Happy Martin Luther King, Jr. Day!
About: Wikipedia on MLK
I wonder if MLK would have endorsed 714 ? Once you erase race you can see the real people who were always there!
Tags
- mlk
- racism
- item 714
- fairness doctrine
Comments
Mark de LA says
M 2009-01-19 16:28:20 11299
seth 2009-01-19 14:20:21 11299
There is nothing that i know of in MLK's speeches that would indicate that he would naively confuse making race distinctions with racism.
Apparently Seth still has a vested interest in race & racism. MLK spoke to things which were common to all humans.
BTW, it's not the making of race distinctions that is the racism. It's the using of race distinctions to
reread: ... I say that anyone who uses the distinctions of race to argue, judge, excuse, blame, criticize, politicize, incite, agitate, allocate, study, educate, etc. is a RACIST !
...
Seth says
M 2009-01-20 11:35:17 11299
M 2009-01-19 16:28:20 11299
seth 2009-01-19 14:20:21 11299
There is nothing that i know of in MLK's speeches that would indicate that he would naively confuse making race distinctions with racism.
Apparently Seth still has a vested interest in race & racism. MLK spoke to things which were common to all humans.
BTW, it's not the making of race distinctions that is the racism. It's the using of race distinctions to
reread: ... I say that anyone who uses the distinctions of race to argue, judge, excuse, blame, criticize, politicize, incite, agitate, allocate, study, educate, etc. is a RACIST !
...
Thing is Mark i look at the way you use this definitional tool of yours to know what you really mean by it. Also i look at the context of other people like Limbaugh who seem to be running in the same track. Take for example [item 10003]
wherein you try to call Obama a racist just because he considers
himself to be the first black president of the USA. There have been
other examples as well but they escape me for the moment. You are
misusing the supposed lofty intent of you own definition. It appears to
me to be just an excuse to practice some kind of white black lash.
Racism is not perpertrated by torts on some scriptural definiton.
Rather it is malicious actions that harm people. Ask yourself who is harmed where Obama judged to be the first black president?
Mark de LA says
Your resistance to the idea which once you said
Calling himself the first black president is some kind of political calculus using & misusing the distinctions of race. Your side apparently prefers to pander to clusters of groupings rather than work to achieve results based on core principles. Your implications otherwise suck. One might suppose that if "being the first black" to ascend to the presidency was his only claim to fame then if that were taken away from the discussion then Obama is just another pol. One would hope that there is something else besides the usual politics there. Hopefully he can eventually transcent that & become known for something else. He certainly was not the youngest to become president, JFK was if my memory serves me right.
Rather than 4 more years of racism & race consciousness (remember he ran almost exclusively on race neutrality) I would prefer 4 more years of erasing race from the mentality of all those who use it for some purpose besides acknowledging an unimportant attribute of pigmentation & differentiation.
Your resistance to the idea which once you said
... unconceals some kind of personal investment in race. It is somewhat perplexing. With the Golden Rule it is obvious that were everyone to behave accordingly there would be little need for jails, laws & a multitude of lawyers. It is a simple crisp idea. Likewise, the abolishment of the importance of racial distinctions (which will be moot in a few thousand years) also is a nice crisp idea which solves the problem. There are a multitude of reasons why it is still being kept alive. Most of those are political or economic benefits to those who do keep the torch or racism alive.
Seth says
M 2009-01-21 11:46:31 11299
seth 2009-01-21 09:15:40 11299
Well I'm not going to get into another dialogue with you where you don't listen to me and i don't listen to you and I'm forced to just keep keep repeating myself. It is just too painful to read. Instead I'll just leave you with this thought: The absence of racism is tolerance.
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't read you. Intolerance and racism are different things with some common similarities. Spouses tolerate each other for a variety of reasons. Some say for the children, others say for support in old age. The point is that tolerance is insipid - it doesn't require mental & emotional congruency. It just requires behaving "as if". What I am looking for more approaches the "love one another as you would yourselves" - i.e. the golden rule.
There is nothing "insipid" about tolerance, it is one of the most useful and evolved behaviors of the human species. You will never have "mental and emotional congruency" with a black man who grew up in a ghetto. That is unrealistic. That is a pipe dream. But you can have love for him and empathize with his struggles and dreams. You can rejoice with him as he celebrates that one of his has made it to the highest office of the nation. That is tolerance, and that is the absence of racism. You will never have "mental and emotional congruency" with a man who grew up in the Gaza strip. But to make peace with him you must have appreciation for his predicament. That is tolerance. In the absence of tolerance you find faults without any regard for the differences that created them. That is what you are doing in 10003 and other places in fastblogit. Tolerance is where your feelings start with a comprehension of those differences. But that is not what you are doing. You are acting like the differences can just be ignored. That is naive - they cannot.
Mark de LA says
seth 2009-01-21 09:15:40 11299
Well I'm not going to get into another dialogue with you where you don't listen to me and i don't listen to you and I'm forced to just keep keep repeating myself. It is just too painful to read. Instead I'll just leave you with this thought: The absence of racism is tolerance.
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't read you. Intolerance and racism are different things with some common similarities. Spouses tolerate each other for a variety of reasons. Some say for the children, others say for support in old age. The point is that tolerance is insipid - it doesn't require mental & emotional congruency. It just requires behaving "as if". What I am looking for more approaches the "love one another as you would yourselves" - i.e. the golden rule.
Mark de LA says
Which would you prefer from me that I tolerate you or love you? Was JC saying tolerate your neighbor as you wish to be tolerated? Was he just bullshitting when he said love thy neighbor as thyself? When you say
Seth: ... "black man who grew up in a ghetto"
... you are suggesting that there is something special about that person that other humans who have not experienced can't grok. That belief somehow returns the cycle back to racism again for it ignores that which is common to all humans that is not connected to racial distinctions. Check yourself out please - that argument is racist! Because I am not black does not mean that I can't grok a black.
Seth says
M 2009-01-21 13:00:48 11299
Which would you prefer from me that I tolerate you or love you? Was JC saying tolerate your neighbor as you wish to be tolerated? Was he just bullshitting when he said love thy neighbor as thyself? When you say
Seth: ... "black man who grew up in a ghetto"
... you are suggesting that there is something special about that person that other humans who have not experienced can't grok. That belief somehow returns the cycle back to racism again for it ignores that which is common to all humans that is not connected to racial distinctions. Check yourself out please - that argument is racist! Because I am not black does not mean that I can't grok a black.
Because you are not black means that you can intellectually grock black; you can feel tolerance and love for the predicament; but, you will not (normally) have the visceral feelings, attitudes, and reactions of a black man. That is simple human psychology. Living a life gives you those feelings, attitudes, and reactions.
The word "tolerate" had some connotations by virtue of its usage that are not necessarily present in the word "tolerance". Many times you tolerate something even though you find it very distasteful. That is not what i mean to imply. Tolerance is where you accept as different and even respect and love those differences. At least that is how i have come to relate to the behavior which, i might add, allowed me to work myself out of a bad frame of craziness once. This is not a behavior to piss upon. You might want to study it yourself.
Yes, you can have respect and even love for a black man who grew up in a ghetto - you can have tolerances for how his attitudes and behaviors will always be different than you own. But to think that with casual measures you can have "mental and emotional congruency" with him is absurd. If you actually shared some of his pertinent experiences then you might come closer. Obviously you have not done that because otherwise you would have no problem celebrating the first black American presidency. Go find me a single black man who grew up in the ghetto, or who's ancestors grew up in the Jim Crow South, who does not celebrate that event. Celebrating that event does not make them a racist.
You are too absorbed in the intellectuality and rationalizations of your mind on this ... get real.
The word "tolerate" had some connotations by virtue of its usage that are not necessarily present in the word "tolerance". Many times you tolerate something even though you find it very distasteful. That is not what i mean to imply. Tolerance is where you accept as different and even respect and love those differences. At least that is how i have come to relate to the behavior which, i might add, allowed me to work myself out of a bad frame of craziness once. This is not a behavior to piss upon. You might want to study it yourself.
Yes, you can have respect and even love for a black man who grew up in a ghetto - you can have tolerances for how his attitudes and behaviors will always be different than you own. But to think that with casual measures you can have "mental and emotional congruency" with him is absurd. If you actually shared some of his pertinent experiences then you might come closer. Obviously you have not done that because otherwise you would have no problem celebrating the first black American presidency. Go find me a single black man who grew up in the ghetto, or who's ancestors grew up in the Jim Crow South, who does not celebrate that event. Celebrating that event does not make them a racist.
You are too absorbed in the intellectuality and rationalizations of your mind on this ... get real.
Seth says
Mark de LA says
seth 2009-01-21 14:23:18 11299
In summary ...
source: M above
I wonder if MLK would have endorsed 714?
I wonder if MLK would have endorsed 714?
No, he would not have.
The wierd, silly shit that you are professing sounds like you are trying now to speak for a black man - you've abdicated your authority. He was a preacher in the South at one time. He speaks for JC or at least from the bible.
No, he would not have.
The wierd, silly shit that you are professing sounds like you are trying now to speak for a black man - you've abdicated your authority. He was a preacher in the South at one time. He speaks for JC or at least from the bible.
Seth says
M 2009-01-21 15:37:25 11299
seth 2009-01-21 14:23:18 11299
In summary ...
source: M above
I wonder if MLK would have endorsed 714?
I wonder if MLK would have endorsed 714?
No, he would not have.
The wierd, silly shit that you are professing sounds like you are trying now to speak for a black man - you've abdicated your authority. He was a preacher in the South at one time. He speaks for JC or at least from the bible.
No, he would not have.
The wierd, silly shit that you are professing sounds like you are trying now to speak for a black man - you've abdicated your authority. He was a preacher in the South at one time. He speaks for JC or at least from the bible.
Imho, obviously. Find me a single African American who would endorse your spectacularly naive 714 and i will reconsider.
Mark de LA says
source: ... (Juan Williams, WSJ)
If his presidency is to represent the full power of the idea that black Americans are just like everyone else -- fully human and fully capable of intellect, courage and patriotism -- then Barack Obama has to be subject to the same rough and tumble of political criticism experienced by his predecessors. To treat the first black president as if he is a fragile flower is certain to hobble him. It is also to waste a tremendous opportunity for improving race relations by doing away with stereotypes and seeing the potential in all Americans.
Yet there is fear, especially among black people, that criticism of him or any of his failures might be twisted into evidence that people of color cannot effectively lead. That amounts to wasting time and energy reacting to hateful stereotypes. It also leads to treating all criticism of Mr. Obama, whether legitimate, wrong-headed or even mean-spirited, as racist.
This is patronizing. Worse, it carries an implicit presumption of inferiority. Every American president must be held to the highest standard. No president of any color should be given a free pass for screw-ups, lies or failure to keep a promise.
...P.S.
Mr. Williams, a political analyst for National Public Radio and Fox News, is the author of several books, including "Eyes on the Prize: America's Civil Rights Years, 1954-1965" (Penguin, 1988), and "Enough: The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America -- and What We Can Do About It" (Crown, 2006).
Read the whole editorial if you dare!
Seth says
Well i haven't heard anybody saying not to criticize Obama - i certainly plan to whenever i disagree with him.
source: Mr Williams
Yet there is fear, especially among black people, that criticism of him or any of his failures might be twisted into evidence that people of color cannot effectively lead. That amounts to wasting time and energy reacting to hateful stereotypes. It also leads to treating all criticism of Mr. Obama, whether legitimate, wrong-headed or even mean-spirited, as racist.
Yet there is fear, especially among black people, that criticism of him or any of his failures might be twisted into evidence that people of color cannot effectively lead. That amounts to wasting time and energy reacting to hateful stereotypes. It also leads to treating all criticism of Mr. Obama, whether legitimate, wrong-headed or even mean-spirited, as racist.
To me that is a straw man.
What is more pertinent to the current discussion is when he describes the historic event ...
What is more pertinent to the current discussion is when he describes the historic event ...
source: Mr Williams
The calloused hands of slaves, the voices of abolitionists, the hearts of generations who trusted in the naïve promise that any child can become president, will find some reward in a moment that was hard to imagine last year, much less 50 years ago. Our history, so marred by the sin of slavery, has come to the day when a man that an old segregationist would have described as "tea-colored" -- the child of a white woman and an African immigrant, who identifies as a member of the long oppressed and despised black minority -- was chosen by a mostly white nation as the personification of America's best sense of self as a nation of power and virtue.
The calloused hands of slaves, the voices of abolitionists, the hearts of generations who trusted in the naïve promise that any child can become president, will find some reward in a moment that was hard to imagine last year, much less 50 years ago. Our history, so marred by the sin of slavery, has come to the day when a man that an old segregationist would have described as "tea-colored" -- the child of a white woman and an African immigrant, who identifies as a member of the long oppressed and despised black minority -- was chosen by a mostly white nation as the personification of America's best sense of self as a nation of power and virtue.
According to Mark that must be "misusing the distinctions of race".
Btw, Obama did not run as a black man, as did Jessie Jackson - rather he brought up race only reluctantly in response to others. Many have said that is one of the reasons he won. The strange thing is that M now accuses him of doing exactly that which he did not do.
Btw, Obama did not run as a black man, as did Jessie Jackson - rather he brought up race only reluctantly in response to others. Many have said that is one of the reasons he won. The strange thing is that M now accuses him of doing exactly that which he did not do.
Mark de LA says
I think at this point I will just tolerate Seth's opinions on this subject matter. To argue from his point of view is to argue for a separateness gap which can never be joined; to argue from his point of view is to miss the power of forgiveness & bury a mindshare in either an eternal shame of a slave master or slave for all generations to have to explain over & over again; to argue from his point of view belies even Obama's coming together message.
Mark de LA says
FYI, JFK was the youngest to be elected president. Theodore Roosevelt was the youngest to become president! The latter was VP & became president because McKinley was assasinated.
Seth says
M 2009-01-22 05:24:50 11299
I think at this point I will just tolerate Seth's opinions on this subject matter. To argue from his point of view is to argue for a separateness gap which can never be joined; to argue from his point of view is to miss the power of forgiveness & bury a mindshare in either an eternal shame of a slave master or slave for all generations to have to explain over & over again; to argue from his point of view belies even Obama's coming together message.
Nope, there is no implication in my view for a separateness that cannot be joined. A better summary of my view might be: you do not need a black face to enjoy this moment.
Mark de LA says
You obviously missed the point as well as a lot of the others on this item. I will tolerate that for now! Your last is really off topic. You were probably thinking this was 11281 or 11279 & I would agree if you were talking about 11325 .
Mark de LA says
seth 2009-01-22 10:15:31 11299
My only intent here was to assure you that my point of view does not "argue for a separateness gap which can never be joined".
If you are arguing that I can't get, grok or empathize with a "black man raided in the ghetto" because I am not one then you are arguing such!
Seth says
M 2009-01-22 13:16:23 11299
seth 2009-01-22 10:15:31 11299
My only intent here was to assure you that my point of view does not "argue for a separateness gap which can never be joined".
If you are arguing that I can't get, grok or empathize with a "black man raided in the ghetto" because I am not one then you are arguing such!
Right, so i am obviously not arguing that.
What i am saying is that you should be able to empathize with a black man raised in the ghetto, or raised in the Jim Crow South who celebrates Obama as the first black president; even though you may not be able to feel the same emotions as he does because of your different history. You should be able to respect that he legitimately feels an excitement here and that expressing it is not racists. Limbaugh expessed the opposite view below to Hannity ... you echoed it when you said in comments above "Calling himself the first black president is some kind of political calculus using & misusing the distinctions of race".
What i am saying is that you should be able to empathize with a black man raised in the ghetto, or raised in the Jim Crow South who celebrates Obama as the first black president; even though you may not be able to feel the same emotions as he does because of your different history. You should be able to respect that he legitimately feels an excitement here and that expressing it is not racists. Limbaugh expessed the opposite view below to Hannity ... you echoed it when you said in comments above "Calling himself the first black president is some kind of political calculus using & misusing the distinctions of race".
source: Limbaugh talking to Hannity
You know racism in this country is the exclusive province of the left. We're witnessing racism all this week that led up to the inauguration. We're being told that we have to hope he succeeds. That we have to bend over, grab the ankles, bend forward, backward, whichever. Because his father was black, because this is the first black president. We've got to accept this. The racism that everybody thinks exists on our side of the aisle has been on full display throughout their primary campaign.
You know racism in this country is the exclusive province of the left. We're witnessing racism all this week that led up to the inauguration. We're being told that we have to hope he succeeds. That we have to bend over, grab the ankles, bend forward, backward, whichever. Because his father was black, because this is the first black president. We've got to accept this. The racism that everybody thinks exists on our side of the aisle has been on full display throughout their primary campaign.
This is a wierd kind of reaction where being exerbruant about overcomming racial barriers allegidly becomes a form of racism. Sorry i don't buy it.
Mark de LA says
It's probably not the exuberance that Rush is concerned with. I don't speak for him. I think you took my other words out of context & I'm too tired to chase it.
Perhaps people on your side are not used to using the word distinction very often if at all. It is the generic idea behind the big dipper effect. Indeed racism is one pernicious species of the big dipper effect.
Nobody is saying on my side of the chasm that you shouldn't make distinctions in your perception that involve race - you probably can't help it or stop it. OTOH, don't use them to
source: ...
argue, judge, excuse, blame, criticize, politicize, incite, agitate, allocate, study, educate, etc.
argue, judge, excuse, blame, criticize, politicize, incite, agitate, allocate, study, educate, etc.
... secondly, to run a predominately raceless campaign in order to get elected & then celebrate as a member of a race is just a bit disingenuous. It will all play itself out anyway. Some of the stockyard smell blowing in the wind is this item from one of Obama's advisers & some members of congress. Don't you think it's racist?
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