Thinking is the same as talking or writing

About: Critical Thinking 2 - comment 55679

Comment by Seth ~
inner conversations and external conversations are the same thing”.  the only difference is:  the former is accessible only to the being conversing, and the latter is accessible to anyone  in earshot.
in other words, thinking to your self, is the same thing as talking or writing in public.  the only difference is your audience … and, of course, the media in which the conversing is taking place.
the toothless foodie mixing something up with you

Tags

  1. thinking
  2. talking
  3. writing

Comments


Seth says
because they are the same behavior except for the distinctions that i mentioned.

Can you think of any distinctions that i did not cover?

Si says
That hangs together very will with LOA … which says that it is your thoughts that actually obtain, not your deeds or circumstances. Deeds, circumstances, etc are simply the reflection of the “entire” world of your thoughts … more like a movie you are watching that reflects the current state of your being … and your being’s state is the result of your thoughts.

Hence, there is no real difference between thinking ill of someone and saying it to them. Both determine your state of being, and has the same effect on the circumstances you will experience in regard to that person. Though the exact circumstances will likely be different to match your beliefs, the overall effect will be the same.

Si says
Ug … 2.0 munge threw the comments out. Will have to use the new show-delete feature under the cool menu to see the sequences.

Mark de LA says
Well it would have been nice to have a “do you want to leave this page” feature because I lost my argument that they are all different. Why munge them.  When I clothe an idea in words that is one kind of thing – perhaps at the door of the spiritual. When I argue at your munging that is for the purpose of persuading or arguing.  When I talk to myself I am the least guarded (Dear Diary …. ) .  When I am a selfie in public I may fly loose & easy with the truth – especially in group politics. Thinking & hearing & speech etc are different senses. Multiply that by degrees of consciousness & the munge transforms into distinctions. Enjoy or not.


When I have a live audience I try to use language they can understand; notwithstanding I may want to bullshit them.
 

Seth says
thoughts “obtain” only for the people who feel that they are true.  deeds and circumstances happen to those affected by the deed or circumstance.  that is objectively demonstrable. 

sounds to me that Nathan is telling himself a story. 

Mark de LA says
Did Seth say anything? Is it true? The intransitive verb “obtain” never leaves a trace for me. 

Seth says
well classically “obtain” means that the world is constituted such that the sentence rings true to the person thinking the thought.   but quite frankly we are defining what it means right here.  apparently nathan has quite a radically different way of thinking what “obtains” means … quite very different than mine.

Mark de LA says
I’ve looked it up several times.  GW was the only one who used it in my history. It is OK with me if I flush it. wink

Seth says
for example, see how a logic professor uses this concept …
 

Look: to say something (a sentence) is true, is to say that the world is so arranged that it - the sentence - comes out true when you test it against the world. To say it is not true, is to say that world is not so arranged.

Patrick John Hayes professor of Logic

of course, i  translate that to truth relative to a beholder.  a classical logician would not tolerate such ← however on rereading Pat’s paragraph, me thinks it implies my relative truth anyway … after all he said “when you test it” wink

Mark de LA says
I bypass it all & say (like GW) that when language agrees with what IS! it is true.

Seth says
except there is not way of knowing “what is” apart from your own experience … so there is no practical way to use that notion beyond what i said above.

Mark de LA says
That is your belief system showing up. laughing

Seth says

Seth says
Seth 2016-08-05 09:30:17 [item 21232#55692]
which is something that i have wanted to say for a long time, thanks to Markโ€™s provocative thought i said it, and thanks to Nathanโ€™s forking feature,  i easily said it in my own mind smug โ€ฆ kudos all around thumbs up
Mark de LA 2016-08-05 09:45:22 [item 21232#55695]
Why call them the same they are fine as distinctions. 
well it was my point that all of those things you do in public,  you also do to yourself in private.  they are the same things.  so if you get in the habit of always writing true sentences in public,  that same habit will carry into what you do to yourself in private.   or lets say you always look for a joke in any situation in public, then you will be doing that same habit in private to yourself.   i could go on and on … i clame it is just the very same thing.   ← incidentally i am recounting my own experience here,  i doubt that you will find that in a book said the same way. 

strangely enough i thought this is what you had discovered this morning about PR’s podcast … translated of course to my own mind … but maybe what you discovered was something quite differet.  i have no idea.

Mark de LA says
Like I said – enjoy the munge thumbs uplaughing Some tone-deaf people can’t tell the difference between an A-sharp & a B-flat. 

Seth says
i did point out the differences.  did i miss any?

Mark de LA says
… then get rid of the idea that they are all the same; my tone-deaf analogy still standing tall! smug

Seth says
i don’t understand what you are saying to me.   they are the same except for the differences.  what differences did i miss?

Mark de LA says
Did you really say anything with “they are the same except for differences” ?????????? – applies to anything.  NLP sorting metaprogram “sameness with difference” .

Seth says
Here is another example of how they are the same :  

    1) talking   about something does not make it happen …
    2) thinking about something does not make it happen. 

Nathan will probably disagree, but in any case that has been my experience.

Seth says
and yes i really did say  something here … the world would be a quite different place, if 1 & 2 above did not obtain for most people. 

Mark de LA says
If everyone has their own truth then why the hell should I care about yours? I have no problems with that which IS!

Si says
Yes exactly, why should you? You should be caring about your excitement … then everything you do, and everything someone else who is caring about their excitement do, will be in perfect harmony.

Caring about someone elseโ€™s truth will just tangle you up in things you can’t do anything about. You can’t live their life, only yours. You can’t follow thier truths, only yours.  

Mark de LA says
& , not giving a shit about what you say I am free to ignore it or beat it up or …. smug

Seth says

Seth says
re mark’s:  “Thinking & hearing & speech etc are different senses.”

thinking and speaking are things that you do … unlike hearing with involves sensing from outside yourself.   in fact that is one way that thinking and speaking are the same … unlike hearing, which is different. 

Si says
Yes, and so then you do agree. wink

Mark de LA says
I go by GW’s 12 sense description which has thought, speech & hearing as separate senses. Note that Ego & Life are also a senses. Read the beginning ¶ which separates them into the 5 soul, 4 body & 3 spiritual senses.
These are not all there are. 

 

Mark de LA says
.. strangely enough NO – just extrapolating from what I believe your stated views are.  Check out the 12 senses I just posted or consult RS.

Si says
That’s cool, and may be a useful distinction for some kinds of things. Right now, as a culture, we are working the sense we call emotions. During the last era, which peeked around 1900, emotions were completely devalued. People were told, as they grew up, that emotions were something to suppress and had no real value, other than maybe making love, and even that was downplayed. Intellect was king and if one couldn’t control their emotions with their intellect they were considered unintelligent and less than those who could.

Now, we are culturally re-learning that emotions are a very important “sense” and are telling us a lot about our reality and guiding us in it, as much or even more so than our other senses, like sight. You see this everywhere in our culture where being emotional is now considered to be a sign of maturity and children are encouraged to express their emotions fully whereas, even when I grew up, children were encouraged to suppress emotions. As we culturally re-learn how to use our emotional sense things will swing far to the other side. That is normal. Eventually they will come back and settle in the best relationship to all our senses.

The emotion of excitement is a key component in this re-learning. Watch for it. You will hear about it and see it in culture far outside of my musings. smiley

 

Mark de LA says
pondering Sounds like the pussy generation is coming out of the closet.  One thing I will give you it the similarity of your vortex/focus-wheel stuff to a train of feelings which is analogous to a train of thought. 
Might be useful independent of the silly ontology.

Si says

Si says
Yep I agree. It’s never the ontology, it’s what you actually do that matters. The ontology just helps you get in the mood to do it … kind of like going to a health club helps you get in the mood to exercise. And there are many ontology’s, just like there are many heath clubs. You choose. smiley

Mark de LA says
Yep your ontology is LOA, multiverses etc.  Doesn’t matter .  It’s what you say & do. Maybe quit spouting them . 

Seth says
well your authority on that nowwistanding mark,  there is no sensing (taking in information from outside yourself) going on when all you are doing is thinking … or talking for that matter … or writing.  taking in information from outside yourself is my criteria for calling a process a sense.

Mark de LA says
It is not information until you cognize it. It is just sensation. smug

Si says
Don’t feel so self important about it. I don’t spout it, I live it 24/7 and talk like I talk to you to everyone. It’s just me. I even talk the same to my bosses here. At first they were taken aback, now they are on board happily as they are seeing the results. It’s contagious for those anywhere near in range, because it all works so well and so quickly. Life changes, for the better. Work changes. Relationships change. Health changes. All so quickly that it seems magical … but it’s simply like attracting like as you DO the things than tune your thoughts.

So don’t be taken aback. I am not singling you out … you are simply resistant so it feels like I am. I really talk like this to everyone, even my Dad now. smiley

Seth says
i agree emotions are very important … and not to be discounted.  but they are not a sense by my criteria, which says they do not take in information from outside one’s self.  but shucks, you are free to choose whatever criteria works for you to call something a “sense”.

Seth says
that is true.  point is the process starts with signals comming from outside yourself.

Seth says
yes … wow, first time i heard you say recently, “it’s what you actually do that matters”.  ← something that i experience too.  ontology is just the nuts and bolts of thinking.  thinking and speking and writing does not do anything.   the doing of deeds is in quite a more important dimension. 

Seth says

Seth says
i like, “(1) do the things in tune with your thoughts” …. heart … also (2)  in tune with your heart … also (3) in tune with what is happening outside yourself.  ← except when  (3) conflicts with 1 and/or 2   ← omg, the laws of robots rear their ugly head laugh.

Si says
Clearly emotions have many relationships to what is outside one’s self. Many come in response to others, even when the others are a long way off and not available to any other senses. Like when Natalie knew I crashed the motorcycle. What then are emotions telling you of?

Seth says
incidentally it does not make much difference what you associate with the word “senses” … what makes a practical difference is the nature of the spirits themselves.  some of those 12  start with signals from outside yourself … some do not.  GW has painted a great mosaic of associations … nice opus indeed.  how does it get us any closer to seeing the similarities between thinking and speaking?  Are you not reifying the model?

Si says
Conversation forked to thought 21233

Seth says
pondering hmmm … so you are admitting that others can affect your emotions?  that is pretty kewl,  and  yes i agree, “my emotions have a relationship to what is outside myself”.   but they seem to come from inside … they are my experience …”i am suppose to create 100% of my experience”, remember?    do we have a paradox here or what?

Si says
Yes. I have always said and say it over and over again that others exist and affect us. That is completely separate from creating our reality. When others affect us, it changes what we create in our reality experience … but it is still all our creation at the point where we experience it.

Mark de LA says
Then too, d’A hardly ever writes a comment/item not promoting his LOA stuff. 

Mark de LA says
It doesn’t.  You are the one munging thinking & speaking. I say when you clothe an idea or a thought in language you are using your sense of language which he calls speaking.

Mark de LA says
It is what you do that may depend upon your ontology. Falling on a grenade to save your comrades in battle takes on different “meanings” to you depending upon your explanation of what is going on – how you hold things in what context – your ontology. 

Si says

Si says
It’s that you think of it as promoting that is tripping you up. I am “living it”. When you realize that, then you can just see it as what I am and how I live and not get your rainbow panties in a twist about it.  

You comment all the time from “how you live”. It happens to be that “how you live” is very similar to how most people in your awareness live … I may be one of the major exceptions … and this is how I live and how I talk to others I am around. You talk about politics and world events and things like that. I talk about LOA and multiverses and quantum jumping and the meaning of life, the multiverse, and everything and things like that. No diff, except the content we each focus on.

Si says
 You first.  

Seth says
and i say “when you clothe an idea or a thought in language, you are” following a habit of associating meaning to word. 

so by my reckoning, language is  a habit of making specific associations.  then we  mimic the habits of others when we hear them make those associations … the “hearing” being the only part where  something comes from outside the self.   i do believe that model is consistent with much of modern thinking about how human language works. 

and then too our being is so constituted to pick up the associations very rapidly at a certain age … i have always thought that specific proclivity of our being to pick up those associations, was in fact what GW referred to as a sense.  again that nature is inside our being, and not something that comes from an outside signal.

apparently you are running on a different model.  fun smiley, huh?

Mark de LA says
Whatever explanation gets your rocks off! thumbs up

Mark de LA says
Nope.  I sense a thought & often times I don’t have words to describe it until I tweak some mental muscle & clothe it in words.  I call that the sense of language fitting the clothing of words onto an idea. The thought for me occurs first without words. When I read your words sometimes there appears an idea & other times not.  Abstractness generates very little.

Mark de LA says
You see ( or not ) that I know what I am doing with thoughts & language. Your own language, perhaps aimed at some abstract exercise or thin rg (right game) is not useful to my processes. Enjoy the glow of whatever they produce. thumbs uprose

Si says
Exactly! Find things you love in life and enjoy them! I could not have said it better … that’s living to your highest potential.    

Si says

Seth says
seems to me you are just just singeling one particular domino failing to get all the credit
…  er, why not the first one?
 

 

Si says
Conversation forked to thought 21235

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