Black Lives Matter

 
 what prompted me to pen “Black Lives Matter” was what i instantly thought about  when i jammed on my breaks on 116th Avenue back in September 2015.   SeveraIl black kids had dashed out in front of my car on their bikes … had i not broke sharply i would have mamed one of the.   I thought,  “Black lives matter”.   I could have just as easily not reacted so dramatically and the legal system may have justified my slower reaction … but maybe not because i am not a cop.    That is what the movement is saying.   Also that there should be dire consequences for those cops who do not culture that needed respect for the lives of all others … even to take on an added risk to themselves.
 

for me this is not a racial matter,  rather it is a matter of cops shooting people unnecessarily and then not being held accountable.  the laws and judicial processes have evolved to give police officers way too much latitude in defending themselves.   Officers should  be sent to jail, if they cannot prove, beyond a reasonable doubt,  that they actually would have suffered grave bodily harm if they had not shot.  Human life matters much more than justifying the knee-jerk fear of a cop.  

Currently a cop will get off,  if they show some indication that they were afraid of being harmed.  That should be changed to the bold criteria above.  

seth

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  1. black lives matter
  2. bicycle street black kids
  3. thought 21134

Comments


Seth says
a part-of Life Matters

Seth says
(;-)) 2015-09-10 10:45:19 thought 18788
seth 2015-09-10 10:32:52 thought 18788
(;-)) 2015-09-10 10:03:49 thought 18788
The ugly side of trying to matter? (***)


yep, some people will carry shit too far and even into violence.

... but that people react with violence and disgusting shit against others, is irrelevant to the judgement that all lives should appear just as valuable to a policeman when they are supposed to be  protecting citizens.  Policemen should not be permitted to kill citizens just because they can claim that they felt threatened.  We need to change that in our justice system. 
Not just policemen, dude - ALL people.

Well that is certainly true ... but don't know why it is addressed to "dude" ... nor why it needs to be pondered.  I think all "stand your ground" laws should be changed to move the criteria just a bit more in the direction of an ultimate respect for the value of life, even someone else's. 

Seth says
(;-)) 2015-09-10 11:15:09 thought 18788
seth 2015-09-10 11:08:31 thought 18788

how is black-on-black or black-on-white or citizen-on-police relevant to police-on-black crime?  I say it is irrelevant.  Any one of those types of crimes can not be used as an excuse to make another type less heinous or more justified.
It also discusses police on black. Also if there is racism it is all relevant; the usual blindness notwithstanding.


Well if you noticed some really pertinent trustable stat there, you could point it out in particlar.  I scanned it and did not see anything except the usual distractions from the judgements at hand.  I am, after all, looking for trustable unbiased stats sowing how far we have come from the blatant racism of the 18th century.

Seth says
all the CNN stories that i watched on CNN used the picture on the left.

I find it interesting that i have not seen  a single story that mentioned Mercer's race ... written or broadcast ... untill this one you repeated.  Denise had asked me about his race and i said he had a tone to his skin and it was not totally clear to me.  His father is obviously white, but I have not seen his mother. 

Now, I have not been focused on this story and certainly have not heard or read all that has been said or written.  But the lack of stories about his race, had me speculating to myself that there was a  consciousness in the media not to make a point that this may have been a black on white motivated crime.  

What is your take on the existence (or not) of that particular consciousness ... was it merely my private observation and speculation?

IamanI says
seth 2015-10-05 08:21:09 thought 18788
all the CNN stories that i watched on CNN used the picture on the left.

I find it interesting that i have not seen  a single story that mentioned Mercer's race ... written or broadcast ... untill this one you repeated.  Denise had asked me about his race and i said he had a tone to his skin and it was not totally clear to me.  His father is obviously white, but I have not seen his mother. 

Now, I have not been focused on this story and certainly have not heard or read all that has been said or written.  But the lack of stories about his race, had me speculating to myself that there was a  consciousness in the media not to make a point that this may have been a black on white motivated crime.  

What is your take on the existence (or not) of that particular consciousness ... was it merely my private observation and speculation?
I had also heard a broadcast TV station mention that he was of mixed race.  It would be an interesting investigation to get to the truth & facts of the matter - that's all.  We all know that the narrative is the most important for the M$M. (I think I mentioned that somewhere else as well)


IamanI says
IamanI 2015-10-05 08:35:03 thought 18788
His motives may have been an attempt to start a race war as well. Do we have black men that hate black men as a race?
BTW I rarely watch CNN (just like you probably rarely watch Fox News) -&- this particular story I mostly boycotted except my comment on facebook. I think that mine was better. An executive order by Hipo-POTUS or Hipo-Hillary to ban guns & confiscation would do nothing except turn atrocity into a matter of bombs, knives & bows/arrows instead of guns.


IamanI says
IamanI 2015-10-05 07:55:51 thought 18788
Infowars: ...
According to The Gateway Pundit and Conservative Treehouse, CNN altered a photo of Chris Harper-Mercer, the Oregon shooter, to make him look white.

“On the left is the selfie Christopher Mercer uploaded to his social media,” the Conservative Treehouse reports. “On the right is how CNN presented the same selfie in broadcast stories about him.  Why did CNN need to change the complexion (color) of their broadcast?”

CNN also did not show photos of Mercer’s mother, who is black.

The reason CNN altered the photo is obvious: the race of Mercer does not fit the narrative that only white males �" and thus white supremacist �" can be mass shooters.

A black male shooter is incompatible with the racist Black Lives Matters class warfare agenda pushed by the liberal establishment and its propaganda media.

On Friday, a CNN correspondent, Pamela Brown, cited writings allegedly penned by Mercer where he “rambled about his hatred toward black men,” thus portraying him as a racist or possibly a white supremacist.

The Los Angeles Times also portrayed Mercer as a white supremacist:

A federal law enforcement source familiar with the investigation said, though, that authorities had obtained some of Harper-Mercer’s writings, as well as a note he left behind, suggesting that he supported white-supremacist causes and opposed organized religion.

...Hmm...

Iamnai says
... & Shit Steeks in the News - Obama's buddy Bill Ayers


Seth says
Donald Trump’s white fascist brigade: His rallies are now a safe space for racism ... plus an interesting comparison of the use of "black lives matter" and "political correctness" by conservatives.

Seth says



Well, maybe cops can't just kill people willy nilly.

Seth says
anyway it does no matter that we do not see eye to eye on this matter.  and i doubt that any further dialogue will change that.   but i rather expect you would suddenly see my point of view,  if somebody you cared deerfly for, was killed by an cop, and the cop said he was afraid, and so got off scott-free. 

Seth says
did not happen to me, but there are plenty of adequately documented cases of it happening.  the one that really hit home to me happened here in Seattle – an Indian totem pole carver was shot and killed by a cop because he would not drop his carving knife, and the cop got off scott-free.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_John_T._Williams ← this is just one of many such documented cases.

Mark de LA says
Not to make light of it but one might take light of Chris Rock’s advice
laughing 
– remember the police on Venice trying to stop you & ask for your ID – cost the family > $500 
In this case what possessed the guy not to drop the fucking weapon?

Mark de LA says
Another choice is for the police not to enter certain neighborhoods where the inhabitants don’t obey police authority & leave them, like the walled cities in China centuries ago, up to their own device; drug cartels & terrorists notwithstanding.

Mark de LA says
Underlying all you say is a thin thread of personal racism that the race-baiting poverty pimps of the left have been spreading around for a couple of generations.  Recommend shedding it for something more useful.

Seth says
that is obviously not a practical option.  the police are there to discourage crime for all people in our society, not just some.

Seth says
well it appears we have a symmetrical situation,  you believe i am being racist, and i believe you are being racist.  unless we are prepared to give up those beliefs, there will be no deeper understandings that will happen between us on this matter.  so i see no use in continuing a dialogued between us about race on this thought. 

this thought was not even intended to be about race, but rather about the extraordinary allowance in our society for police to kill with no accountability.  it is about a respect for others lives.    ← please note i have factored race out of this thought.

Mark de LA says
Apparently some in your neck of the woods (Sedro-Woolley) don’t feel the same. thumbs down

Mark de LA says
Not all “sides” of an argument have equal value. Wishing away racism & still using racist arguments is shit. Going human instead of racist is the way to factor out race not just more of the same. 

Seth says
Mark de LA 2016-07-14 16:34:47 [item 18788#54314]
lack of evidence does not convince a closed mind.  
Where did that happen to you? Where did it happen to someone else? Urban legends & annectdotal bs notwithstanding you are spreading serious racism.
Seth 2016-07-14 19:38:26 [item 18788#54318]
yep, Chris Rock gives good advise here is a humorus way – some may even heed it.  i’ve pointed out this video several times already just because it hits the nail on the head.

things might have gone down quite differently in Venice, if i had been black – then who knows, you might have been able to see my point – but shucks i would not have gotten the chance to make it laugh.
again we will not make any headway whatsoever with a common understanding of racism with you believing what you apparently believe and me believing what i believe.   there is absolutely no need to continue discussion of racism  here.   since this is my thought, i request that that you respect my factoring that out of any discussion on this thought.

Mark de LA says
Yep – it’s your shit (see title) eat it! 

Mark de LA says
Understanding is the booby prize.  What’s your solution? Rabble-rousing & demonstrations are more of the same – just political attention getters & fatten the coffers of M$M & politicans – a crisis is a terrible thing to waste or (Rahm Emanuel mayor Chicago)
ETC. (Chicago murder rate) laughing

Seth says
Well, even thought it has nothing to do with this particular thought, Rahm has a good idea here … needed change is best recognized during  dramatic events.  Let me give you an example …


A friend of mine has an apple tree in a near by farm.  It is laden with fruit now which is falling off the tree.  The abundance of this tree is amazing!  But there is so much of it and it will come down so fast that with our current network of hungry humans here is Renton, we will not be able to digest it all before it rots.  So this is a crisis begging change to our network.

Mark, do you want some apples?  Free to you, but you pay for fedx shipping at our discount rate.

Amazingly these apples are bug free … slightly tart … and crispy.

Such a crisis is a terrible thing to waste.

Seth says
Mark de LA 2016-07-18 09:19:55 [item 18788#54424]
mislabeling this as a crisis is bizarre!  sending by fedex is a misuse of the energy to deliver them at such a distancesad Simply give them away to locals . I’ll bet getting some teenagers a chance to exercise & pick up a couple of bags a day & take them home or give them away in the neighborhood would be easy. I get an excess of paper bags from the grocery stores – easy to find enough of them.
Cloward-Piven loves crises (manufactured or otherwise) to overload the system & usher in more governmentalism & social justice bs.
Seth 2016-07-18 09:47:16 [item 18788#54429]
ok sending you apples via fedx might be  more expensive than you buying organic apples in a store … althought knowing the specifics figures might be interesting.   it was just a thought … after all, solving these kinds of problems  that is what thinking best does.

it is a crisis in that it must be resolved in time to take advantage of the abundance of the tree.   but this is just one example of what happens again and again with suburban fruit trees and vines.  i’ve already seen this happen a couple of times in the area.  ignoring it as if it did not happen again and again is stupid. 
Mark de LA 2016-07-18 09:56:38 [item 18788#54431]
Then again something mother nature does – making more apple trees in the neighborhood – you are calling a crisis. laughing An apple is the tree’s way of making more trees.  Did you think it is making apples for you to eat? The crisis , as most ones are, is mostly in your mind.
Well yes of course the crisis is just in minds … and the intentions of our community.   Obviously !  That is the nature of all such kind of consciousnesses … of these kind of interactions with others.  “Crisis” is what  we call a certain kind of interaction between us. 

Mark de LA says
Mark de LA 2016-07-18 10:13:42 [item 18788#54434]
Nah! “Crisis” is an individual judgment – a fear – about an imagined future .  Attention is misplaced from what is happening now & a selfie preservation need. There are too many birdies in your version.
Seth 2016-07-18 10:35:35 [item 18788#54440]
well sure a “crisis is a judgement”, it can be shared by many people in a community or just in one individual’s mind.  in the case of the apple tree it is a fear that the apples will rot and not ever get eaten by humans.

the apples rotting does not happen in an instant of now.  There is  a relatively long duration of time in which these apples can be digested by our community rather than rotting on the ground underneath the tree.  You should be able to see the advantage to us of this digestion happening in people’s guts, or their freezers, or their pies, or their cider mills.  So the best happenings for all that we can share has yet to be designed.  what makes it a “crisis” is the short amount of time in which all of this digestion must be contrived to happen. 
thus imagined! 

Seth says
Seth 2016-07-19 04:03:44 [item 18788#54453]
or from a different point of view.   fact is that almost every time something breaks, i end up fixing it, and making it better.  certainly this is not just me … have you not also noticed that happening too?

which is why i have never understood why you rail against Rahm’s, “never let a crisis go to waste”.  
Mark de LA 2016-07-19 06:30:46 [item 18788#54454]
I don’t rail or rag against anything. It is basically a community organizer strategy out of rules for radicals – a leftist way of thinking: not mine.  Some of the crises are caused by Rahms & Barack’s incompetences.
BTW – the M$M creates crises with its megaphone effect. BlM is one of them.
Seth 2016-07-19 08:11:02 [item 18788#54455]
So perhaps about a totally different subject.   I am curious … actually asking you a question here: 

has anything that you rely on broken, then you fixed it, and made it better? 

When i noticed that happening, again and again in my life, and especially in my business … i though:  hey! surprise when these problems happen they are opportunities.  I noticed that before i heard of Ram’s words.  Then when i heard them, i thought:  hey! surprise Rahm’s talking about the same thing that i noticed myself.

Of course if you never noticed the opportunity hidden behind the problems in your life,  then i can understand why you would associate whatever to what a democrat says.  But if you noticed it, and yet complained … er i don’t know …. hence my curiosity. 
Mark de LA 2016-07-19 08:23:42 [item 18788#54456]
sure, but that is not what Rahm is talking about.
Seth 2016-07-19 08:39:34 [item 18788#54458]
in my interprtation it is the same phenomena … even though it is a different venue and context.   My recognition of the similarity here is a result of my belief that what happens in our  society is a reflection of what happens in our personal lives … that society is just a big one of us.   So i look for phenomena which happen in both.  Once you see them, you start seeing more and more of them.  Of course if don’t believe that reflection to exists, you will deny each and every example of it. 
Mark de LA 2016-07-19 08:43:47 [item 18788#54460]
Do those beliefs contribute to rarely being able to stay on topic or follow another’s train-of-thought?laughing
(no answer needed)pondering
Seth 2016-07-19 09:01:23 [item 18788#54462]
well my belief explains why i interpreted Ram’s words one way, and your lack of belief caused you not to see that interpertation and to say, “sure, but that is not what Rahm is talking about”.   ← me i call that following this particular train of thought quite directly. 
Mark de LA 2016-07-19 09:02:52 [item 18788#54464]
go look at the title of this item
i think you are confused about who did what and why in this item.   You brought up Rahm’s strategy about using crisis as opportunity, not me.  If that was off topic, then you own that distraction, not me.  But it was not a distraction,  Rahm’s strategy obtains,  these shootings are an opportunity to change how we hold the police accountable to people’s lives versus their own fear of bodily harm. 

Seth says
Seth 2016-07-19 09:43:20 [item 18788#54466]
incidentally … and yes this is kind of off topic .. i think we need to be aware that there are different narratives begin told here by different people.  There is a lot of, you story/or mine,  happening.  

Now, if we are both acutely aware of that happening,  what opportunities present ?
Mark de LA 2016-07-19 12:42:06 [item 18788#54468]
NONE, I’M DONE wasting time on it .tuit 
laughing

Mark de LA says
Yep the one-sided media hype & story that fits the agenda & narrative of “cops are shooting us” thumbs down

Seth says
well the facts apparently fit the narrative that “cops are shooting us out of fear, lack of training, or lack of respect of life”.  it has yet to happen whether in this example the officer is going to be held responsible for pulling a trigger unnecessarily.  

When the facts fit a narrative, usually sane people take that as a validation of that narrative … rather than  automatically judge the narrative  as wrong because it does not match their preferred internal presumptions.

Mark de LA says
Apparently you think you know the facts. Yet the police investigation has yet to say anything about what happened from the cop’s perspctive.  Those who are prejudiced have already aligned with the narrative WITHOUT THE FACTS! thumbs down

Seth says
Well there is no place above where i said, or even implied,  that “i knew the facts” ← i was institutionally very careful not to.

This new increased transparency by the system, together with published observations by the public, are having the effect over many of these shootings, to focus our attention on why these officers are continually not held accountable even when the facts are determined that the shooting was not necessary.  Sans that transparency and scrutiny by the public, we cannot expect the police to be honest about reporting the facts. 

Mark de LA says
One detail might be interesting is the timing of the “victim”’s raising his hands before/after he was shot or just for the photo that has circulated. 

Seth says
Mark did you read anything that i said above at all?   If so then how could you possibly honestly think that “i am running a narrative about race” ??

Seth says
well from his hospital bed he said his hands were up all the time.  there may or may not be video to prove that. 

Si says
Mark. Get your shit in order dude!!!

Mark de LA says
Your comments align with the topic & the cops shoot/kill black people meme.  Enjoy the hurt for other people. BTW N can go fuck himself.

Seth says
there is something behind the racial meme … and that is what i am talking about.  that which is behind the radial meme has nothing to do with the racial component here.  that you seem to be hell bent in  hearing only the racial part, is a story from inside  *you*, which you are trying to push off on me. 

Thinking about the  question you asked today in group the great work,  first know what is you,  and what is not you.  for example, thinking that something that is coming from you, is coming from me, is not to know what or who you are. 

Seth says
yep that was the prompt:  The “black lives matter movement” is why this matter came into my mind.   but read what *i* actually said about the matter and what changes in our society that i propose would improve our situation … that is what is coming from me. 

now, please be honest, what part of these thoughts are coming from *you*?

Incidentally you have your own thoughts and agenda that was formed in a thought which you withdrew.  Is it possible that you got this these thoughts all munged up together?

Incidentally, incidentally, notice that this thought began in a flash back in 2015, long before the recent shootings happened.   Here i am just watching from where thoughts come into my mind and to whom i may honestly attribute their vibration. 

Mark de LA says
Seth 2016-07-21 08:59:58 [item 18788#54494]
if the facts of the matter are being accurately reported,  this is yet another example of police fear (or lack of training) overriding respect for the life of another. 


http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/21/us/miami-officer-involved-shooting/index.html
 
How many example do we need before politicians focus on what the problem actually is and change the system?  This is not about race!
Mark de LA 2016-07-21 11:01:38 [item 18788#54505]
& yet you ran your narrative about it anyway – phooey!
Mark de LA 2016-07-21 11:04:43 [item 18788#54506]
Can’t expect Seth to run anything except what the M$M, twitter cloud & leftist anti-cop agenda runs, either. thumbs down
Mark de LA 2016-07-21 14:01:20 [item 18788#54523]
Maybe the has something to do with the raciality component – idk.laughing
This is getting boring!  ZZzzz…. There is a movement that No Lives broken heartMatter & Transparent Lives Matter bubbling up these days somewhere in a multiverse of mungeables. 

Seth says
laughing neither has touched me yet.

Mark de LA says
The first time I saw the story I thought it was bogus. Why would any real cop shoot a man on the ground with his hands in the air? (That’s the optics anyway) SHe would have to be nuts given the recent publicity.  Then I looked for the cop’s rationale.  At that time there was none.  They were still investigating. I am bored with the story now so I will not search for updates until they bubble up somewhere I read. I pondered at the story & thought that it may have looked to an outsider that the large man was molesting the kid. Who knows? Nobody knows, really.   The rest of the story is everyone grinding their already always axes & sharp knives to make someone politically wrong & maybe start some more riots for the long hot summer.  It is a bit too late for the Republican convention in Ohio, but one is coming up for the ‘crats in Phili soon. Enjoy the warmth! It is 91ºF this afternoon in Paradise.
cool

Si says

Si says
Yes exactly! There is only one life that matters … yours. And fully realizing that gives you the freedom to love others unconditionally for you will no longer feel threatened. All will honor YOUR life equally.   

Seth says
speaking only for myself, lots of other lives matter to me.  they are way to numerous for me to enumerate.

Seth says
i am just telling  about a “if this, then that” contingency which, imho, all rational people should acknowledge.  to me it should not even be controversial.  ← but that people, like yourself, seem oblivious to the contingency,  makes me wonder whether  they are rational,  or being intentionally irrational.    and then too why are they being irrational (relative to me)  in this particular context.  i am rubbing my mind against theirs … noticing how (and perhaps why) they don’t connect … even in the hope that a connection might yet, with focus, obtain. 

Si says
Yes … and that is exactly why your experience has elements like this article portrays in it. If the life that mattered to you was yours, then your experience would not contain stories like this. Instead it would only contain stories about love and appreciation between others. Mark would call it kumbyya. The more you work from the operational understanding that you are completely creating your experience and thus you are important, the more the stories that surface within your experience will be in harmony with you and your actual desires for an experience. Others exist. Others create their stories. You create yours. You created this story. When you understand that, you will not be including stories like this one in your experience. It will not be exciting for you to do so. It will not be in your experience even if it is in the experience of some others.

You include these stores now as part of your sympathy for something you are creating that is not actually real, which is the idea that others and you are sharing the same experience. When you realize that is not happening, you will start including the things you enjoy and only those things and will not be aware of the things you are not interested in. You are doing that now, but right now there is no bias. By believing you are sharing reality with others, you are getting a random sampling. That is what you include in your story. You can be more deliberate about it all by realizing you are doing it, and doing it all the time, weather by choice or default.   

Si says
All possibilities of “Black Lives” exist. If you can imagine it, then it exists. Ask yourself, “why did I select this story about black lives to appear in my reality mirror and play through my senses?” If you ask that question, then you can begin to see the sequences of your own thoughts that select what will appear to your senses. It begins to become part of your awareness.  

Si says
You are right Mark. There is no need for the Police. When each person follows their own excitement, then each person will be in exactly the right place at the right time to have the experience they desire. We collectively invent the police to provide apparent order inside the chaos we create by having the belief that we are in one reality with others. Then we have to have things like police. When we realize we are in our own reality, then we only need to include the experiences of others and otherness that we desire and all artificial constructs like police become obsolete. Does any other aspect of the natural world need police? Nope. There is a big clue there. winkheart

Mark de LA says
Seth 2016-07-21 15:25:17 [item 18788#54532]
quite a bit more context on this particular shooting here. 
http://wsvn.com/news/local/video-shows-moments-before-north-miami-police-shot-unarmed-man/

the police officer who shot said he was aiming for the autistic  man with the toy truck.   to me this is the same situation,  there was no urgency or need to shoot anyone.  hold the police accountable when they are too fast on the trigger.   all human lives  matter far more than justifying a confused panic of a person with a gun.  if they know they cannot get off by just claiming that panic, then these incidents will rapidly go away. 
Mark de LA 2016-07-21 15:35:42 [item 18788#54533]
There should be a test/trial of strictly non lethal methods in your neighborhood for maybe the next 5 years with quarterly review of the statistics & feedback from the community and the cops.  With such a scientific study then it could spread throughout the state etc. Why not agitate for that at your local levels. Make it your cause celebre.
Mark de LA 2016-07-21 16:46:30 [item 18788#54537]
Notice you talked about something besides my suggestion. 
What is also interesting is that you crotch everything in terms of the police being afraid whereas mostly they say they are enforcing the law (what they are hired to do) . It may take a bit of rational thought for you to wrap yourself around the duty & purpose of the police.  If everyone was nice & obeyed polite society’s rules there might not be a need for them. Furthermore that tired old Golden Rule would eliminate the need for the laws. That being aside, attitude in any encounter can escalate or settle down given the proper respect for what the police do & under what real danger they put themselves into on our behalf as well as the other half of the equation which is for the police avoid confrontation where it is not necessary to keep the peace. 
Sounds like your usual BS, T&P, to me. laughingwink

Si says
Okay, thanks! If I extend your way a little compassion, I can then translate BS to be the word “understanding”. So then it becomes “Sounds like your usual understanding”. Thus we can communicate without there being a feeling of directional negativity.   

Si says
Traditional products of thinking.

We need chickens to create eggs. We need eggs to create chickens.

We need police to create order. We need order for police to have a purpose.

What would be better trains of thought?

We need chickens to create eggs. We need eggs because we like to eat them.

We need police to create order. We need order so that we can have stories like this one in our experience.

Seth says
well your first two sentences hang together well over here,  but then your third does not follow at all.    if others lives didn’t matter to me, then i would feel justified in (or free to) treat  others as if they were worthless … and not as you say, “only contain stories about love and appreciation between others. … and kumbyya”.   And my empathy (not sympathy) for others lives does not in any way conflict with my own firm belief that my own life has ultimate value to myself.  I do not need to give up the former, to obtain the latter.

incidentally the definition of a psychopath is a person who has “a lack of empathy” for others.  People feel empathy for others to a greater or lesser degree.  Apparently we are on opposite ends of that spectrum.  I doubt that any amount of reasoning between us will effect those emotions in the slightest … rather you will end up rationalizing yours, and i mine.

sorry, the rest of your thoughts sound confused were i to think them for myself.   you might communicate more useful information to me,  if you would only talk about yourself, and not me. 

Seth says
incidentally please keep the larger text size of comments as in the original fastblogit.  making 3.0 comments smaller and smaller is starting to obstruct my eyes.

Si says

Si says
The “worthless” theory is a big part of how the universe model was created, justified, maintained. Even you say “would feel justified”, and not “this is what I would do”. You simply would not do that. And, neither would others. When we truly identify with the understanding that this is all our creation, then we relax into it and loose all need to defend, hurt, blame, and all the other things that we set up conditions to experience through the “universe” model. Your ideas about the world that way are real. We collectively created those ideas once upon a time … exactly so we could have the kinds of experiences those ideas foster and allow. But that time of experiences is coming to an end. The new ones coming in have intrinsic awareness the shift in consciousness. The old ones can learn the shift … and all will benefit.   

Or not. For the next 100 years or so there will be a mix in the general culture of the universe verses multiverse awareness. For the next 1000 years or so there will be pools of humanity that still desire the types of experiences that are only possible in the universe model and they will exist as pockets of culture within the larger group of people who operate out of the multiverse model. After about 1000 years virtually all people will be fully cooperating and co-creating with a solid understanding of the multiverse model. Remember, there are many names for these models. The bible calls the current transition rapture followed by 1000 years of peace. Other people call the multiverse “Macro Society” and the pockets of “universe” experiencing people “Micro Islands” … but no matter what labels you use and what “source” you prefer, it’s all the same stuff in virtually every religion and model of thought.  

Si says
p.s. psychopath’s and all manner of similar ideas of “illness” exist only in the universe model. In the multiverse model, everyone is in their own reality and as such their experience is what it is and is correct. People have to hold tightly to the idea that all are experiencing the same reality in order for mental illness to even make sense, let alone be experienced. If it is what you are experiencing, then it is not illness, it is you. And if you include someone else’s experience in your own, then YOU should not be judging it … it is not yours to judge.

Si says
You snooze, you loose.  

Seriously, there is a huge opportunity here and no one is excluded from reaping the benefits and radically improving their existing lives. But some people will not be able to make the shift in consciousness due to the weight of the momentum of their current beliefs and thought habits. Those people will cume-out and come back with the needed upgrades to their consciousness – literally genetically programmed in … and that’s as good a way as any other, perhaps better, it is after all the natural way.  

Mark de LA says
Mark de LA 2016-07-21 19:20:13 [item 18788#54549]
The snoozer is the purveying of passionless pellick! laughing
slogans + slogans = pellick

Seth says
hmmm …. i am getting good at predicting smug.    i said you would rationalize or justify your feeling that “There is only one life that matters … yours” , and you did.  Nice story, incidentally,  i enjoyed it,  and thanks for that.

Especially the part about “The ‘worthless theory’ is a big part of how the universe model was created, justified, maintained”.  ← for which i can feel some truth  in my mind  laugh.   Of course in my story i call it by another name … perhaps a variation on “the resilience of diversity” … or,  “niche theory”.   But me, i do not use that to rationalize a feeling that others are worthless, even to myself.  Fact is that i do firmly believe,  “the life that matters most to me is my own”,  and i do “truly identify with the understanding that this is all our creation”.  So quite logically your conclusion that this thought,  “Black Lives Matter”,  would not be in my verse, does not obtain. 

There is a wisdom in feelings of sovereignty especially to gin up the energy of one’s will.  I am all for it, i have seen it work in the world time and again and I feel it myself.   The energy of self is great … don’t misunderstand me … i love it heart

But for me to feel that sovereignty is all there is for me,  even combined with worthless others, is not an attitude that i will adopt,  nor an emotion that i can feel,  nor a story that i will tell, nor does it match what i see happening in the world. 

I think i mentioned to you before you went to the festival, we need to focus on the identity of what we all connect to in common.   You seem to use your version of an absence of that identify to justify much of your story.  Much of that verison i use myself in my story … but i drill down a bit to the next level of detail.  I don’t like to keep that kind of stuff vague and think it communicates to myself or to others if i just wave at it.   If we bury that focus here it will be too easily obstructed by static … maybe you (or i) will start a new thought where we can focus on what is universal and what is multiversal, and to whom, and relative to what.

Seth says
… and others will just bite the glory of their own ego cookies.  

seriously, Steiner talked about that too along with other pitfalls that a person needed to avoid to become enlightened.  You might not recognized it as such since that part is  woven deep in my story (which is too long to tell here) and Abraham and Bentinho Massaro and Tony Robbins and Ayn Rand apparently did not make those same connections in the stories they tell you for their fun and profit.    

Si says
 I'm confused about how you're using the word worthless. It almost seems as if you are thinking the multi-verse model allows worthlessness. It is the exact opposite of that. In the multi-verse model it is not even possible to think of someone being worthless. Thinking such would be the exact same thing it's cutting off part of your own body.

it is only in the universe model that value of others, and self, is even considered.   That is why true love, true cooperation of otherness, and harmony is only actually available in the multi-verse model. The universe model was created by us so that we could experience dis harmony.  Disharmony, worthlessness, and all manner of negative emotions are not a natural part of the multi-verse at all. 

Seth says
good point.   but then your proposition: “There is only one life that matters … yours” does not obtain.  necessarily, if something does not matter to someone, then it is worthless to them.  that is why we started using the word “worthless”.  

new…  like i mentioned,  we need to focus on the details that distinguish “the universe model” and your “multi-verse” model.  the sui generis conclusions in your last paragraph do not obtain in my understanding … they seem quite convenient  to yours. 

Seth says
mixing 2.0 and 3.0 dialouge becomes quite silly laugh.    when it was just mark and me talking, and mark for whatever reason refused to keep in 3.0, i switched back to 2.0 so that the flow would look somewhat coherant later on.   Mark since nathan is talking in 3.0 now as well,  can we revisit that?

Mark de LA says
Comments here are a munge – jumbled – suck threaded ...
Worthlessness is determined by your values & how yours are ordered & an unknown factor or two to be described later … something on my list may not be on your list; something on my list may be higher or lower on your list – a different order for sure r – not a mystery – not a problem

Mark de LA says
Mark de LA 2016-07-21 19:11:28 [item 18788#54547]
Sounds a lot like intellectualization without any passion for anything except bloviating one’s own ideas. Still a snoozer 
Mark de LA 2016-07-22 06:35:54 [item 18788#54556]
cool

Mark de LA says
maybe make the 2.0 in the header a toggle from/to 3.0 so we don’t have to chase the button in fbi to get there.

Seth says
or maybe just switch over to 3.0 and cut 2.0 loose.  most of the confusion is happening because the system automatically switches you back to 2.0 when you open a new tab.   3.0 is totally superior … but if you are confused and are thinking in 2.0 … it looks munged.

Seth says

Worthlessness is determined by your values & how yours are ordered & an unknown factor or two to be described later … something on my list may not be on your list; something on my list may be higher or lower on your list – a different order for sure r – not a mystery – not a problem

mark

yep, value is subjective … something chosen inside one being, wherever she believes her boundary exists. 

i think we all can agree on that regardless of any other consideration. 
 

Mark de LA says
I think subjectiveness is just a red-herring. What else could it be? I was talking about my values & you would be talking about your values.  How you get them, arrive at them, may be another discussion.  For one thing, they change & order differently over time & as we grow older. One of the factors TR never talked about was whether the values we elicit in contemplation are the ones we actually have or the ones we think we should have or want to have to achieve some purpose. His latest “date with destiny” was a NOW kind of value expression. I found one this AM which surprised me that has been there all the time & yet is not on my list. It showed up as I contemplated “What am I being right now?”. The question yielded another question “If I had to choose the top of my order independently of previous values what would it be?” – friend of human being maybe, eh?

Seth says
to say “values are subjective” is just to say the same things you, and even nathan, have said about values.  “subjective” is just the description that is commonly used to describe something that is particular only inside one individual … in other words they choose it themselves … it is not given by some universal domain.

me, i feel myself more than just a “friend” of human being … but yes, it is way up on top of my list.

Mark de LA says

Mark de LA says
I choose my wording so as not to repeat GW’s motto & yet it was heavily influenced by it. 
pondering waw

Seth says
What was GW’s motto?

Seth says

Si says

Si says
Well, there is no such thing as objective. Objective is the artifact we created when we all decided to narrow thinking down to the universe model in order for the possibility of dissociative experiences to exist. In true reality, there is no such thing as objective.

Si says

Mark de LA says
Nothing is objective – I scratch my ass & N sneezes! 

Seth says
There certainly is such as characteristic called “objective” … there is a spectrum from objective to subjective.  This is demonstrable … all that is necessary is to agree on a testable definition of “objective” … then any belief or value or ideal can be classified as being somewhere on that  spectrum.   Whether people think they live in isolated multiverses or the simpler single universe, they can still agree on what is subjective to one person, or objective and shared by many.   That is assuming they have not already decided not to agree laugh.  For example “the sun will rise tomorrow morning”.  

Si says
 Yes, the sun will rise tomorrow because we both agree that well. But it does not have to, it does because we have set up a whole bunch of agreements like that. Objective also exist. We created objective as well. But objective is not an aspect of reality, it is an aspect of agreement about the kind of reality we are going to share.

Seth says
well we call things that we reliably agree upon, “objective”.   the more people agree, the more it is called “objective”. 

But let’s put the horse before the cart.  We don’t usually change objective happenings  merely by changing what we agree upon.  It does not work that way.   For example if suddenly hundreds of people agreed with all possible force of their belief that the sun would not rise tomorrow, it would still rise.  But i will concede those particular hundreds of people might not perceive it rising … such is the force of belief on subjective human perception … but their belief,  would not effect the objective rotation of the Earth or the light impinging on it from Saul in the slightest.  Others, not participating in the subjective believing, thinking it silly to pit their minds against celestial events, would still see   the sunrise.  

We can change what we experience subjectively by changing our beliefs … but we cannot change what happens outside ourselves, unless we act  with our deeds on the outside world to the effect of our beliefs.      

Si says
 Sure would! If one person believes it doesn't rise to the truth that it doesn't then for that person they have changed the entire reality such that the sun does not rise.  I have quantum jumped to many different realities where things are quite different.  Just because you keep the sun rising in your experience does not mean not rising in my experience is not complete reality. IMHO you are extremely  arrogant  to believe that your experience is my experience and that your experience is the right or one true one.

Seth says
Well i never said, or implied, “my experience is your experience, or that my experience is the one true one” and “what i think, believe, or even do has no causative effect on the sun rising”.   Hopefully you realize those are  just thoughts  you made up from inside yourself, having no connection to anything i believe, or to the rising of the sun.  I am curious, however … how did you came up with such ideas?

Incidentally the sentences “i flew to Arognast last night”, “Trump is going to make America great”, and “Obi-Wan Kenobi controls droids with his mind”  are just as useful to our common beliefs as yours about your quantum jumps. 

Si says
Wow!  You sure did imply both of those by anyway I can read it.  You implied that 100 people not having the sunrise were ignoring reality, namely yours, and even implied that they were imagining something, and their experience was not real, and that your experience which happened to align with more than 100 people was the reality. I can't imagine something more arrogant than that!  You think that your experience is the only true experience anyone not having that experience is not having a valid experience.  How could one define arrogance more effectively than exactly than that?

 to your credit, arrogance is another one of the properties that is used to create the artificial bubble that we commonly call her universe.  You do have it in abundance when it comes to reality!

Seth says
ok, fair enough,  but i did not use the terms “reality” or “real” which are way to vague to be useful at this level of detail.   i prefer the terms “experience”,  “belief” and “agreement” … i think we both know what these are with no ambiguity.

So sure i can see that as far as we must only rely on our own experience, beliefs, and agreements among each other’s beliefs, there is no way to establish an “authoritative or singular set of beliefs” and dub what those beliefs represent  “objective existence”.  

I want to go beyond that, but it’s gonna take some thought and i got to get some stuff to some places before i can.

Si says

Si says
Yes Mark. Tally that. ?

Seth says
i’m continueing thinking about this in “A new ontology

Si says

Mark de LA says
Such a benign group of individuals exercising their identity:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/07/29/moment-silence-for-fallen-cops-marred-by-jeering-at-dnc-convention.html 

Mark de LA says
Ran into this Bill Ayers bible (someone else wrote) https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/my-drive 
Now the UN calls for reparations, eh? Follow the Money ← who said that? (
The Geneva conventions however forbid collective punishment – go figure? 

 

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