testing blockquote styling of an old item ...

About: like this one

let me see …

here is a perl of wisdom

written by bozo

<p style="text-align:center"><strong><big>here is a perl of wisdom</big></strong></p>

<p style="text-align:right"><small>written by bozo</small></p>
  well brand new thoughts work just fine  thumbs up smug
but it did not work here  …
I am in a box. 
Give me a new box.
I will add it to my box
to be in a bigger box.
-- Bozo Faust
which was not the intention … see what it looked like in the RTE box, picture below

here is the HTML ...
<div class="defaultFont" style="font: 100%/16px Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,Helve,sans-serif; text-align: center;">I am in a box.&nbsp;<br />
Give me a new box.<br />
I will add it to my box<br />
to be in a bigger box.</div>

<div class="defaultFont" style="font: 100%/16px Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,Helve,sans-serif; text-align: right;">-- Bozo Faust</div>

yet here is a picture of what it looks like in the RTE …
so it showed ok in RTE, but did not displayed the same way  on the screen. 

and yes i know you haen’t synced them yet.

hmmm … well i did hack at the HTML, but i know i didn’t substitute <div> tags for <p> tags

but this was an old item that was republished, so maybe the <div> tag got substituted for the <p> tag way back in time when I originally edited the item from an old fbi1 format. 

not anything to spend any time on  laugh … probably will never happen again.


  1. blockquote
  2. rte
  3. styling
  4. item 19105
  5. rte future


Seth says
now that i think about it … i must have made a blockquote first,  and then pasted into it copies of text in an old format.  that would explain why  what was supposed to be <p>s ended up as <div>s from which the current system doesn’t seem to read the text-align tag.

Holmes says
Yes. The div’s with defaultFont are from the old RTE. I played around and the new RTE does not seem to deal with them well. This is a case where the “paste as plain text” button works nicely. You get the text and then you can style it how you want in the new RTE as I did here.

I am in a box. 
Give me a new box.
I will add it to my box
to be in a bigger box.

-- Bozo Faust

Holmes says
p.s. The consensus is that ckeditor is the best available, if you read the reviews by others. TinyMCE, the one used by wordpress, is 2nd … but has many more HTML gotchas.

Seth says
seth 2016-02-08 05:09:19 [item 19880#44896]
well “paste as plain text” is not yet in my vocabulary … not so very sure i want to have to learn it either.

The goal here, the way i understand it, is to get the RTE to the point where i can ask my grandmother to open it up and write a nice looking web page … one can almost do that in wordpress.  How close do you think we are to that?  The people i have been working with in the CoOp call themselves not being able to blog because even the wordpress RTE is a challenge to learn.  They have learned Microsoft Word, and think that is the way you write on the computer.
dA 2016-02-08 05:22:38 [item 19880#44897]
Well good luck with that. The only web based RTE like that I know of is Google closure editor. It’s the one used by gmail and I also used it in the boogie’s you participated in over at playnexus. But, it has it’s own limitations and is very heavyweight … loads slow and loads down the browser … and even after all that it is still not perfect as I am sure you have discovered using gmail.

Simple fact is that HTML structure does not lend itself well to cursor style navigation. No one has yet figured out a way to do that that completely works. Google closure editor combats that by producing highly bastardized html that won’t validate … which has been a complaint of many.
yeah i know yes … the best we can do is the best we can do from where we are at today.  i’m not complaining … i just wanted to give you a context of where I see this going should it ever inform your choices in the matter.

Seth says
dA 2016-02-08 05:30:08 [item 19880#44901]
p.p.p.s. I have often envisioned a visual editor that edits markdown, not html. In theory, it would end up doing exactly what you want. But no one has made it yet.

Seth says
dA 2016-02-08 05:38:42 [item 19880#44904]
p penta s. Here is the closest to what I am talking about. It shows markdown in the left window and html in the right window a the same time. If you combined these into one, it should work.

Seth says
dA 2016-02-08 05:43:42 [item 19880#44905]
The idea is that you don’t try and edit HTML, with all it’s structures and nested blocks, directly. You directly edit something flat, like markdown, with a visual editor that show’s how it would look in HTML as you edit it. Then, you convert to HTML upon save. This should solve all the cursor position problems trying to edit true HTML.
seth 2016-02-08 05:48:35 [item 19880#44907]
sounds to me like a intermediate step between where we are today and where we can simply drag and drop from a pallet.
dA 2016-02-08 05:52:35 [item 19880#44910]
Not sure you are understanding what I am saying. I am saying Dillinger is not yet it. That combining both panels in Dillinger into one may finally get a workable html end result wysiwyg editor. Drag and drop not withstanding, that is a simple add on to any editor, even straight up markdown.
seth 2016-02-08 05:58:32 [item 19880#44913]
well i see the left panel in dillinger as the pallet.   the question is how it sychronizes with the canvas on the right.  but i have yet to play with dillinger. 
dA 2016-02-08 06:04:12 [item 19880#44914]
Well there are HTML editors out their like that. They are not true WYSIWYG by definition, but they are very nice hybrids. They allow you to drag styling blocks and things from a pallet onto a page, similar to the cartoon editor. You directly edit the text on the page, but only inside a styling block, you don’t get to curse the page with arrow keys as if it were flat. You work with blocks on the page and you can drag them around and change their styles and edit their content. They are actually very easy to use and get very nice results with, but not wysiwyg in terms of being like a page of paper or like microsoft word etc.

Seth says
that said, the matters discussed in Eliminate clumsiness for starting are essential.  i had thought they would have been solved before #1, but apparently they are not.  but hey, you know better than me, that you are timing this stuff.  so go for it!  i am not complaing … just working out how i will be moving into a new universe smiley

Seth says
seth 2016-02-07 19:59:29 [item 19880#44893]
bugstrange my edit privileges on this item in the river and in tag rooms seem to have disappeared.
dA 2016-02-08 06:14:46 [item 19880#44916]
Interesting. The way the new rights naturally apply is that you can only edit open group items “in the scope of the group”. Though this is a bug in terms of how it used to work, I am wondering if this is not a good idea.

It would help throttle open groups. I know that hasn’t been a big problem yet, but I think that is only because so few people are here. The first place new people go is the river. The first thing they will try to edit is things they can edit in the river. If there are 100 new people looking at the river and they all try and edit open group things there it will be crazypants! I kind of like that open group thoughts can only be edited in the group … seems like a good way to keep open groups from going ballistic, doesn’t it?
seth 2016-02-08 06:21:27 [item 19880#44917]
well if you wrote a thought you should be able to chage it, wherver you encounter it.    the old group based rights might be changing into more person based rights which can more easily be gamed.
dA 2016-02-08 06:28:14 [item 19880#44919]
Perhaps, but that’s a little different. As of yet, the system still does not know about who wrote a thought, only what group it was written in as before (and the pen name which has been used for this in some logic but is not the way to go obviously). The id of who creates a thought is being recorded, but much of the system is still your logic and is group based … it will be some time yet before all of that old code can be rewritten.

But this idea is new. The old way allowed anyone to edit open group thoughts anywhere, anytime. But controlling open groups has also been a problem and will be much more so as the number of people grow. Only being able to edit open group thoughts in the scope of the group is one easy way to help keep things sane. Being able to edit it if you created it is another issue … but I don’t think it matters much either way. If you are accustomed to only editing open group thoughts in the open group it wouldn’t seem odd to go there to edit it even if you owned it … unless you spent 10 years using fbi1 of course.

It really does feel like a nice, sane, and logical way to deal with open group content to me. Only let editable posts out into the wild in closed groups, where the people count is small and controlled.
seth 2016-02-08 06:59:43 [item 19880#44920]
well yeah it is all stuff in transition to evolution revolutionarily.   but i rather think that before there are zillions of people using these thought representations, that it should be clear what person wrote what thought … so, me, i would like to see that happen sooner than later.
dA 2016-02-08 07:12:47 [item 19880#44921]
So, hypothetically speaking, which do you want sooner? (not saying what I will do)
  1. Ability to create a new thinking.domain?
  2. User id’s and rights fully replacing the old group way in all code and visual display?
Because I was going for 2 but switched over to 1 because you kept saying it was very important … and #1 is nearly done, actually is completely done in terms of creating subdomains and only needs finishing for deleting subdomains and the extra zipping etc needed to create full domains beyond direct copying of files … but then, new domains created will be as the system is now … so where does that line “git” drawn? (spelling of git intentional pun)
seth 2016-02-08 07:14:07 [item 19880#44922]
#1 hands down.
dA 2016-02-08 07:21:38 [item 19880#44923]
Hummmm … well IMHO you often seem fickle. Like you only focus on one thought at a time instead of holding a constant pattern (the big picture) in your beingness that you juggle all other thoughts in respect to at all times. In fact, this whole thinking.domain, tagging, recording model you are going for seems to be based on trying to get the computer to do the “big picture” thing so that your brain never has to do the juggling itself … for whatever that is worth. Others might even get what thinking.domain is if you explain it that way … because frankly, I still don’t get it.  I have my own ideas about what is useful and I would do with this stuff.
seth 2016-02-08 07:37:39 [item 19880#44924]
nope, none of that is true.    in fact it is the big picture which has been driving what i do … er, all along.   that you have not gotten the gestalt of my big picture is just that you are over there in your own. 

specifically, being “based on trying to get the computer to do the “big picture” thing so that your brain never has to do the juggling itself” is almost the opposite direction from what i am doing.  ← trust me on that … i have been dealing all my life with what should best be automated, and what is best left  to human action. 

So, nope, not fickle at all, just focused from a living source.  You know, the one you taught me about wink
dA 2016-02-08 07:47:18 [item 19880#44926]
Well, since your ego’s seem to want feeding today, back at ya then. What you have been dealing with all your life as “should be automated” is just what you want automated based on how you have made yourself … I have seen it and it is often not what most people would choose to have automated. Many things you automate a majority of people have good internal processes for and don’t even care if it is automated in actual practice of what they do, not all, but enough to say that you personally are not all that good of an indicator the way you have made yourself.

Not saying these thinking.domains are not useful, they have some really good use points that the majority of people will be interested in … but I will bet with you, that in the long run, these things you personally think are what should be automated are not what draws people to them. Mark that bet if you like.
seth 2016-02-08 07:56:07 [item 19880#44927]
you seem to be making this personal about me.  I claim it is not.   There is no way that i can be “the decider” of what should, and should not,  be automated … er, nor can you.  Remove that presumption from the context here and we might converge faster.
dA 2016-02-08 08:17:41 [item 19880#44931]
Well, to keep this ball in play … I have been saying things like IMHO and “I’ll bet you” to keep it not about me, just about opinion and data. You have been the one saying “I have studied this” and “trust me on this” … it’s your ego that is grandstanding for this game of pong. I’m just hitting the ball back and filling in info.

And as far as trusting you on what other people do, I simply don’t. You have shown over and over again that you are extremely good at knowing what you do, and nearly as equally poor at knowing what the majority of people do, only knowing what people in select groups similar to you do. Not that it is a problem, it’s not. I just don’t trust you when you say what people do … it’s not what people do in almost all cases you say that … and I’m not saying people do what I do either … but I know that is the case. I see what people do and what I do and what you do and know the difference between them all. That’s one thing I am very good at and no matter how people characterize my interaction, people who know me generally, and often grudgingly agree, I know what people really do … my travels and observations are all about knowing that.
yeah this is a common habit …it’s not just me … nor even just you.   on the boob tube talking heads are always saying shit like “people want to do this”, or “Americans want free health care” … yada yada yada.   kind of a pet peeve with me when i hear that.  you think i do it a lot … well i think you do it even more laugh.   so we just give people the best tool that we can and  watc(h) what they actually do … and go from there.  nuff said eh? ← dont answer that question laugh

Seth says
dA 2016-02-08 08:22:59 [item 19880#44932]
If your ego can take a break for a second, enough food yet?

Really good things are shaping up on the plugin-table-ajax front. I am creating a generalized plugin for creating tables from any ajax data to make the delete table for spawned subdomains. It makes beautiful bootstrap tables (like those seen in admin) and will drop right in to create your co-op tables.
surprise … omg … smugsmug

Seth says
Mark 2016-02-08 07:57:38 [item 19880#44928]
There is always a tradeoff between flexibility & simplicity in computer software. The more flexible the more the user has to specify & the more the software seems complex.  The less flexible & pre chosen the options are the more the user keeps wanting it to do more stuff not in the design.   As part of the art of communication why don’t you folks make a YouTube of how to use it & see if the less computer savvy can understand instead of continually revising the editor.  I would never expect this to spit out wonderfully typeset-looking books. Even Kindle & others are changing what a book is & is like. 
Good Luck fitting it all on a tiny cellphone.yes Note too the smaller the cell phone screen the harder & less flexible things become. HAL & Startrek are a ways away yet even in 2016 & voice doesn’t communicate what a picture does.
dA 2016-02-08 08:06:21 [item 19880#44929]
seth 2016-02-08 08:16:17 [item 19880#44930]

the youtube is a good idea … just as soon at this stabalizes … i will probably do it. 

the trade off between flexibility and power and ease of use is certainly always there.   we also need to factor in how fast it is learned … and what prompts that learning.  creating a system that kind of unfolds in power as one learns it more and more, me thinks is a good idea.
Mark 2016-02-08 08:42:27 [item 19880#44935]
Sometimes waiting for evolution to create something for you ends up with a seahorse.  What is needed are people who can create evolution! (out of nothingcoolyes) – see Werner Erhard, Gopi Krishna, GW & others.

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