Individual meets collective - comment 58154

Seth says ...
nope, i never said “i believe my self”.   i do however believe that my insides/outsides model of the dynamics of what is happening gives me an accurat understanding of my self.

 i interpert the rest of your comment as a simple expression that you don’t want to delve deeper into this matter … and thanks for confirming that explicitidly in your subsequent response to this thread.

Tags

  1. belief
  2. models
  3. bolus

Comments


Seth says
nice try dude null … SiriTD helps us to go deeper again thumbs upnull

Mark de LA says
but me, i believe that my self is real … it is just not tied and feathered to a fixed buoy ← that is the illusion.
Yo – Dude – you ignored that I went back & corrected the statement! Siri is shit for discovering that. Also I hid the statement of yours so as to not confuse, but you went on anyway forking yourself to be right, eh? Enjoy trying & arguing.

Seth says
Well i still do not see where you see a contradiction in what i have said. 

Here i will try to be even more explicit in this context ...

I believe there is a membrane … or a process that filters … between my insides (me) and that which is not me, that which is outside me.   That does not imply that all that exists inside of me, all my experiences etc, is all just beliefs.  

And i also believe that this membrane … this filter … is not just a little bit movable … i can move it … and just according to my energy level include more and more.  

But the membrane, the filter itself, I experienced as real … it is my reality, my experience … i can not honestly deny it with my thoughts.

It is really very simple. 

Mark de LA says
Still  with the whole back-&-forth of this one.  Even though you forked yourself on it.

Seth says
well if you would just explain where there is a contradiction in the philosophy i stated, maybe there would be no back and forth, maybe we would rather end up with understanding.

Si says
The common human idea is that the outsides, what is experienced through the senses, is what is real, and the inside, emotions, intuition etc., are just our own interpretations upon what is real.

In fact, it is more likely to be the opposite.  

Mark de LA says
XOR something entirely different.  Get rid of prepositions & contemplate/grok what’s so. Throw out the first 100 answers & keep going. 
… & keep it to yourselves. null

Si says
Why keep it to ourselves? What do you want us to do? Just contemplate our naval? Or yours?

Mark de LA says
Neither – when contemplating to publish one has an audience – that prejudices the results. null

Seth says
i experience interacting with others, and i experience changes in my own being.   both are real experiences to me.  there is no reason for me to disbelieve, or downgrade into mere illusion or vicariousness,  the one in favor of the other. 

Seth says

Seth says
null hmmm …. mark’s observation is an interesting one indeed … and it is true null

it is a specific case of one of mine … “Representing something changes my awareness of it

Si says
And that is exactly what we often do. That’s why LOA has so much to say about “staying in your own business” because it’s our “playing to the audience of others, in our own heads”, that so often trips us up in life. It’s our production, we should not be playing to anyone, we should be having the experience we are producing. LOA is very clear and repetitive on this.

Seth says

Si says
Why downgrade? Why can’t both together be the “whole experience”? It is only a matter of factoring which comes first, that’s all.

Tipically people think the outside, through the senses, comes first and the inside is a response to that. We are only switching those saying the inside is the first information and the outside is the follow up representation of what is going on inside. We are saying that thoughts come first, then sensory information, including emotions, which are a sense channel, come next.

Nothing is be devalued, only the order of things is changing.

Seth says
okay, null that is kewl null null null  … a new way of looking at it … it is all a whole experience … neither is to be called an illusion or to be downgraded.  

as to which came first … null … our choice … our freedom … and not necessarily always the same.

Seth says

Si says
Well, if sensory information comes first, it has to be the “universe model” and if thoughts come first it is LOA and the “multi-verse model”. 

Since I have learned how to play in the multi-verse, and have repetitively experienced sensory experience and circumstances following nothing but changes in thought, I know for sure which one comes first, for myself.  

Seth says
me, i tend not to “play to the audience” … rather i give them what me in particular want them to have.  but i have done it at times the other way … er in a way … more like finding a space where they want what i want to give them null … i play that with denise all the time … works … but people, in general, are stubborn and will not bow to my thoughts.

Si says

but people, in general, are stubborn and do not bow to my thoughts ~ @seth

and so it is, for you hold that belief. I have known individuals who have different beliefs and get different results. Some of those individuals have beliefs like “people, in general, do what I wish” and for those individuals, I observe that most people around them do exactly what they wish.

I have noticed that individuals who grow up in opulence, you know, rich kids, often have beliefs about how the people around them respond to their own thoughts that are quite different than individuals who grow up in the middle or lower classes … and so things happen differently for them.

The multi-verse does not care if you believe your thoughts affect your experience of what others do, or not. The multi-verse simply provides the experience you believe in, and are comfortable with.

You can see this truth, not by examining your own experience, for that is all about your beliefs, but by examining the wide range of experiences others are having, far away from your own sphere of similar people, and noticing how those experiences are very different and often conflict wildly in what happens based on your, and others around you, ideas and thoughts … but that always, they match what that individual truly believes.  

Seth says
i can think a thought first and then it happens … but only in the cases where it was going to happen anyway.  then i call it a “prediction”.   And, of course, i can make things happen myself, after i think them,  with my own deeds.  

But in general i cannot intentionally think a specific free thought and then it just happen.   i can not do it.

Of course that is just me … doesn’t mean i believe you can not do it  null

Si says
You believe that is true for you, and so it is. See thought 21438#58264.

And while you are there, mouse over the comment reference at the top of the comment and notice how easy it is to grab references.  

Seth says

Seth says
hmmm ….

@nathan,

i think it is a matter of where you put your slider switch.   I noticed i could create a room where i was in total control and could predict what happened in the room.  I could read the tea leaves and unfold them myself.   I did it in San Francisco on Van Ness avenue … er, untill i let in a couple of hippy girls  mark had brought to town in his firebird.  Then i lost control.    I’ve done it in my kitchen here in Renton … even when denise terrorizes it, the known coherence remains.  

So i see no reason a high energy person, like yourself who are good at that sort of thing, can do that with their entire life.  I believe you when you say it is you playing the movie into your senses.  That is exactly how it can feel. 

Seth says
nullnull and then can i past it ? thought 21438#58264 ← ah yes i can null

Si says
SeriTD noticed that somebody wanted that feature. I’m not even sure who it was, it wasn’t me. She just had me make it.  

Seth says
i think “i believe it is true for me, and so it is” is quite a bit more complex and sensitive than your flat general statement bespeaks. 

Seth says
it was me … i wanted it … thank you SiriTD nullnull

Si says
Well, I don’t have that belief at all! For me it is so simple and straight forward. I believe that what you believe is … and so for me, it is!

There is nothing complex about that at all … it is so simple and I see it everywhere no matter how far I look.  

Si says

Seth says
huh? …. you don’t have what belief?

Si says
The one you expressed in thought 21438#58273.

You said it is complicated .. I don’t believe that at all. It is ridiculously simple!  

Mark de LA says
It is even simpler when you say God does it or it’s God’s plan that …… 
… no need to believe (except maybe in God) 
null

Si says
True @mark, so I don’t say that. I say things like “the multi-verse doesn’t care” which firstly does not invoke God, but only your own belief systems … and secondly, is not about taking something on faith, but rather about how whatever you think is so, no matter what it is … no faith or belief in a plan or what is right or wrong or expected required … it’s all your story.

Si says

Seth says
but my statement was saying the same thing as you did:  “You believe that is true for you, and so it is.”  in thought 21438#58266.   I merely restated it from my point of view.   seems that one of us is confused about what we are saying to the other person.

Si says
I was only responding to the part “complex and sensitive” which I don’t believe in any possible relationship to this subject. Nothing about all this that we are discussing today is complex or sensitive in the least … it’s all about as straight up and simple and easy to flow with as anything could be … or so I believe.  

Seth says
@mark,  i don’t like to credit old omnipotent men with white hair concocted by people eons ago who  i did not even know.   I rather just say,  “it happened”  ← of that i am sure, my Faith is strong.  And saying that is just as very specific as saying “God Did it” … er, it does say the same thing.

Si says
It’s my story and I’ll cry if I want to!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCPqaG8sVDE 

Seth says

Mark de LA says
tautology prevails!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)

– word piles tend to grow bigger! null


Si says
LOL … not even wikipedia understands your point of view! null

Mark de LA says
try the definition – both are present. 
The bunny pile keeps on growing & growing & growing …. null

Si says
… and I personally am experiencing a reduction in the piles of different words. @seth and I have found many reductions, and even you and I @mark, have reduced quite a bit between us … though I am sure your beliefs won’t allow you to experience that directly!  

Mark de LA says
FYI, I don’t think of God as a bearded white guy sitting on a throne somewhere in the sky or whatever your image conjures @seth null – nor am I afraid of old bearded white guys. null

Mark de LA says
& growing & growing & mismatching & … null Siri can’t count anyway. 

Seth says
okay @nathan, i get what you are saying.   You say it is simple … just LOA … and you believe that, and so it is simple for you.   I say it is complex and sensitive … (which are not really the words that express it ... i had to put the “sensitive” in there because “complex” alone did not capture  it, but my term is ambiguous enough so one could imagine this peculiar-not-simple situation) …. and so it is complex-sensitive for me.   That hangs together well, and i agree.

Si says
p.s. @mark, I prefer wikipedia to a dictionary. Wikipedia is curated by Gods, not mere men. Anything with complex enough input such that one person, or a small group, can’t dominate it is curated by infinite intelligence, like youtube too for instance … the article on the dark side of wikipedia not withstanding … it only applies to a few small concepts where people are in gridlock about something. The bulk of wikipedia is free flowing God thought.  

Seth says

Si says

Seth says

Seth says

Seth says
hmmm …. quite a mouthful  about “Wikipedia is curated by Gods” … i might tend to agree … but would need to translate it to my new terms …. “Wikipedia is curated by what happens” ← see how that works? … me thinks even Mark will have to agree … er, that is if he can agree … we do not know … have yet to experience that happening ← tong in cheek null, ok ok?

Mark de LA says
Apparently sometimes the pile gets topped off with pure shit! See thought 21438#58295 null
& the bollus keeps on rolling thought 21367#58065 

Si says
Conversation forked to thought 21449

Si says

Mark de LA says
Fork yourself to a different context & keep on munging. Shifting context or removing it entirely tends toward prevarication. (***null

Si says
WTF @mark? Why are you being such an asshole?

Mark de LA says
More bolus dear neph? null

Si says
Well, it’s up to @seth to curate this shit if he want’s to.
It sure brought the incoming stream of information to a screeching halt, put it out of vibrational reach … maybe that is exactly what @mark wants.

Mark de LA says
Nope just your already-always name-calling, @cunt null (*)

Seth says
combining words into sentences and sentences into paragraphs and paragraphs into thoughts is what writers do … it is our art … we create entire worlds in the process …. frequently readers appreciate our opuses.  pissing on the words is like pissing on the notes and scales and harmonies of a musical composer.  

going beyond words and any even beyond any representations is great … do it just as you will … but if you want to talk to others … even about that …  you will need to swim in this language media … please do not keep pissing in the pool !!

Mark de LA says
One man’s disagreement or mismatching is another man’s pissing – just more of the automaticity of RWG – just more context shifting. Enjoy agreeing sessions, dudes. I have more interesting thoughts this AM. 

Seth says
and how are you expressing your thoughts, @mark ?

Mark de LA says
I use the “free speech” meme – free to agree (& I have) or disagree or respond in kind like when N calls me names I have some to call him as well. Any other innuendo not worth a comment.

Seth says
well that was not what i was talking about.  i was talking about your incessant pissing on language.  for example every time you use the term “pile of words” your are disrespecting the very media in which i am thinking.  like here thought 21438#58301

Mark de LA says
Yep you just pissed on a distinction of mine!  Enjoy the flow:
null automaticity prevails.

Mark de LA says
I will confess this.  Since I was a child I didn’t really like to read.  As an adult I read for content or to learn something I don’t already have a full grasp of.  In school all the reading material including history was boring stuff – all a pile of words to me.  I passed all the English courses with A’s though. 
Fast forward to FBI – the abstractions & jockeying for authorship of some contexts & incessant LOA reframes & argumentation ( I never liked debate societies either) – even though GW was in one & perhaps @seth . I can grasp ideas really quickly.  I get a head full each AM in my contemplation; 3 new ones this AM related to time & change. To me weeding out the words to the core ideas is tiresome. I learn more quickly & probably have thought of most of them here already. I passed subject A at UCLA proving I could write a 500 word essay (hand written) that made sense to the examination staff in a short amount of time ~ 1hr. ; complete with grammar & punctuation correct as of that time.
Your ontologies, while amusing, only prove your points-of-view to yourselves since they claim from one time to another that we are all living in our own worlds to we are all one mind to ???? multiverses & universes included. 
I invite you folks to go for more substance – (in style) more Hemingway – less Joyce. 

Si says
That’s fine @mark. I am happy to accept you as you say you are in how you relate to words.

All I am asking is that you don’t send the hate you have for words and other peoples exploration using words “our way”. Think about what RS said about hate. And even if you don’t think your perspective about words is hateful, look at the words you write that are dripping in hate. Wherever that comes from, please don’t send it “our” way.

Thanks!  

and p.s. – I am quite happy exploring things the way I do, Joyce or whatever it is. Why can’t I be me and do what I like without being hated for it? I am not Hemmingway or Joyce … I am Nathan and I do what I do, not what they did.

Mark de LA says
Yep.  Somewhere I expressed already that the dynamics here seem to be nobody listening or listening (reading) to each other just  long enough to trigger a response & return a comment. Your hate is just your own reflection. I don’t think you really got what I said. 

 

Si says
Please point to the comment where you said something you wanted me to get, earlier. Clearly I got your last comment about words … what other comment has something you want responded to?

Mark de LA says
BTW, repetitious of another post a while back, I can tell when someone is listening to what I said & whether they understand it.  It is not the cute emoteys nor the positivity sounding words either!
thumbs upnullnull

Si says
Yes, so then please point to the comment you are talking about there. If you want to teach me how to hear you … show me.

Mark de LA says
Nah! The pattern is full … https://youtu.be/vdHBsWXaHN8?t=18 null
 

Si says
Well, for my part @mark, your first comment today on this thought was thought 21438#58280 and I responded very favorably to that … agreeing with you on how shoveling things to faith and God is not useful and further expanded on why I agree. I don’t see any other comments of yours, before thought 21438#58321 that were not simply punches (your unquiet with words?)

Mark de LA says
RWG pile increase:

Si says
Okay then, never mind. You said I am not hearing you. I am willing to try. Can’t do that without you though. Have to start somewhere, somewhere in words, the wind left behind by the rest of your hate comments is not enough to fill my sails with content to learn with.

Seth says

Seth says
i actually kind of understand you, @mark,  not wanting to read so many words all the time.  But is that not just you … your private affair ?   Me, i am totally into expressing the deepest things that i can in language and hearing other do the same.  Can you not just let me do that without having to suffer your hate of language rubbed upon me?  It actually hurts. 

Mark de LA says
I don’t hate! Try different words. I don’t have any control over you & what you write & visa-versa.null

Mark de LA says
BTW, an informal feeback I say you got only about 1/3 of what I wrote on the subject above. 

Si says
You have control over the words you write @mark, and the bulk of them are full of hate … maybe you don’t hate, but whomever writes your words for you writes hateful ones … however that happens.

Si says

Si says
1/3 is pretty good! Most references say 20% is above average. What did NLP say? That words were something like 15% of communication? It’s all we have here, words. If I’m getting 33% out of what you are writing, I’m a pretty amazing listener! Or @seth is, whomever you were talking to. I assumed both of us actually.   

Seth says
well i was relating to the part of what you said that affects me.  the rest of it i can only imagine and if you don’t express it in more detail, i will never ever know what that is all about.  interesting though it is.

what you say about language feels to me like you are hating what i am doing by using it.   seems to me @nathan feels the same way. 

Si says

Mark de LA says
Adios! Keep on rolling.

Si says
No words wasted there … all of them carefully crafted disrespect.

Seth says
Well i don’t think you are hearing me, @mark.  Let me put it to you more colorfully.    Suppose a person looses their ability to taste.  That does not give them the right to piss in the family soup.  If you have lost your hearing or appreciation or understanding of language, and perhaps even have gone beyond its need, then keep that to yourself please … it is your private affair and should not be continually made our concern.  There are kids playing with language here .. and having a lot of fun and truthful feelings doing it … who knows, maybe even to make it work better for others.  Who are you to piss in that soup !!  

Mark de LA says
If you get your head out of your ass maybe you world won’t smell like pissing because of the dick up front!  ← my colorfulness.  You still carrying her! ← cf old zen koan . I’ve lost the thread of this stuff. (5 hours ago) You guys resorted to name calling & off-color so you attract mine that way. Dis 4 dis! 
Likewise when you graffiti on mine.

Seth says
okay, whatever, mark.  anyway i said what i meant … it is all there in my last comment … if you honestly don’t know what i meant just search here for “pile” and/or “moung” and/or “birdie” and any other way you have refused to understand my words on their face value and instead just insulted me.   you know what i am saying, whether you play your little game with it or not.   My job here is done.

Mark de LA says

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