Trump's moral confusion

Transcript of Trump’s “unhinged” press conference in the Atlantic.

Seth says ...
except that i do not ignore the cause/effect #representative waves of karma … i connect those dots as i will with my story which i tell in sync or cacophony even with yours.  as best that i can i parse out independent cause even from the ripples which #represent it … and avoid comparing and conflating  independent causes.    The #AltLeft violence opposing #neoFacist  is  not to be compared with the agenda thrust of the #AltRight.  They are not morally equivalent … rather there is a moral choice between them.  They are two independent causes.   Pick your side and live with it.  Equating them is to perpetuate the #fallacy of #TuQuoque … a #propoganda statement that you and your friend #Trump do as if it was just okay even thought it is tantamont to moral confusion.


You missed the quote from Truman:

Truman distrusted regular soldiers and selected two National GuardsmenHarry H. Vaughan and Louis H. Renfrow, as his military aides.[4] Truman once remarked that he did not understand how the US Army could "produce men such as Robert E. LeeJohn J. PershingEisenhower and Bradley and at the same time produce CustersPattons and MacArthur."[5]

Nothing you said related to my points:
North Korea – 
Truman, democrat president from the south (Missouri) included Robert E. Lee as example of good generals.
You just ran your shit.

More like Seth’s moral confusion

well my moral confusion and Trumps’s are independant causes … the one does not reflect on the other … that is just more #TuQuoque.    That is exactly what i am saying above … yet you perputuate that propoganda again with your #RWG comment missing the story that i am telling.

Parse out different causes and deal with them (respect them) independently of each other … then me thinks more clarity will emerge … er along with more agreement and less turbulent fighting creating just #static and painful feeling against others and even violence.

well i responded directly to that in my comment Legacy - Truman, McArthur & Korea (comment 80258) … perhaps you did  not see (or agree) with the way i connected the dots … the pattern that i see that apparently you do not.  maybe try the practice of “reversal of signification” that you yourself discovered and you will see the pattern.  right now it is too deep for me to lay out both patterns and compare them and see how the one comes from the other or opposes it. 

certainly Truman fireing McAuthor was related in some way in your mind to these statue removals being perpetrated by the #AltLeft which is stimulating the adgenda of the  #AltRight … the media and even the republican leadership is telling an alternative story than is #Trump and the AltRitht.  We do have two narratives going here.  Me i do not side with #facist movements in America.  I will stand clearly and unappoligically against them.  You do what you will. – maybe look who helped accelerate the violence & had no permits. 

Anti-fascist groups have long protested globalization in Europe. These days in the U.S., antifa protestors are often bound by an opposition to capitalism. Some may also describe themselves as anarchists, people who question authority on principle.

Katy Steinmetz writing in Time
I call that #lumpism … opposing #facism in contemporary America is a pure cause that is not casually connected to anarchists and anti capitalist … those associations to antifa are made by the #facists.   I oppose #facism in America, yet i do not oppose capitalism, nor do i support anarchy.  But sure these things get all mixed up in the narrative … which is why i speak to keep them separate.

The confusion is strictly along the lines of what Rules for Radicals & Obama’s Community Organizing wants you to believe .  Unhack your brain XOR not – who cares?

so why were they there in the riot?

… er, cause and effect and confusion in the turbulence of the flow of #signs and #representations in our culture.  It is high time for us not to get caught up in that turbulence and rather swim to the shore.

in other words quit scrabbling and making #MisAssociations of others #signs.  Seek instead for the original associations of those people using them … er, do not call what you know i call “white”, “black” just because it sounds cute and titillates you to your core.

… shucks more of the #TuQuoque that you seem to love to swim in.

you are practicing a bit of “reversal of signification” when you call Robert E Lee an example of a “good general” … when those opposing his statues feel he is an example of “fighting to preserve slavery”.  Now certainly both associations can be made.  But you cannot change the associations made in others minds by violence.  Watch what the #facists were chanting as they marched with their KKK torches through the streets of #charlotsville … that is what was being opposed.

I was repeating the Truman quote against McvArthur provided in Wikipedia. Read what I write before running your shit!

& I actually read Alinsky & watched how Obama operates & he’s coming back soon!   Enjoy – get yourself a giant boner to celebrate him with! null

You said nothing! #barf

shucks i did say something … perhaps your inside context just doesn’t want to connect the dots that way in this  story that we are telling … or care enought to take the time to see that gestalt … or even rationally oppose it.  maybe high time you realized that is only reason you went #Barf.

Your language is all running on some kind of internal machine language unintelliglble to the outside world.  Maybe check it out with someone else besides me. It doesn’t speak to me, especially when you do not grok what I have quoted & run sideways on it.

well your perceptions of my language usage are actually true and i too can detect that same kind of thingey happening all over in our culture nullit is a result of the very structure and interaction of our separate minds.  it is that nature that i have been talking about when i talk about #duality and #signs and #representations and even #otherness. 

You knit the dots (#signs) together in the inside context of your mind … er, obviously i do the same.  Expecting to lift a concept deep inside my mind and have it ring true over there in your mind takes an effort and will to #sync and #agree … as opposed to an effort to defend those connections which are only inside yourself and mock and insult those which are otherness. 

Just slimy language intellectualizing a core of #RWG – dude, get real! Ask someone else to explain here what you are talking about.

There is a mathmatics related to what i am saying … check out R. V Guha’s seminal work on “lifting formula” from one context to another …

also …
Indeterminacy of translation. The indeterminacy of translation is a thesis propounded by 20th-century American analytic philosopher W. V. Quine. ... The last of these, not discussed here, refers to Quineโ€™s assessment that evidence alone does not dictate the choice of a scientific theory.

Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.

… yep, that is just saying that “the map is not the territory”. 

guess which part of a #sign is the map … (is the #representation)  … and which is that which cannot lie.  but it is not so much a lie, as merely a relfection of something within a peculiar context … er, usually a relfection of something inside your being which is really outside your being.  you certainly can manipulate the reflection but it may, or may not, match what is actually happening outside … which, me thinks, is why #ac called such a manipulation of a symbol,  a lie.

Too much alt-reality here for me. Adios!

Adios mark … but don’t forget that every person on this Earth has an “alt-reality” relative to your #reality … slide on down the slippery sloop of rejecting them all just as you will.

#SoYouSay  & #birdies abound prolifically !null 
I am on a quest to determine now what the prefix alt- means.
Perhaps the problem in #M$ocialMedia is the public has forgotten the being human aspect & just undertaken the #M$M  version of #Alt-Human  null – #DefiningDeviancyDown (XOR Up) to their special interest group levels. (***)
WOW! #stuff entered the fray on Wikipedia here. Xand here.
If I guessed it would have evolved from the old pre-Html days of email discussion groups (usenet) – a lot of them using alt…. prefixes on their name.  They functioned similar to twitter. At that time the alt signified that the main root of a name had already ben used. e.g. if there was a group named horseshit then one could create another named alt.horseshit. null

Well speaking the agreement of a group (or even proposing it) seems to be a thing that you can NOT tolerate … so you always call it out and mock it.  But many of us human people notice that it is part of leadership … it is an essintial mechinism of our social being and so it has become inherantly embedded in our speech.

“Alt” is now being use for “Alternative”.  Trump trying to propose the consensus of America spoke of the #AltLeft the first time i heard it … morally equating the #AltLeft with the #AltRight … saying that violently opposing #facism was just as morally unacceptable as the #facism itself.  He did not speak for me.

Defining Deviancy Down” (or up) is an interesting concept to use here … one context or mind (perhaps an old one) being forced to apply to a contemporary context or mind set.   But you cannot go home again … you cannot step in the same place in a river more than once.  You do not get outside of your own mind (er without expanding it to others).   For me these are all different examples of the same phenomena … a phenomena that you seem yet to notice … and so you mock it whenever it crops up.

Your first sentence is a double negative which is appropriate. The rest is #AltHorseshit . You know little about leadership.  I have a bigger experience in that both military & civilian. Those who lost the election & are causing the problems nowadays have no clue about leadership – mostly they are following, consciously or otherwise the Alinsky model. 

A lot of people have nothing to do in the long hot summer besides occupy their minds with alt.horseshit - the mainstream media & twitter likewise. It is called meme & illusion spinning. My Rx is to ignore the news & think of warm puppies!

Not willing to look history xor aligning with those who want to destroy it (ISIS, … ) & #MakeShitUp consider that Robin Hood defined deviancy (robbery) down so that it is applauded … stealing by the government from those who have it by those that don’t is now socially applauded & even demanded .  Assange, to some is a hero for disseminating classified material. NYTimes & others feel OK publishing such . Does freedom of the press include publishing classified information in spite of it’s illegal sourcing? 

Interesting twitter shit on Assange below. I like this one comment – didn’t read much more:

I guess some people just want organic, farm-to-table, fair-trade, gender-neutral, automated robot space-communism. I want to be free.

XOR …  null

Well Robin hood stole from the King who was oppressing “his” surfs.  in that context the King is like our current government… the surfs like our citizens.  I can well applaud that kind of revolution.  #wikileaks has become a channel making secrecy less effective in this modern digital age.  Me i also applaud the existence of that channel. 

Your first sentence proposed a context (or mind set)  from which you apparently wanted these matters to be  “considerd”  …

Not willing to look history xor aligning with those who want to destroy it (ISIS, … ) & #MakeShitUp 

but that is not a coherent context or mind set which i would ever adopt.  Perahps you knew that … perhaps you wished me to identify with it (or oppose it) … i do neither … because that context itself is just total propaganda.

WOW! you resorted to history – null you did ignore the tag “define deviancy down” & went sideways again.

Well what is deviant in one context may not be deviant in another.  Times change.  So does what is to be judged in  a culture to be deviant.  I suppose that if you assume that all ethical judgements should be made independent of the context of a culture … then speaking to change a deviancy (defining down) would be held as heretical.   But, me i make all my ethical choices within the broadest context that i can reasonably assemble from where i am in any moment in history.

Yep munge them away so that nothing is definite to anyone 
p.s. such eventually reverts back to the jungle (witness today’s happenings all over the news) – yea!

 #WoopieShit  survival of the fittest !  –

no #TuQuoque there – please adjust your brain or the #HashTurd

well anything about Obama or even “rules for radicals”  is certainly not about Trump’s refusal to be clear about #facists being a danger to American values … hence it is a distraction … a diversion.   speaking such is making the  logical fallacy which has the name here #TuQuoque.   Just like if a kid on the plaground complained you had a dirty face, and you retorted “so does you mama” … the one tort, however true or false,  having nothing to do with the other. 

Hmmm… no Obama in there – you brought it up. Trump has been very clear.  What the media & the libs hate, besides loosing the election, is that he included the antifa & other elements opposing from the left also in his hate groups.  Go back to Ferguson days & get the point.

mark, i have heard the narrative and understand it from both sides of the debate.   Almost everything out of Trump’s mouth was a distraction and a diversion from the real issue that was of vital concern to most of the citizens of America.  He did not speak for us.   Trump will not full throatadly disavow these "growing" facist movements just because at the heart of his own movement is the very same thing.  So what does he do instead?  He confuse the issue … he diverts to this being about Statues … or being just about those opposing racist facist  using violence.  Why does he do that … well just because he cannot actually be honest with America and tell us that, would that he could,  he would be an unapologetic Fascist notwistanding that being un-American.  He “diverts down” this  #facist deviance with most of the things he said during the campaign and now on twitter and in his continual political rallies.

Look at memeorandum today or even Durdge or what respected Republicans are saying … the narrative is changing. The only question being what Trump will do to distract his sheep from the growing shouts from the other side which will, if left to themselve, eventually drown out his whatever positive for America he can say or do.

You’ve been brainwashed with anti-Trump bullshit – good luck with that!

well changing the topic to me … instead of the topic at hand … is the same kind of dialogue #fallacy.  

My real point to you is not actually about Trump’s moral bancrupcy.   It is about using the arguing tactic of diverting the subject of focus to win, in your own eyes, an argument.   But that never ever really contrubutes to the conversation … rather it disrespects the conversation itself.    I sure wish that you would realize that using that tactic will never contribute to a greater consciousness between us.

Your posts & language simply reflects the leftist narrative as if your brain has been sucked-off by it. 
See: Free Speech null

And just to notice a Republican speaking with more moral clarity …

The favorite argument these days & in the past is to compare somebody to Hitler or call them a Nazi.  Go for it dude you folks convince only yourselves.null

There is a guy with real moral clarity that’s why they call him the sperminatornullnullnull

Losers of the last election still playing the game:

If there shouldn’t be a white nationalist rally why should there be black rallies like black lives matter or the notorious Louis Farrakhan Nation of Islam. Just wondering …. null

Well black lives matters is all about police killing people without due cause … it a specific grievance that needs to be corrected (or so the argument goes whether you agree with it or not).   it is quite a different thing than an agenda of race (or class) supremacy.   Just because whites are demonstrating in one case, and blacks in another, does not mean both causes are ethically the same, and should be compared or equated.  That comparison is a distraction and a diversion from the eithical question at hand.

The consciousness of America has, long ago, accepted that no race (or class) should dominate or suppress another.  The #AltRight wants to change that.  Trump should be clear which side of that consciousness he stands, with no diversion or distraction.  He should speak for the nation in that regard … or be soundly rejected by America as its spokesman.   #imho, of course.

Yep that’s your song and dance about it.  Try being human for a change & you can suffer all the slings & arrows of outrageous fortune of ALL HUMANS at once!  A bit like JC does.

You keep saying shit, but it is all the same song – grow up a bit:

I guess I haven’t said it loud enough for you to hear it!



me thinks the man protests too much null

while it is logically impossible for me to be, that which i am not … yet still #shareing and positive interaction with others, however different at whatever level of generality, sure seems to be what being human is all so very #conscious about … i #love it null.  

alternatively i have no idea what you are telling me to do … sorry, it tastes oogey like a strange concoction of scrambled eggs which only has a tangey taste in the context of a markonian mind.

Perhaps others are protesting too much & rioting as well.  Me(I) have professed yet again my long-standing stand on the subject.

samo – samo lumber along dude no new perspectives for your brain here:

← fiss Saag with a Strawberry Lassi at BombayGirll, Boise Idaho as i make this comment.

well the problem with your “being human  & suffering all the slings & arrows of outrageous fortune of ALL HUMANS at once” is that it is impossible to do and logically contradicts one of the very essences of being human” which is that each of us is unique and individual … we do not duplicate each other and to the extent that we express our unique individual beings is the very extent to which we are expressing the ultimate of “being human”.  The same goes for each one of our groups whether ethnic, racial, political, religious, military, or educational.   What we do when we are being human cannot really be generalized the way you propose without destroying its very essance.

Thats why we needed JC for the boost.  Can approach it . Essence of being human is not necessarily unique but love – devils & demons, angels & so forth are unique too.

well every single thing in the world is “unique” … no two thing are ever identical in all of their aspects and histories … so that was not the “mathematical” sense of the word that i meant to imply.

Picture, if you will, a intricate 3d puzzle made up with tiny pieces each balanced and fitting perfectly with each other, to hold in tension an intricate tapresy, a panaramic view  of some expanse.  Now ask how easy it would be to just lift out one piece from on such a puzzle and just plop it in another and have it support the same expansive view.  Well i am saying that the essence of your mind to my mind is of the nature of that intricate and unique distinctness.  More so than is customarily imagined.   So when you say, “Just glamorize being human” … “focus on that which is similar between us” … i say, well shucks that is not the essence of my being relative to your being that optains.

Yep, that’s whan #UniquenessAddict would say.  BTW, where did I say glamorize – must be you being unique again.,
Actually it is the distinction process that is prone to finding uniqueness .  Then too, in politics especially, it is identity process which tries to erase it.   play with that for a while! null

well sure, you exault that which is similar between us,  i that which is unique to each of us.  the one does tend to wipe out the other.  neither left to itself alone is that which makes up the essence of this human thing between us.

and now i start my trip back to Renton.

mark, your “sorting by differences, or sorting by similarities” does happen … i am sure i do both … but not at the same time. 

it’s interesting to note that the deeper one goes into an individual’s mind (sprit, soul, being … whatever) the more that mind will be different than any other … the closer one gets to the surface where things are already matched up with others, the more the mind will be similar.

now back in Renton on my big Mac null

carrying this deeper there is another aspect of deep inside compared to the otherness outside … and that is that i feel what is deep inside … the deeper inside the deeper the feeling … not so with outside otherness, there i must imagine,  empathize, and construct the feeling … one way or another.   if a feeling  is sourced inside subjectively it is direct and compelling … if it is from others it is indirect, the motivation coming through thought and reason.

so the over arching #humaity being (#Leviathan) is knit together by the weaker force coming from outside each of us via imagination and empathy and reason, rather than from direct engagement of feeling.


We should not celebrate the confederacy

in ignorance of that for which they fought.

Perhaps you missed that it was DEMOCRATS that opposed & voted against the Civil Rights legislation including Al Gore’s father. It was democrats in the form of Senator Robert Byrd (D West Virginia) a long serving senator until his death a few years ago (a KKK clan grand kleagle) – with his name all over the roads in the state & in places in DC.  It was a Republican (Lincoln) that ended it.
& then there was Strom Thermond who was confused & lastly switched parties to Republican.

What makes more sense is in Wikipedia this AM

Did you know...

Dunes of Abalos Undae
Dunes of Abalos Undae
  • ... that the Martian dunes of the Abalos Undae (pictured)may have formed from erosion of Rupes Tenuis, the polar scarp?

well that is a natural pattern … so what? … i do not yet grock the connection you are making.

It is all about making sense – neither does no the face of it. null

yeah, okay, that’s what i thought you were saying. 

strangely enough you saying that is even an example of the story that i am telling here … this gestalt is too deep inside me, for it to make any sense to you way inside yourself.   the pieces are too finely balanced deep in my mind to be lifted and fall in place deep inside yours.

Yeah IOW you don’t have me in deep hypnosis.  The M$M does that job quite well. null

well it is true that M$M (and even fringe media) repeat things incessantly and sure that can become like hypnosis … #trump does it from the other side … repeating his lies again and again so that eventually your side believes his propoganda that black is white.

me, i rarely say the same thing a second time … rather i try to say it better and in different contexts.

i would prefer if you tried to get it … rather than ragging on me for expressing it.  i guess you know already that is the  #fallacy of interaction called #AdHominem … and as interaction goes, does not move us away from #static
The difference to each individual person of what comes from deep inside from that which comes from the otherness of outside is something that might be a bit new even to you … me, i have never heard it talked about in our culture … but that does not mean that it is not significant.

You just repeat the losing party memes over & over pretending you are saying something intellectually different xor superior. Nowadays we are going through a Fahrenheit 451 moment.

All hail the mobcracy

– wikipedia  Ochlocracy

Not to be confused with cholos: (caution urban dictionary def,  might be considered derrogatory by some null


A cholo is term implying a Hispanic male that typically dresses in chinos (khahki pants), a wifebeater sleeveless teeshirt or a flannel shirt with only the top buttoned, a hairnet, or with a bandana around the forehead, usually halfway down over the eyes. Cholos often have black ink tattoos, commonly involving Catholic imagery, or calligraphy messages or family names. 

Cholos often drive low riders.
A farcical example of a cholo from the movies is Cheech, from Cheech and Chong.

mark, i am not arguing #Trump politics with you here … although you talk back to me as if i was.

Rather i am talking about why these propositions hit you internally so very different than they hit me.   We could be talking about any subject … the subject matter does not matter to what i am saying. 

If you want to get back on focus with me start back here ….

this gestalt is too deep inside me, for it to make any sense to you way inside yourself.   the pieces are too finely balanced deep in my mind to be lifted and fall in place deep inside yours.

seth above

Then why bother to express it at all – why contribute to the blather & chatter & twitterings going on?

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well sure null, there is no value in tweeting to trump supporters about him … the sentences would just fall on the floor of their mind or illicit some angry  #AdHominem   response like what just happened.

but starting way back there in this thought i started talking about the inside-person/outside-human (#Leviathan) predicament itself … rather than about trump … trump being just an exemplar subject matter.   to understand the significance of what i am saying engage with that … forget about trump. 

know in advance that your usual, “no longer interested” response will fall on the floor of my mind null

too deep inside to get to anyone ….unless you got’em tranced with your #HorseShit 
XOR they are members of the Ochlocracy null

well lots of people understand that deep inside others it is very different than deep inside themselves.  that is not just me … and there need be no trance to perceive it.

Other than the usual Xor contradiction you have a problem comminicating your deep inside to others.null

well expressing something from deep inside is always difficult.  
it cannot be done unilaterally … the other needs to listen.  
that it does  not happening frequently, and perhaps not here, is not surprising. 

to grock another one needs to appreciate … even respect … its unique #specificity …
rather than intending only to wipe it out.


well this is true null… i am more into understanding things … you into pounding them into “the right” shape.

i am just going by the surface sign as published,  choy “CHOY, THE HAMMER, PROVES THAT RIGHT IS MIGHT” … but hey, i like “malleability as in art” … a depth added, perhpas, by Choy himself null

question:  what is malleable in your case, your #insides or your #outsides?

I prefer that you talk about yourself & your own name & leave me to mine.  I know what it means.  YOU apparently do NOT! null

well you did use your name relative to mine, even thought you deleted it now.  me i am just trying to understand that transaction.  but hey, let #secrecy predominate … your choice.  once the deapth is sequestered it cannot be assailed … er, it is indefeasable.   i do understand and appreciate that defense.

When you start to malign it that’s what you get. thumbs down tsk tsk

how did i “malign it”  ?  by asking that question? … by quoting the sign itself? 

#btw i had no knowledge or intention to malign that with which you identify.  just probing to understand … something that you frequently do yourself, eh … to share deapth, we really cannot be oversly sensitive … which even goes for surfacy political correctness, eh?

I am not arguing my name with anyone! Period. You should have left it as it was.

okay , no problem mark.  …. later on this … i think i actually get this.   Your deepest occult secret,  free from external effect,  deeply spiritual.

No one else is qualified to judge what it is or how it fits.  Not occult, neither external or internal …. all your ontology … that’s just it!  null

well you understand in your ontology … me in mine … that *is* 98% of what i am saying null

if it is secret from it’s environment, it is “occult” to that environment … there is no difference in my ontology.  you did explicitidly say it was secret in no uncertain terms.

So you are going to redo my words into your own POS.  No thanks! I said exactly what I meant!.

well sum trys to understand things (spirits same things) …
and i always understand in my ontology …
so i necessarily “redo in my words”.  

again …

you understand
in your ontology
me in mine.

your “thanks” in this case being necessarily irrelevant.

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