite directions they are simply using time to simulate two separate channels … the example holds for me.
we spread out into multiple channels not just for “efficiency or convenience” but rather that it simply would not work unless we did.
Given the number of people commuting into downtown Seattle by car today, if this principle was not used, and some stupid civil engineer was stubborn enough to insist on keeping two lane highway betwen Renton and Seattle, then what we are doing now simply would not be working.
Does that mean what is being done “now” is the best? Maybe it would be better for many more people to work from home, and receive goods and services via efficient delivery from Amazon Drones, and then even a one lane road would suffice for casual creative exploration in one’s spare time. Roads, me still thinks, are not good examples.
well the principle does no judge or imply any such judgement at all.
we could, however. the most usual of course would be, “grow or die”
Well I am just saying the example would be better by picking something that naturally grows and gets better in the growing … I don’t think roads are that example. Sometimes they do, sometimes they can diminish and get better … the size roads need to be is only a function of the people who feel it necessary to travel. Yet travel is not an intrinsically expanding thing … more a function of current social values. Roads would be a good example for things that fluctuate.
well certainly we can look for a better exemplar, even thought this is one such instance of it happening. the most dramatic exemplars can be found in natural evolution … every single instance of it happening.
← one of my favorites it cell division as an embryo grows.
but i wanted an expmple that was not specifically biological. This principle is not limited to life … it happens in what we might consider not living things as well.
thing is i am not so very sure that the concept of “better” should necessarily even be associated. to me it is more of a precedence thingey … “grow or die” … though in the lofty view when contemplating evolution, every shade in that spectrum exists. none the less, that is our judgement, and not the spirit itself which exists quite apart from our judgements of it.
I do not know of a #CounterArgument .
Note the connection between #SpreadingOut and #Freedom … the former creates the latter.
both, me thinks, are characteristics of the #LuciferPrinciple
Aligns with GW’s tai shu commentary on P.2621 :
I can summarize the above: for ( any being the component essentials are also beings –→ ∞ (repeat) ) .
P.2621 #22,1 83-1-2-12-11-14 (WED 33.67 years ago)
" ... Pristine Realities evolve to Symbols; Logic Language, Logos emanates from the Father, not from Nothing except as it seems, of Tertulian pee; thus "The Heart girt with a Serpent" has parallels in Ontogeny & Phylogeny. If you want to dunk your doughnut, go ahead & dunk it! "it is a lie, this folly against self" - Awareness, Attention is the function of the Ego; Brightness, Brilliance, Luminosity which is measured by Photons increase with Development.
(2462) CONSCIOUSNESS is awareness of the part which self takes in production of a judgment either as cause or effect - cause when I act on another, effect when I act on myself, when my hand touches my head, e.g., "I am a cause - active consciousness; passive consciousness - I am an effect". Believe a cause exists without an effect or vice versa if you like to be mystifyied. The categories of Reality are: number, space, motion, time & judgment; if it be a thing it must have unity, it must be one, or it does not exist. Also it must have extension, speed, persistence & consciousness; these cats or essentials are independent but concomitant; the thing is component essentials; there is no "ding an sich". From here we can go to the subject of "Electricity" & what happens to make it positive or negative, the yang & the yin!"
The idea encompasses maybe – focus ∬(context (context – distinction) – distinction (context – distinction))
to any level.
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