"Ambition is the last refuge of failure." -- Oscar Wilde

Oscar Wilde quotes

Can one of the persons who keeps comming here tell me what is the your special interest in this node ? 

Why did you search for the phrase you searched for?

Please 

 
 
     "No great artist ever sees things as they really are. If he did he would cease to be an artist."

Tags

  1. wilde
  2. quotes
  3. success
  4. failure
  5. ambition
  6. interesting node
  7. question~answer
  8. last refuge of

Comments


Mark de LA says
seth 2005-11-04 03:05:54 1864
source: Bozo Faust (c) 2005
"Success is the last refuge of failure."
What do YOU mean with your quote?  I know what the other measns.

Seth says
source: Bozo Faust (c) 2005
"Success is the last refuge of failure."


Mark de LA says
Found the About quote in the TV program CSI last night. Pondered it - it's very zen. Now back to

Seth says
Mark 2005-11-04 06:46:24 1864
seth 2005-11-04 03:05:54 1864
source: Bozo Faust (c) 2005
"Success is the last refuge of failure."
What do YOU mean with your quote?  I know what the other measns.
the more you fail the more you get to success.

Mark de LA says
seth 2005-11-04 06:59:20 1864
Mark 2005-11-04 06:46:24 1864
seth 2005-11-04 03:05:54 1864
source: Bozo Faust (c) 2005
"Success is the last refuge of failure."
What do YOU mean with your quote?  I know what the other measns.
the more you fail the more you get to success.
Well T. Edison might agree with that since the rumor was testing over 2000 materials before coming upon tungsten for the electric light bulb, but ....1000 monkeys with typewriters trying to come up with anything intelligent won't get any closer to success the more they fail either.

unknown says
In the context he was saying he didn't want to get a boost in his career that way. The saying means more that those who don't do their job well are the ones striving for promotion. (probably the easiest way possible) while the ones who work hard (successful) will earn their results. Written differently it could say "A strong desire to achieve something as a source of comfort in times of nonperformance."

Mark de LA says
unknown 2005-11-07 21:36:21 1864
In the context he was saying he didn't want to get a boost in his career that way. The saying means more that those who don't do their job well are the ones striving for promotion. (probably the easiest way possible) while the ones who work hard (successful) will earn their results. Written differently it could say "A strong desire to achieve something as a source of comfort in times of nonperformance."
$he=?

Mark de LA says
When all else fails there is always ambition!

Mark de LA says
$ambition ne $success

unknown says
Mark 2005-11-08 06:57:58 1864
When all else fails there is always ambition!
QUOTED FOR TRUTH hahaha

Seth says
seth 2006-02-17 08:20:03 1864
the most probably answer to my question is that some teacher has asked a question about this quote in their homework assignment. So, if that is the answer, what was the teacher's question?
Most likely this is the teacher's exact question:
source:  pasted direct from what guest-6334 typed into the search engine
what did oscar wilde mean by ambition is the last refuge of failure
But i really need confirmation and specifics from a real student ... please !!!


Seth says
M 2006-02-17 08:07:58 1864
Prolly a bunch of failures out there searching the internet for justification. See also uri http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/16/1616235 from Slashdot.
I doubt that these were failures in the search,  look at the search phrases used in Chat Who's Here and look at the number of different search engines used.  I'm thinking these all stem from the same intention.  Don't forget, things are not always what they seem to be on the surface.

Seth says
the most probably answer to my question is that some teacher has asked a question about this quote in their homework assignment. So, if that is the answer, what was the teacher's question?

Seth says
unknown 2005-11-07 21:36:21 1864
In the context he was saying he didn't want to get a boost in his career that way. The saying means more that those who don't do their job well are the ones striving for promotion. (probably the easiest way possible) while the ones who work hard (successful) will earn their results. Written differently it could say "A strong desire to achieve something as a source of comfort in times of nonperformance."
Incidentally this, imho, is the best answer to your test question.

Mark de LA says
The literal meaning has to be close to "I have failed continuously but I want to succeed - therefore I am OK"  - pretty much the liberal success formula !

Seth says
Bob 2006-02-17 13:03:15 2565
ambition is the last refuge of failure

The guy that's always sitting around with a cup of coffee that says,
Bob, you put your comment on the wrong item ... hmmm ... i wonder why ?

Incidentally, why did you come here?

Walter Bucci says
Came across it in the T.V. show C.S.I. and immediately looked it up because I can associate myself with this quote. I have little ambition but I consider myself reasonably successful with what I do. I was hoping to find Oscar Wilde's reasons for writing such a quote.

I have worked with ambitious people however for many that is all they were. Ambition is closely associated with confidence which is often mistaken for arrogance. Ambition is also something that can take you away from your existing comfort zone therefore failure is a likely scenario. Especially true where ambition is not backed by experience and credentials.

Dr Caesium says
Come on guys are you serious!
Oscar Wilde was revealing his insight that ambitious people are failures as human beings. Why? Because compassion, consideration, tolerance, patience etc are qualities that should be associated with human beings, but have no association with ambition. Ambition, by definition, is associated with self-gain and, with rare exceptions, involves the desire for power, control, status, prestige, and is the handmaiden of greed.

wendy says
FYI: The quote mentioned on CSI was \"ambition is the last refuge of failure\" not \"success is the last refuge of failure\"

Cisco says
your over analyzing it. i also heard this quote after csi and it was so fast that i had to think about its meaning i found this site before finding it opinions or thoughts on the comment. i have my opinion about it.

ambition is the last refuge of failure.

If you think of ambition as a process that leads to success. trying to do something is possibly the last step, in fact, a limiting step before its simply done or successful. trying to do something is not doing it. and in trying we can limit ourselves from actually doing. there fore in our want of something lies the fact that its not in our grasp.

Rob says
I'd have to agree with Dr Caesium. All the "ambitious" people I've ever met were willing to do ANYTHING (literally) to get to their desired end. Since what makes a true human being is self-sacrifice and altruism (the lower animals rarely show these traits, living therefore by the "law of the jungle") ambitious people are failures at being truly human. It has also been my experience that purely ambitious people usually fall past those they stepped on on the way back down-- since no one seems willing to catch them as they fall...

The ultimate failure...

Cisco says
if you put a dog into a pool it has an ambition to get out of the pool. its ambition leaves it to swim to the edge, the dogs still in the pool its technicaly failed at thispoint to get out of the pool. its desire is there its motivation is there. as it nears the edge and struggles to get out the fact reains that its in the pool right before the instant it is out of the pool.


Mark de LA says
This shit belongs in the group philosophy which can be accessed as an open group with the password philosophy. Try it, you may like it. This has nothing to do with Marketing.


Seth says
You could make a similar node in the philosophy group, maybe even more targeted to the searches that people are using to get here.  

Vee says
I just heard the quote on CSI too. Grisham was definitely using it in the capacity that Dr. Caesium describes.

Professor S says
The quote might suggest that those who fear failure may continually seek lofty goals (particularly, external validation, like a promotion) as a means to reaffirm themselves. Essentially, ambitious people might be best described as fearful people, with fear then being at the root or "last refuge" for their ambitious pursuits. These people seek external affirmation that they might get from such "successes" as opposed to being confortable with themselves and their own self worth. For someone with low self confidence, fear of failure can be a life-long motivating factor as one seeks to gain such successes as a substitute for self-confidence.

Just Matt says
I would have to agree with the sense that the quote is used here, however, I'm not so sure about the absolute condemnation of ambition. It could also easily be seen that the reverse is true, that the excuse for apathy is the belief that one has 'higher' goals.

There are plenty of ambitious people that are valuable human beings, and plenty of apathetic people that are worthless and uncaring. I understand the sentiment, but like other generalizations, it remains an 'absolute' that reality will contradict. Much like any stereotype, we need to see not only beyond a race, or an appearance but even a characteristic or personality in our JUDGEMENT.

Seth says
moved here ...
stolen from j buck 2006-08-24 19:46:25 1069
If success/ambition equals money, here is the real equation:

Knowledge is Power
Time is Money, and, as every engineer knows:
Power is Work over Time.

So, substituting algebraic equations for these time worn bits of wisdom,
we get:
K = P (1)
T = M (2)
P = W/T (3)

Now, do a few simple substitutions:
Put W/T in for P in equation (1), which yields:
K = W/T (4)

Put M in for T into equation (4), which yields:
K = W/M (5).

Now we've got something. Expanding back into English, we get:

Knowledge equals Work over Money.
What this MEANS is that:

1. The More You Know, the More Work You Do, and
2. The More You Know, the Less Money You Make.

Solving for Money, we get:

M = W/K (6)
Money equals Work Over Knowledge.

From equation (6) we see that Money approaches infinity as Knowledge
approaches 0, regardless of the Work done.

What THIS MEANS is:

The More you Make, the Less you Know.

Solving for Work, we get
W = M K (7)
Work equals Money times Knowledge

From equation (7) we see that Work approaches 0 as Knowledge approaches 0.

What THIS MEANS is:
The stupid rich do little or no work.


Mark de LA says
Well, I'm not interested in pursuing this particular thought - just pointing the way to where it belongs. Somewhere down the line they lost track of what the quote means. (IMHO)
seth 2006-08-25 05:53:32 1864
You could make a similar node in the philosophy group, maybe even more targeted to the searches that people are using to get here.  


axeldude says
I just saw the CSI episode last night. It seems to me that to understand the quote, a person might consider a scenario where failure needs to find refuge. Perhaps it could be said that if someone is trying to rid themselves of failure, then failure\'s last refuge is ambition. If failure cannot find refuge in ambition, then it has to leave. So ambition may be motivated by failure, or perhaps halted by it.

oopsadaisy says
"ambition is the last refuge of failure"

I heard this on CSI also. I had my idea of what it meant so I thought I'd look and see what others interpreted it as.

To me this quote means that some people are never satisfied with what they have. They are always seeking "more". Therefore, ambition may lead to over reaching your abilities and competence. A good technician may want to become a manager thus moving to something he/she is not good at and lead them to fail.

Viewer says
It's intriguing that most people know of this quote by CSI, and not by the original works of Oscar Wilde... anyway, as pointed out before, in the context it was used in the show, it clearly means that only people who are failures (or fear to become one) reach out for ambition. In a way, it's like saying "ambitious people are weak, they don't believe in their own worth, or the worth of what they do, so they aspire for more".

This is also backed up by multiple religions and philosophical lines where the concept of "desire", "wanting", and "wishing" are common to weak minds. Strong people with strong minds don't need more, but will obviously take more if they earned it by right.

That said, the analogy with the dog "ambitioning" to get out of a pool seems a bit off-topic. A dog doesn't ambition anything, because it's not a mental process, it's instinct. The same applies to a human being who may be drowning, it's not like someone would rationally think what they want, but rather act on impulse and survival instinct.

That's my take on it.

RageGlow says
Well! lets refrase, failure exists within ambition! If u r ambitious, some how, u gotta work hard, and probably fail... alot! So an ambitious person has to try hard, fail, try again so that it becomes familiar with failure! failure becomes part of its ambition! I dont really think it's refered to classify good or bad, weak or strong, I dont even know the context of the frase (also know about it on CSI LOL.

But there is another view! think of it like this, if u r a happy, sucessfull, complete person, u shouldn't be very ambitious. If i recall CSI, Grisson said that frase after he was offered "favors/promotion" for defending a sheriff in court. And it sounded like: hey I dont need that shit, i can hold my own and chose my path!

Basically, Ambition leeds to greed, greed leeds to failure, and failure leeds to the dark side!

And thats my view of it.

mike says
Ambition is the want of success?

celticnurse says
iam coming in a little late on this chat, however i think that many of you are assuming that because Oscar Wilde said it it must be right. without ambition nothing would get done. man had the ambition to walk on the moon. my nine year old son aspires to be a doctor, his ambition is not failure, its striving to do well, which in the liberal world can be sin i guess. i do agree that ambition can be poison if channeled in the wrong way. i agree with 'rageglow' in the assessment of what Grissom meant by it. i think understanding what Oscar Wilde may have meant by it is usefull, but please don't lose sight of what it means to you.

link says
I would say most people who invent or discover are not driven by ambition (taken at it's meaning to achieve fame and or power). The success or notoriety they may gain was not their original goal.

The quote (in my opinion) refers to someone who chose his profession simply with the aim of prestige or personal gain. A professional like that will put himself before anyone else. The big ones make the news, like in the case of Enron.

I doubt failure was meant in a monetary sense or even in how many tries it took to accomplish something. Just a failure as a human being. A lot of people really don't mind failing at that if there is a lot of gain involved.

Any business or marketing site should have a discussion like this.

Sm0ke says
The way I look at it, Grissom didn't want the promotion because hes happy with where he's at. Thats as simple as that. (Im talking about Grissom in CSI , which is what spawned a lot of attention for this quote).

I think Oscar simply meant, when a person is not happy with where hes at , he strives to "improve" , or "better" his place in life.. which ties to the ambition. That person , if ambition will begin to strive to better himself.

But if Grissom is happy right where he is, doing what hes doing.. then hes achieved I guess what we can all call a level thats beyond what many of us can say. He doesn't wake up every morning needing to impress or compete with anyone, hes right where he wants to be.

On a technical note, one can argue in semantics that his love and natural "ambition" to solve cases and find justice is still ambition. But he just doesn't conform to it in the promotional sense.

Mark de LA says
Maybe all you folks who continue to try to untangle the meaning of the phrase
source: ... ambition is the last refuge of failure
... & have failed to have the last word on the subject with any crispness at all have a modicum of failure to deal with. How does that feel? Do you still have the ambition to go at it just one more time? Having failed, is it just your refuge to enjoy the ambition - never to be satisfied or never hoping to do so: just to want?
How does it feel to want ? 



Jester says
The true depth and meaning of such phrases always seems a bit more apparent after a few drinks. Why assume the phrase means anything at all? This phrase from the same wise man who said, "A man can be happy with any woman as long as he does not love her", while many people tend to equate love and happiness. Seth's math equation above seems to have every bit as much truth and meaning as the Wilde quote used by Grissom.

It's a bit like the Peter Seller's movie "Being There", with all of us trying to figure out what he means when he speaks of the winter and the spring.

michael says
It's interesting to look at this quote (and, by the way, I've read lots of Wilde, but like others here just came across this on CSI and wanted to look it up) in light of the Peter Principle: "In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence."

In that sense, the ambitious are the most likely to fail, simply because they tend to be do what is needed to get pushed up the ladder and out of their depth (to mangle several cliches).

This has certainly been my experience in both blue and white collar work: those who excel at their job tend to be happy with it and remain in it (as long as they are being fairly rewarded). Those who suck strive to move up and out of their positions, seeing increased status (for example, in job title) as a more vital reward than money, or simply doing a good job.

Filip says
I am totally surprised that you all guys don't understand the quote...

Ambition is the last refugee of a failure means:

Only the one who didn't succeeded (a failure) has ambition.
Since I succeeded - I am satisfied - I am on top - I can't have no ambition :) - I ALREADY SUCCEDED
filip2412@hotmail.com

Filip says
so to sum up, the one who has ambition is the one who is at the bottom (a failure) and wants to climb to the top of the mountain...

I am on top - I have no ambitions at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JuneH says
Touching on what Sm0ke said.. I agree, Grissom is saying he already sees himself as successful, therefore does not need to take refuge in ambition... as a mask for failure.

Mark de LA says
Hope is the last refuge of failure !


Mark de LA says
Those who spend all their time thinking about the future are not focusing on the present...

CMR says
I think M's first assertion on 2006-02-17 was the closest to my interpretation. Along the lines of "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"The literal meaning has to be close to "I have failed continuously but I want to succeed - therefore I am OK""

PS - how sad that we all (self included) came across this on CSI.

Mark de LA says
Well there is the consideration that having failed continuously one has at least succeeded in something, namely failure!


NLT says
I saw the episode on CSI too and really had to think a bit about Oscar Wilde's quote, I can understand what most comment views are: that wanting to succeed is or may inevitably lead to failure. BUT i think that would be the case if it werent for the word LAST. Failures LAST refuge is Ambition. One cannot think that ambition leads to failure or ambitious people will fail. Ambition leads to success for many people, and not all ambitious people will do absolutely anything to get where they want. In the CONTEXT that Grissom spoke he was quite satisifed to be where he is without ambition (to go anywhere further) and without failure. Essentially he doesnt have "a desire to achieve". He is acheiving. Also it is Oscaar WIlde's OPINION, what he says isnt gospel.

CLEM says
Lots of people say or write lots of things. We tend to pick out particular quotes because they illustrate or agree with beliefs and attitudes we seem to share with the speaker -- even if they are taken out of context. These quotes can seem profound on a number of levels, and they may well be very profound. But they aren\'t necessarily TRUTH -- just very interesting and enlightening. This is rather like those who pick and choose, mix and match, biblical passages to \"prove\" something they believe.

CSI is great -- even in reruns.

smith says
AMBITION IS STRIVED FOR AFTER A FAILED LIFE

Oscar Wilde says
I am not here because of CSI. I am here because a co-worker watched CSI. Anyway, a lot of folks expressed their opinions so I thought I should voice my own

Ambition is the germ from which all growth of nobleness proceeds

Mark de LA says
It's strange that this thread doesn't die.  Ambition is nothing; manifestation is everything!

avixis says
I totally agree with Professor S. and Filip!

Robocop says
I tend to agree with Smokes remark on 20-03-2007.

My view on the quote is as follows: If someone has to recognise (or is afraid of being trapped) that he fails in his present job, he might misuse ambition as an escape from his present failure. In other words to hide his failure.
Therefor: "Ambition is the last refuge of failure".

Actually this way of covering peoples failure is an accepted way in business world to keep on people who should be removed because of their failure. In stead of holding people responsible for their wrongdoing they sometimes are promoted (socalled ambition) to a higher position to hide their failure in their former position.

Sounds terrible but true Im affraid. Greetings...

nobody says
ambition = desire to achieve or will to succeed

last = after all others, final, only remaining

refuge = protection or shelter

failure = condition or act of not achieving

The quote means that the condition of not achieving, after all other possibilities have been exhausted, finally turns to a desire to achieve for protection/shelter. What does failure need refuge from? What is it in danger of? Death. Thus, ambition keeps failure alive.

The saying is actually self-explanatory. But because we live in a world where madness prevails, ambition is praised. One has to be careful of ambition. It stops one from making progress.

Mark de LA says
I'm glad there is failure because some people's ambitions suck!


hmc1234 says
I came upon this site researching this quote used on the CSI episode, now in reruns. I feel thankful CSI piqued my interest enough to research the history of this quote. I appreciate this site, where years of comments still remain for consideration.

I am laughing because two days before hearing this quote, my fortune cookie note read: "Where there is Ambition, there is success." I was torn between the two thoughts.

Here is how I have decided to view the quote: Ambition = striving. Striving is neither good nor bad, it is simply striving. Human nature is to strive...that is why we are here, those before us strived to survive.

Sooo: if you replace Ambition with Strive: =
Striving is the last refuge of failure = True
Where there is Striving, there is success = True

Neither have a poor connotation with me.

Mark de LA says
hmc1234 2009-04-20 08:45:31 1864
I came upon this site researching this quote used on the CSI episode, now in reruns. I feel thankful CSI piqued my interest enough to research the history of this quote. I appreciate this site, where years of comments still remain for consideration.

I am laughing because two days before hearing this quote, my fortune cookie note read: "Where there is Ambition, there is success." I was torn between the two thoughts.

Here is how I have decided to view the quote: Ambition = striving. Striving is neither good nor bad, it is simply striving. Human nature is to strive...that is why we are here, those before us strived to survive.

Sooo: if you replace Ambition with Strive: =
Striving is the last refuge of failure = True
Where there is Striving, there is success = True

Neither have a poor connotation with me.
Ambition without action corresponding to & congruent with the target of ambition is like Obama's Hope & Change - without details, merely gluing wings on worms to get butterflys & stirring a pot of soup without adding or subtracting any ingredients!



wow power leveling says

This is a great post and makes me think of where I can fit in. I do a little bit of everything mentioned here and I guess I have to find my competitive advantage.

louis vuitton says
Well said, such a person should be a good sentence, or the future will be more rampant.

Bobbie White says
my ambition, to find what this statement means, is my only step (refuge) before failure (not understanding the statement)

Todd says
Simple in the CSI context. Grissom was offered higher status, and thus he denies with this quote. Pretty obvious, really, what the character was saying. Not having read the work of Oscar Wilde, but having read about the man, I suspect that the statement meant (as others have pointed out, but with the suggestion of an "if and only if")...

If a man (or woman) is on the verge of complete failure (looking at himself), he will become ambitious. If he is ambitious, he must be on the verge of complete failure (looking at himself). The latter is what the CSI character was referring to. It is a subtle way of suggesting that ambition goes hand in hand with failure, and therefore is bad and/or unnecessary. I seem to recall Oscar was all about inspiration instead of vigor, so this makes sense.

Mark de LA says
I think this is still the longest running multi-participant item on FastBlogIt!  I think that Ambition protects the Ego by the illusion of a future that has success! I say the illusion (which may come to pass) because the future is a phantasy as long as it is in the future. 


Seth says
Astute observations, M ... i can see the future as a fantasy ... err at our worst; at our best it can be called planning.  If you keep failing, then that last fantasy is all you get.   Yes this is an excellent item demonstrating what i had hoped fastblogit would have been.  Perhaps it is fastblogit's last refuge.

Mark de LA says
FYI, planning is still imagination & can be unreal by many 1000s of percentage points. The future is always imagination, NOW is always an infinitely thin slice & the past is a lo-fi recording: reality is a mash-up!
What fbi is now could change by cleaning up the human interface & extending some functions like search & the RTE - plus other things we have discussed along the way.  The major question is would it be worth it & can, in serving humanity, we or you make some money in the process. Is there anything mobile in fbi that could migrate to an iphone or Android?  Like CyberMind(TM) it may just serve only to manure future endeavors!


Seth says
source: M' observes ...
FYI, planning is still imagination & can be unreal by many 1000s of percentage points. The future is always imagination, NOW is always an infinitely thin slice & the past is a lo-fi recording: reality is a mash-up!
Planning is, where it is successful, restrained by reality, imagination not so much.  Both are mental behaviors.  The future, on the  other hand, is reality that we have yet to experience, it  is just as real at the now ... especially to a being who is not quite so narrow minded as are we.

Mark de LA says
Time is fun to play with philosophically & otherwise.  In fact it is an abstraction mathematically or physically of the facts of change whether it be the hands on a clock moving, an atomic clock spitting out particles or the movement of the heavenly bodies. That we divide our experience into past, present & future supports the abstraction & the mental processes. Future never becomes reality because it would be called NOW. It is always an imaginary world extracted from the now & lo-fi past memory. I also tend to think that movement is an abstraction of our ability to observe, but that is another discussion. Those mythical beings who are not narrow minded as we are also are imaginary unless you have found one that can see all of creation at once!


Seth says
source: MR above
Future never becomes reality because it would be called NOW. It is always an imaginary world extracted from the now & lo-fi past memory.
Well, whereas most of what you say is well said, i have a serious bone to pick with thinking the future is imaginary.  The future is real, it is not imaginary.  It is as real as the next town you have yet to visit when your are driving in your car on the highway.  But then we diverge from the topic at hand... perhaps if you want we can discuss this on another node.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-12-04 09:24:33 1864
source: MR above
Future never becomes reality because it would be called NOW. It is always an imaginary world extracted from the now & lo-fi past memory.
Well, whereas most of what you say is well said, i have a serious bone to pick with thinking the future is imaginary.  The future is real, it is not imaginary.  It is as real as the next town you have yet to visit when your are driving in your car on the highway.  But then we diverge from the topic at hand... perhaps if you want we can discuss this on another node.
Nobody is disputing that time moves on or that future moments are real - they just don't contain the exact content as you imagine in the present; your present NOW being the best place within which you can experience reality.
 

C says
~Let's see what shows up in Obama's ambitions next


K says
CSI told me to do it, Grissome is the shit

Me :) says
Did you give Bush an F--- for all 8 years..lol
It is crazy how people are so overly critical and he is only been in office for 14 months and you except him or anyone to clean up 8 years of mess...come on now... :)

Those that said they have no ambition on this post bc they are on the top...that is a lie, how do you live with no ambition?! No ambition = Death ?

Without ambition ppl will not make it in this world...ppl want to better themselves, their family and others...well most..

I believe ambition and failure go hand in hand.

Those who take risks and learn from their mistakes are wealthy in experience..eventually money, compared to those who are content and complaining about their situation..b/c they do not have the courage to take risks.

Yes, there are those who are overly ambitious and setting themselves up for failure...

Seth says
Well i agree that ambition and failure go hand in hand.  Some people, from time to time, try to maximize their learning, fearlessly taking risks, and they do that driven by ambition to maximize their capability in the future.  So seems that ambition precedes failure, doesn't necessarily follow it.  Oscar Wilde must have been talking about a different aspect of this process when he says "Ambition is the last refuge of failure". 

Mark de LA says
How do you know you are failing if you have no ambition towards something? OTOH, if you just double down on your ambition, like our president Obama on healthcare, you have illustrated the term "last refuge"!


Seth says
What is the meaning of "last refuge" ? 

C says
seth 2010-02-24 08:40:53 1864
What is the meaning of "last refuge" ? 
from the etymology dictionary: (apparently it means the last place a person flees back to.)refuge Look up refuge at Dictionary.comlate 14c., from O.Fr. refuge, from L. refugium "a taking refuge, place to flee back to," from re- "back" + fugere "to flee" (see fugitive) + -ium "place for."

ericdb says
Just came across this post after the same CSI re-run and googling the Wilde phrase.

Amazing longevity of this post. Good stuff!

jon says
just heard this on CSI and was curious. its kinda funny how many did the same

C says
Zen might have it that ambition is just part of the machinery (survival mechanism) for protecting a fragile, non-existant ego or personality - something distinct from the true core of being.


Seth says
... but what "the true core being" is, is up to one's imagination.

C says
seth 2010-05-13 07:33:38 1864
... but what "the true core being" is, is up to one's imagination.
It's NOT imagination, that's the point! Go for the direct experience.  The Ego you are trying to preserve w/ RWG & thousands of other tools of the machinery is imagination.


Mark de LA says
seth 2010-05-13 16:41:46 1864
M 2010-05-13 16:04:47 1864
seth 2010-05-13 13:37:17 1864
C 2010-05-13 07:41:45 1864
seth 2010-05-13 07:33:38 1864
... but what "the true core being" is, is up to one's imagination.
It's NOT imagination, that's the point! Go for the direct experience.  The Ego you are trying to preserve w/ RWG & thousands of other tools of the machinery is imagination.

Are you saying that this "core being thingy" does not have any ambition and/or does not have any survival mechanisms?  What i am afraid of here is  that  you are just substituting one sign for another sign and both of those signs are of the very same thing.
Yep, being requires nothing except being - no pre-requisites, no taxes!
A rock has a being, so does slime mold; and, yes, neither has ambition - that i know of.  You, "your ego", and you "your being" both exhibit the mechanism of survival and probably some ambition for something  beyond your current awareness.  Your flim flam of terms answers no questions for me.
Too bad you don't have much of a clue what "being" is. There is no survival to "being" it just is! I thought you had some Zen foundation.  You may not want the answers you are getting or may be asking the wrong questions. If you are interested go here (which I just finished), otherwise have a happy life anyway!

Mark de LA says
seth 2010-05-13 13:37:17 1864
C 2010-05-13 07:41:45 1864
seth 2010-05-13 07:33:38 1864
... but what "the true core being" is, is up to one's imagination.
It's NOT imagination, that's the point! Go for the direct experience.  The Ego you are trying to preserve w/ RWG & thousands of other tools of the machinery is imagination.

Are you saying that this "core being thingy" does not have any ambition and/or does not have any survival mechanisms?  What i am afraid of here is  that  you are just substituting one sign for another sign and both of those signs are of the very same thing.
Yep, being requires nothing except being - no pre-requisites, no taxes!

Seth says
M 2010-05-13 16:04:47 1864
seth 2010-05-13 13:37:17 1864
C 2010-05-13 07:41:45 1864
seth 2010-05-13 07:33:38 1864
... but what "the true core being" is, is up to one's imagination.
It's NOT imagination, that's the point! Go for the direct experience.  The Ego you are trying to preserve w/ RWG & thousands of other tools of the machinery is imagination.

Are you saying that this "core being thingy" does not have any ambition and/or does not have any survival mechanisms?  What i am afraid of here is  that  you are just substituting one sign for another sign and both of those signs are of the very same thing.
Yep, being requires nothing except being - no pre-requisites, no taxes!
A rock has a being, so does slime mold; and, yes, neither has ambition - that i know of.  You, "your ego", and you "your being" both exhibit the mechanism of survival and probably some ambition for something  beyond your current awareness.  Your flim flam of terms answers no questions for me.

Mark de LA says
Perhaps ambition is not the last refuge of failure- or is it?

the last word says
all you have to do is look at other qoutes by oscar wilde and it will become clear what he ment..

Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
Oscar Wilde

Conversation about the weather is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
Oscar Wilde

so ambition is the last refuge to the failure means.. the ambition is the only thing left for a person who thinks they are failing in life.. thier ambition causes thier own thoughts of failure...that htey have to be somebody... usually about money...




Mark de LA says
It's a much simpler ego problem.  Rather than look at the failure, acknowledge & own it they would protect their personality & ego by looking at what they want to have or become. Not being wrong is more important than changing what got the person into the failure in the first place.
 

Al says
Here is my take on the quote,

My ambition is to own Trump Towers and take my janitorial position there very seriously.


Seth says
Al 2012-02-16 10:10:00 1864
Here is my take on the quote,

My ambition is to own Trump Towers and take my janitorial position there very seriously.



Mark de LA says
Is liberalism the last refuge of failure? It certainly shifts the burden for lack of success to others; & to those who are successful for not including you; & to a collective we who should be doing things the way you think they should be done; & others for not sharing what they have with you while you think that others who think like you need more of the others' stuff;
 


Mark de LA says
Elvis 2013-05-06 15:42:14 1864
Filip has it I think. to be a success (whoever you are) is to be happy..to be happy is to be content..to be content is to already be satisfied with the status quo...ambition by definition is a desire to change the status quo...implying discontent..implying lack of happiness...implying failure.It follows that therefore if you take happiness as the ultimate success then ambitioness is the ultimate failure and therefore its ultimate refuge!!
Yep. And some Buddhists think that the ultimate happiness is to covet nothing! Go for it!


Elvis says
Filip has it I think. to be a success (whoever you are) is to be happy..to be happy is to be content..to be content is to already be satisfied with the status quo...ambition by definition is a desire to change the status quo...implying discontent..implying lack of happiness...implying failure.It follows that therefore if you take happiness as the ultimate success then ambitioness is the ultimate failure and therefore its ultimate refuge!!

jessie chen says
I watched CSI lat night and Gil Grissom said that when he helped the guy to prove the science test was manipulated. And that guy said if Grissom has ambition in his caree, he can promote him. Then Grissom said
Ambition is the last refuge of failure. What I think from what Grissom means that I am not a failure so I am not ambitious. Not sure whether my understanding is correct and startbto search for true meaning.

Mark de LA says
Ambrose Bierce in the Devil's Dictionary (cica 1911)  (via google books)


Seth says
...!   and we laugh just because we understand how wrong that is.

Mark de LA says
Einai 2014-05-14 07:14:21 1864
seth 2014-05-14 06:50:05 1864
...!   and we laugh just because we understand how wrong that is.
The book is a good example of WIT in literature of 100 years ago - perhaps a lost art in these days. You can read the link & get the idea.
It reminded me of some of Dayn Waw (unpublished) which gave the definitions of words in the slang poetry written in Znuz is Znees.
Dayn WAW pg. Ling (0). <==

Seth says
Mark 2016-01-13 15:23:17 [item 1864#41918]
This group Marketing lost its way vis-a-vis marketing a long while ago which brings out the suggestion that rather than migrating contents perhaps it would be nice to just change the name of a group. idea
nathan 2016-01-13 15:27:26 [item 1864#41920]
Sounds nice, and is technically possible, but more than changing a simple name in a field. It’s changing the name in all the thoughts and all the comments and all the tags … and then still scouring every last bit of text in the whole database for any group oldname that is buried in the text, if you truly want it done right.
it is this url, http://www.fastblogit.com/item/1864 , which should be preserved … not necessarily the group.  but let’s not spend alot of time on this …

it is what it is,
and can be
what it has become.

-- Bozo Faustlaugh
 

Seth says
Mark 2016-01-13 15:23:17 [item 1864#41918]
This group Marketing lost its way vis-a-vis marketing a long while ago which brings out the suggestion that rather than migrating contents perhaps it would be nice to just change the name of a group. idea
nathan 2016-01-13 15:27:26 [item 1864#41920]
Sounds nice, and is technically possible, but more than changing a simple name in a field. It’s changing the name in all the thoughts and all the comments and all the tags … and then still scouring every last bit of text in the whole database for any group oldname that is buried in the text, if you truly want it done right.
Mark 2016-01-13 15:29:28 [item 1864#41921]
One of the things I noticed is if you click on the group Marketing you only get lower case marketing & a no such thing message. Couldn’t find it in your bug list.
nathan 2016-01-13 15:38:00 [item 1864#41927]
New groups can only be created lower case. There are a host of problems otherwise. I have tried to keep legacy support for old groups with mixed case … and I guess we will need a name changer before we can ditch the legacy code … but bear with it because maintaining that legacy support is not trivial. I’ll see about this one.
like yes, so these old groups with upper and lowere case in them should just migrate to some lower case name.

Mark de LA says
Mark 2016-01-13 15:30:46 [item 1864#41923]
seth 2016-01-13 15:35:18 [item 1864#41925]
which brings up a snarley issue …. is group “Marketing” the same thing as group “marketing” … apparently it is and it is not. 
Mark 2016-01-13 15:39:20 [item 1864#41929]
Which goes to the question why we have make the distinction at all & can’t allow UC in the group names.
nathan 2016-01-13 15:45:19 [item 1864#41931]
I wrote a big comment on that somewhere back when I started here. I really don’t feel like writing it all again. It’s an issue. Group names can appear in the URL. Url’s should not be case sensitive when multiple domains can be run off multiple platforms, they are also data keys, which are more reliable and efficient in single case, etc etc etc. Isn’t it enough to know I have lots of experience with this and you will be so much happier down the road when the reasons don’t bite you back?
seth 2016-01-13 15:49:22 [item 1864#41932]
like
Mark 2016-01-13 15:53:46 [item 1864#41933]
Shouldn’t you be able to find your comments with your magic search ?  Anyway, I accept your reasons on that since I thought about some of the problems already. yes
seth 2016-01-13 15:56:29 [item 1864#41934]
the feature to search comments or body of items does not yet exist. 
Yeah, I was thinking of what he said about the natural language search of databases. cheeky

Mark de LA says
Mark 2016-01-13 15:30:46 [item 1864#41923]
seth 2016-01-13 15:35:18 [item 1864#41925]
which brings up a snarley issue …. is group “Marketing” the same thing as group “marketing” … apparently it is and it is not. 
Mark 2016-01-13 15:39:20 [item 1864#41929]
Which goes to the question why we have make the distinction at all & can’t allow UC in the group names.
nathan 2016-01-13 15:45:19 [item 1864#41931]
I wrote a big comment on that somewhere back when I started here. I really don’t feel like writing it all again. It’s an issue. Group names can appear in the URL. Url’s should not be case sensitive when multiple domains can be run off multiple platforms, they are also data keys, which are more reliable and efficient in single case, etc etc etc. Isn’t it enough to know I have lots of experience with this and you will be so much happier down the road when the reasons don’t bite you back?
seth 2016-01-13 15:49:22 [item 1864#41932]
like
Mark 2016-01-13 15:53:46 [item 1864#41933]
Shouldn’t you be able to find your comments with your magic search ?  Anyway, I accept your reasons on that since I thought about some of the problems already. yes
nathan 2016-01-13 16:00:28 [item 1864#41935]
Sure. Magic search (good name btw) is not yet budgeted. I did drop the hint that I will probably make it myself when I tire of not having it … but even then I need to finish with the unified author feature before moving on. It’s getting close, but not yet done. And next on the budget list is moving thoughts around … for which the unified groups were necessary in order for it to work nice, otherwise there were hairy issues with permission to move from one group to another. Now, it will be easy to move between groups you are logged into without hair.
like

Si says
Mark 2016-01-13 15:30:46 [item 1864#41923]
seth 2016-01-13 15:35:18 [item 1864#41925]
which brings up a snarley issue …. is group “Marketing” the same thing as group “marketing” … apparently it is and it is not. 
Mark 2016-01-13 15:39:20 [item 1864#41929]
Which goes to the question why we have make the distinction at all & can’t allow UC in the group names.
seth 2016-01-13 15:42:36 [item 1864#41930]
me i would prefer to just accept it and move on … i think the short answer is that throught all the searches and urls it is just now worth preserving the visual distinction.

incidentally one shold be able to log on with a upper lower case email address ...some people don’t realize that they are just playing with themselves and will get their panties in a bundel when it rejects them.
nathan 2016-01-13 16:05:32 [item 1864#41938]
Emails are by spec case insensitive. I do what most places do and simply lower case it directly on acceptance from the user input field. Thus yes, users can put it in any way they want and it will work fine. When we use it to send email to them it will be the lower case version, but that will work just fine too.
seth 2016-01-13 17:20:57 [item 1864#41955]
except i just failed when i typed Russell.seth@gmail.com on denies’s iPone 6s … er well i’ll try it again … maybe i mistyped something else.
nathan 2016-01-13 17:26:33 [item 1864#41957]
I just tried logging in by camel casing my email address and it worked fine. Passwords are case sensitive of course, but iphone should not be changing your case inside a password box.
seth 2016-01-13 17:30:06 [item 1864#41958]
it was the type ahead that changed it … same prob i had on the iPad Pro … the devise turns the first letter upper case … going now to mall ...ill try it on the Pro … see if i can get authenticated there and see all my groups.
Not exactly the same. When you were on the iPad Pro you were entering a group pen name, which were case sensitive. Now you are entering an email address, which is not (should not) be case sensitive and I just double checked the code and it is .toLowerCase() ing the input it gets right out of the text box so it will not matter what case the email address is given in.

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