Electioneering vs Truth & Substance

This pretty much sums up why I think considering politics for 10488 is a bad idea: (However, when my used copy of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals finally comes I may reconsider.)
 (P.S. I think they already collided)

Tags

  1. truth
  2. elections
  3. partisanship
  4. rules for radicals
  5. the obama nation
  6. rwg
  7. item 10498
  8. item 10488

Comments


Seth says
Expecting a book like "Rules For Radicals" to alter the balance between "electioneering vs truth" seems to me to be an auspicious beginning.  Especially since people who bought "Rules For Radicals" also bought "The Obama Nation" which has been exposed as a mishmash of unsupported conjecture, half-truths, logical fallacies and outright falsehoods.  I plan to read neither.  

Mark de LA says
seth 2008-09-17 09:39:44 10498
Expecting a book like "Rules For Radicals" to alter the balance between "electioneering vs truth" seems to me to be an auspicious beginning.  Especially since people who bought "Rules For Radicals" also bought "The Obama Nation" which has been exposed as a mishmash of unsupported conjecture, half-truths, logical fallacies and outright falsehoods.  I plan to read neither.  
BTW, this item was invented not only to enjoy the joke but also to offer a stream to do 10488 on political topics. The joke is on you because your response was the RWG!
Q.E.D


Mark de LA says
seth 2008-09-17 11:10:47 10498
M 2008-09-17 10:49:21 10498
-snip- Spin is the master tool of the RWG.  -snip-
Continually calling rwg on me is starting to make me puke ... that is unless you start identifying your own rwg.
It is interesting in this comment that you identified with the RWG! It is a general comment about tools & spin.


Mark de LA says
seth 2008-09-17 10:08:12 10498
Where did you hear about "Rules for Radicals" - be honest ?
What the hell does the answer to that question have to do with the content of the book? I heard about it when I finally found an article that exposed Hillary Clinton's college thesis which she had hidden from the public for a very long time.  I followed her thesis to the sources. I think I used Wikipedia on Alinsky for the stepping stone.


Mark de LA says
There are objective facts in real life & in some articles.  If you screen out everything except your own point of view (& sources with your own point of view) you may end up with a pack of lies for company. There are objective facts in 10489 & there is spin in the articles & spin in your response to the articles. Spin is the master tool of the RWG.  You should read (or re-read) the last paragraph in 10488 for inspiration.


Seth says
M 2008-09-17 10:49:21 10498
There are objective facts in real life & in some articles.  If you screen out everything except your own point of view (& sources with your own point of view) you may end up with a pack of lies for company. There are objective facts in 10489 & there is spin in the articles & spin in your response to the articles. Spin is the master tool of the RWG.  You should read (or re-read) the last paragraph in 10488 for inspiration.

Mixing a bit of truth with spin and outright lies, imho classifies the article as spin.  Continually calling rwg on me is starting to make me puke ... that is unless you start identifying your own rwg.

Seth says
M 2008-09-17 10:15:59 10498
seth 2008-09-17 10:08:12 10498
Where did you hear about "Rules for Radicals" - be honest ?
What the hell does the answer to that question have to do with the content of the book? I heard about it when I finally found an article that exposed Hillary Clinton's college thesis which she had hidden from the public for a very long time.  I followed her thesis to the sources. I think I used Wikipedia on Alinsky for the stepping stone.

Where a person is accustomed to get their information tells us what context they choose to selective listen.  I for example will avoid Fox news and i never listen to right wing talk radio. I cannot watch Hannity without getting mad.  Rather I favor msnbc ... and can easily nod along with a  Rachael Meadows or a  Keith Oberman.  I admit to a liberal bias.  I think the legitimate question this item raises is whether we can distinguish between a spin article (whether left or right and whether we lean left or right) and the factual truths of History.   When you can admit to me that  this item is spin, then i will know that we have some small hope of sharing a purpose in [group unhackthebrain].  

Seth says
M 2008-09-17 11:44:27 10498
seth 2008-09-17 11:10:47 10498
M 2008-09-17 10:49:21 10498
-snip- Spin is the master tool of the RWG.  -snip-
Continually calling rwg on me is starting to make me puke ... that is unless you start identifying your own rwg.
It is interesting in this comment that you identified with the RWG! It is a general comment about tools & spin.

I didn't identify with it you  jerk, i am just telling you that it makes me puke.  Do not use it as a "tool" against me, unless you also use it as a tool against yourself.  Using your tactic, why did you identify with that aspect of my comment rather than with the one about mixing lies with truth ... then thinking you are telling the truth.  That was my substantive point. 

Mark de LA says
Because you have recently had a bug up your ass every time I bring up a consciousness of the RWG (you jerk!) - it is one of the commonest impediments to communication & will be noticed when necessary!


Seth says
M 2008-09-17 12:09:15 10498
Because you have recently had a bug up your ass every time I bring up a consciousness of the RWG (you jerk!) - it is one of the commonest impediments to communication & will be noticed when necessary!

That comment, just like this one, is rwg.  Self righteously "noting" others rwg and ignoring your own is the worst kind hypocrisy.  It does make me puke.  But what i find most nasuating is when you "note" this allegid rwg.  It seems to me that when i delve into a level of the dialogue in which your would need to acknowledge something in what i say to be at all rational, instead you rubber duck me and call rwg.  Everytime you do that, it cheepens our dialogue.  [The classical personal barb at the end deleted out of respect for my brother]

Mark de LA says
seth 2008-09-17 12:35:03 10498
M 2008-09-17 12:09:15 10498
Because you have recently had a bug up your ass every time I bring up a consciousness of the RWG (you jerk!) - it is one of the commonest impediments to communication & will be noticed when necessary!

That comment, just like this one, is rwg.  Self righteously "noting" others rwg and ignoring your own is the worst kind hypocrisy.  It does make me puke.  But what i find most nasuating is when you "note" this allegid rwg.  It seems to me that when i delve into a level of the dialogue in which your would need to acknowledge something in what i say to be at all rational, instead you rubber duck me and call rwg.  Everytime you do that, it cheepens our dialogue.  [The classical personal barb at the end deleted out of respect for my brother]
Calm down, very little of my last comments & posts have "called rwg against you". The above is no exception. Unfortunately, RWG is the gist of politics. I have mentioned it in a general sense when I see the context is futile, i.e. the argument will not convince based on the merits of one argument over the other. You were the first to use the word "jerk", not me.


Mark de LA says
Finally got my copy of Rules for Radicals today - paperback 196 pages. In many ways Alinsky has since this book said there are no rules.  It's hard to disagree with some of his writing, e.g.: this passage from the 3rd chapter - so appropriate for this discussion here:


Mark de LA says
Like any book, even the Bible or the Koran, can be used for good or evil!

Mark de LA says

Stuck In the Muck Mudslinging Isn't New. Here's the Messy Truth.
source: ... Thomas Jefferson was attacked by ministers who accused him of being an "infidel" and an "unbeliever." A Federalist cartoon depicted him as a drunken anarchist, and the president of Yale warned that if Jefferson came to power, "we may see our wives and daughters the victims of legal prostitution." A Connecticut newspaper warned that his election would mean "murder, robbery, rape, adultery and incest will openly be taught and practiced" -- though the paper, which is now the Hartford Courant, did apologize some years later.
...


Mark de LA says
Rules to test whether power tactics are ethical:

1. One's concern with the ethics of means and ends varies inversely with one's personal interest in the issue.
2. The judgment of the ethics of means is dependent upon the political position of those sitting in judgment.
3. In war the end justifies almost any means.
4. Judgment must be made in the context of the times in which the action occurred and not from any other chronological vantage point.
5. Concern with ethics increases with the number of means available and vice versa.
6. The less important the end to be desired, the more one can afford to engage in ethical evaluations of means.
7. Generally, success or failure is a mighty determinant of ethics.
8. The morality of means depends upon whether the means is being employed at a time of imminent defeat or imminent victory.
9. Any effective means is automatically judged by the opposition to be unethical.
10. You do what you can with what you have and clothe it in moral garments.
11. Goals must be phrased in general terms like "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity," "Of the Common Welfare," "Pursuit of Happiness," or "Bread and Peace."
... from the summary of Rules for Radicals here.

Seth says
Actually the cartoon is pretty funny ... it's almost true.

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-04-20 14:26:50 10498
Actually the cartoon is pretty funny ... it's almost true.
Yeah, it was funny to me. I added the extra Alinsky rules here (vs others) because it was also an example of the way we used to talk to each other back before the last presidential election.

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