Threefold Headlessness

About: google books: Trail of the Serpent

As I was surfing for organizations today which are inspired by Rudolph Steiner's Threefold Commonwealth I ran into the above fascinating book that has a chapter on RS.  The pertinent area in a google books review of that chapter calls it headless. Many have been frustrated for the lack of implementation details or the appearance of someone to lead them to the promised land. The following is extracted to characterize the headless idea from person writing the book (pseudonym Inquire Within - Trail of the Serpent)

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  1. threefold
  2. headlessness

Comments


Mark de LA says
Some also use the metaphor of the hologram as idea of how we are all are connected as if the hologram is God & each of is a different view of the same hologram. This is could also stimulate the zen idea of unity if you stretch your imagination.



Mark de LA says
Now what might a well organized structure that is headless look like given that it is headless or no overtly hierarchical?
A cube? A very diverse & many propertied cube example can be found here.
A tetrak? A very diverse cube of cubes & more dimensions.
The commentary begins around pg. 211 of the above mentioned book.
Essentially associations of people with vested interest as stakeholders in a particular dimension such as economics or education or law gather together to formulate their domains in accordance to the realities of the times.
This should begin to look somewhat like dynamic association because people will become stakeholders in many different domains. This might show up as something between the extremes of flashmobs & Obama's thinktank meetings.

Mark de LA says
If you know that a loaf of bread will be $500 if you raise the price of your toilet paper to $800 you might negotiate differently. They are connected.  Right now the price of healthcare, which in the threefold system would not even be a commodity, has become extremely high relative to the rest of the goods & most of the services that people need; predominately because it is something that critical & people can't do without for the most part. Energy & transportation similarly moved up the ladder recently to very expensive.  We need to start bartering so that the abstraction of money gets lost for a while.  I will grant that it is not an easy grok to model.


Mark de LA says
IMHO, we need to start something like bartering between the producers of goods & services with eachother, not between labor & capital, for the values of goods & services as a whole & relative to eachother.  Having the government determine such would be a mistake! Labor against Capital only serves to create higher prices for those goods & services which bargain better against capital, like unions & striking. Somehow, it seems that the various means & capital necessary for labor to produce goods & services should be negotiating with eachother for what needs to be produced & labor should be negotiating with eachother for the value of the goods & services compared with other ones. 
Anyway, it would be fun to model such an arrangement to see if it would work!


Seth says
source: M proposes above
bartering between the producers of goods & services with eachother, not between labor & capital
I don't grok how that could work.  You have parties negotiating with each who have no stakes with each other.  As a worker i can negotiate with you as a employer because what i take you have to give; but that is not the case between a baker of bread and a manufacturer of cars.  Producers don't have any leverage to force other producers prices down.  But even granting that they could get together in a smoke filled room and fix prices between each other, how would their employees have any voice in the process at all?

Mark de LA says
     As a consideration we have matrix management for a decentralized structure for accomplishment. I have worked under it and it is sometimes very confusing; particularly in the area of managing one's time to satisfy multiple sources of priority. The only ameliorating concept is that of having the individual set his own deadlines & tasks commit to those deadlines for all the work that he must do. In the computer world this is called agile programming & the management agile processes. Scrum is such a species of agile development.
     BTW, this is not what RS is talking about which is much more of an individual transformation.  I bring this up to help imagine what it would be like to have a threefold structure of governments & national & even international being.
     The concept of integrity embodies saying ahead of time what you intend to do & then actually doing what you say. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-05-16 06:29:44 11604
M 2013-05-16 06:18:37 11604
seth 2013-05-16 06:00:06 11604
I think the realization that equality is contradictory to liberty becomes the lever that would make the threefold society work.
It is more like interpenetrating worlds.  We are completely free to experience whatever we can in our souls from a life of complete hedonism to one dedicated to the sublimest goals of humanity..  We are beings with bodies, souls & spirits.  But, our bodies follow physical laws & our spirits the laws of the Spiritual world.  The triads were enumerated in 15300



How is that thought associated with the realization that "equality is contradictory to liberty" ?
You are thinking random association stuff & I am thinking about the whole organization of society & the human being.
We are not equal in our abilities & lots of other places. ( boo hoo.)
Equality is in the rights sphere where it belongs (equal justice before the law).
Freedom or liberty is (or s/b) in the domain of education & art.  See more of 15300. The contradiction is within you. It is not binary.
Another analogy is our corporial existence gives us the freedom to think what we will. But our physical existence also requires food, clothing & shelter of some kinds - not freedom. There is an interpenetrating co-existence that can be seen if you look .


Seth says
M 2013-05-16 06:45:01 11604
seth 2013-05-16 06:29:44 11604
M 2013-05-16 06:18:37 11604
seth 2013-05-16 06:00:06 11604
I think the realization that equality is contradictory to liberty becomes the lever that would make the threefold society work.
It is more like interpenetrating worlds.  We are completely free to experience whatever we can in our souls from a life of complete hedonism to one dedicated to the sublimest goals of humanity..  We are beings with bodies, souls & spirits.  But, our bodies follow physical laws & our spirits the laws of the Spiritual world.  The triads were enumerated in 15300



How is that thought associated with the realization that "equality is contradictory to liberty" ?
You are thinking random association stuff & I am thinking about the whole organization of society & the human being.
We are not equal in our abilities & lots of other places. ( boo hoo.)
Equality is in the rights sphere where it belongs (equal justice before the law).
Freedom or liberty is (or s/b) in the domain of education & art.  See more of 15300. The contradiction is within you. It is not binary.
Another analogy is our corporal existence gives us the freedom to think what we will. But our physical existence also requires food, clothing & shelter of some kinds - not freedom. There is an interpenetrating co-existence that can be seen if you look .


Well my "random association" came from the second sentence of the quote you put in the body of this item:
source: Trail of the Serpent
"Admitting that equality and liberty are contradictory, Steiner is in sympathy with all three, and applies them to his threefold State. "
When i first read that my mind went tilt and i had to think a moment to grock why it was true.  If people were left to total freedom, then the powerful would rob the weak of their freedom.  That is pretty much the way things work in our world to the best of my experience.  Consequently if you want equality, you must needs restrain some freedom.  I think that is what the author was implying.  That contradiction is not within me ... that contradiction is just part of human social behavior. 

It is a strange thought for me to think that "my corporal existence is what gives me the freedom to think what i will".   It seems to me that freedom springs from my spirit.  But, yes, i can see how "my corporal existence" is restrained by its need for food and shelter.

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-05-16 08:08:31 11604
M 2013-05-16 08:01:17 11604
Well is that Steiner or the writer of Trail of the Serpent ?
You seem to be using the most political argument which is not threefold at all in the context of today. You must get outside the box of leftwing/rightwing (binary, zero-sum) politics to grok threefold.


I don't know, whose words those were ... i was kind of hoping that you did.

I totally fail to see how the only thing i said, "I think the realization that equality is contradictory to liberty becomes the lever that would make the threefold society work", qualifies as an argument for or against any partisan political opinion. 


Your capacity for confusion is exceeding my interest in intriguing inquisitiveness. I showed you where they fit in both to the human being & the social organism & a lot of previous writings.
You () are free to think what you want & be confused. Wow! That latter statement is somewhat like your idea about association. Maybe quit associating confusion with what I said, eh?


Mark de LA says
seth 2013-05-16 08:12:05 11604
M 2013-05-16 08:05:24 11604
seth 2013-05-16 08:02:42 11604
Another thought is that corporal existence is, as you say, what restrains and presses its needs on us.  And it is not just the need for food and shelter.   Habit itself is one of the primary restraints on our freedom to think what we will.  Most of the time we think the thoughts that we have habitually thought.  I think the habit of doing that comes directly from our, as you term it, "corporal existence".
You are free to think what you want.  You may not know how to do it, however. You will die if you don't satisfy the physical needs.


Do you not think that "you are free to think what you want" contradicts "you may not know how to do it" ?   because i sure do.

"You will die if you don't satisfy the physical needs" is certainly true.  What it has to do with the above "contradiction" is, apparently, beyond my pay grade. 
Presumably, you have the capacity to gain more knowledge & know-how!
Maybe not!


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