Continued Debate (or NOT)

[Seth: item 11956]: ... In other administration branding, Obama adopts MR's favorite slogan ...
source: Obama's speech at Notre Dame commencement
For if there is one law that we can be most certain of, it is the law that binds people of all faiths and no faith together. It's no coincidence that it exists in Christianity and Judaism; in Islam and Hinduism; in Buddhism and humanism. It is, of course, the Golden Rule " the call to treat one another as we wish to be treated. The call to love. The call to serve. To do what we can to make a difference in the lives of those with whom we share the same brief moment on this Earth.
... well said there too .

...
I've never noticed those of no faith particularly united with those of us that have some. The topics of abortion & global warming seem to demonstrate exactly the opposite. It seems more like political expedience, the church of global warming,  socialism & the sacrament of abortions binds people together these days in an unholy alliance more than the Golden Rule.

Tags

  1. abortion
  2. global warming
  3. golden rule
  4. item 3528
  5. roe v. wade

Comments


Mark de LA says
seth 2009-05-21 10:58:55 11982
source: MR asks
Where is the middle ground between your not having been aborted as a baby & the retro-possibility that you might have been?
The middle ground is to have policies which decrease the number of such abortions.
The greatest decrease of the number of abortions would be to outlaw it entirely!!! Now you are on the pro-life side! Congratulations!


Mark de LA says
seth 2009-05-21 10:39:22 11982
In a black and white world like in this cartoon, having "no middle ground" has dire consequences. Thanks TheWeek.com ...




Where is the middle ground between your not having been aborted as a baby & the retro-possibility that you might have been??????????

Mark de LA says
The Catholic Church & any religious group is free to express their own guidance to their respective flocks. This is OK & is supported by the first amendment as well as threefoldness which has that the spiritual should be free from economics & politics. The guidance of culture & social life is fed by free spirits & should also feed the politics, but from within the individual participants (not from the outside); just like the Golden Rule - a distinction lost by most people & politicians.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-05-21 12:20:31 11982
MR 2009-05-21 11:06:22 11982
seth 2009-05-21 10:58:55 11982
source: MR asks
Where is the middle ground between your not having been aborted as a baby & the retro-possibility that you might have been?
The middle ground is to have policies which decrease the number of such abortions.
The greatest decrease of the number of abortions would be to outlaw it entirely!!! Now you are on the pro-life side! Congratulations!

Perhaps it would decrease abortions, perhaps it wouldn't; but it will certainly cause many a womb to bleed from back alley abortions and it will break your famous 3528.  You keep forgetting 3528.  Perhaps you never did actually mean what you said there.
Nope! I just carried Obama's & your arguments to their logical conclusion if he/you really want to decrease the numbers of abortions that's one way.  My preference is still 3528 if abortion is still legal. It is the Gordian knot slayer of that litmus test for judges & legislation made possible by woman's lib & a miss-guided Supreme Court that found a right that didn't exist in the U.S. Constitution. The Golden Rule should inform such people what it can't demand because the Golden Rule is internal. 

Seth says
MR 2009-05-21 12:29:24 11982
seth 2009-05-21 12:20:31 11982
MR 2009-05-21 11:06:22 11982
seth 2009-05-21 10:58:55 11982
source: MR asks
Where is the middle ground between your not having been aborted as a baby & the retro-possibility that you might have been?
The middle ground is to have policies which decrease the number of such abortions.
The greatest decrease of the number of abortions would be to outlaw it entirely!!! Now you are on the pro-life side! Congratulations!

Perhaps it would decrease abortions, perhaps it wouldn't; but it will certainly cause many a womb to bleed from back alley abortions and it will break your famous 3528.  You keep forgetting 3528.  Perhaps you never did actually mean what you said there.
Nope! I just carried Obama's & your arguments to their logical conclusion if he/you really want to decrease the numbers of abortions that's one way.  My preference is still 3528 if abortion is still legal. It is the Gordian knot slayer of that litmus test for judges & legislation made possible by woman's lib & a miss-guided Supreme Court that found a right that didn't exist in the U.S. Constitution. The Golden Rule should inform such people what it can't demand because the Golden Rule is internal. 
Well the Supreme court did find that it is a private and "internal" choice for women to make, upholding, in effect ,3528, and preventing state governments from infringing on 3528.  Yet you claim the court has over stepped its authority upholding the very issue that you yourself have proffered.  But if the the court overturns its ruling, then state governments will proceed to infringe on your 3528.   Your particular choice of arguments can not obtain in this world ... they are inconsistent.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-05-22 10:42:13 11982
MR 2009-05-21 21:36:13 11982
     The fact that the Supreme Court found a right that didn't exist is why we have the mess we have today on the subject.  It doesn't reject my arguments. It goes to the need to choose supreme court justices wisely.  Those that want to make history & revise the law to serve some social purpose ought to be shunned like a turd in the swimming pool.
     Let the ruling stand; I am not in favor of changing it.  OTOH 3528 is my best way to get out of the mess they made. It is none of any government's business.

See i knew we could find common ground: at least we both agree that RVW should be left to stand.  As to blaming RVW for "the mess we have today on the subject", the alternative was for state governments to make it their business to ban abortion which was breaking 3528.  RVW works to support the principal of 3528, how is it making a mess?  It has eliminated the patchwork of state laws infinging on 3528.  Now there is more common ground her in that i also do not believe that the courts should pioneer new law ... but that aside, is not RVW working to uniformily enforce your principal in the US ? 
We need a constitutional amendment to treat abortion like the first amendment & remove all governments from interfering.  Then like the Golden Rule each person is responsible for his own behavior & can't blame it on the state. Again like the Golden Rule the fact that something is legal, moral & nonfattening (or the converse) must be compared from all points of view as if the person doing it were the recipient of the doings; the Golden Rule organ or perception in the heart assisting in the final judgement.  Using that "organ" I have no trouble judging whether abortion is right or wrong but, also using that "organ" I can respect the dictum "judge not lest ye be judged!"

Seth says
MR 2009-05-22 11:58:22 11982
seth 2009-05-22 10:42:13 11982
MR 2009-05-21 21:36:13 11982
     The fact that the Supreme Court found a right that didn't exist is why we have the mess we have today on the subject.  It doesn't reject my arguments. It goes to the need to choose supreme court justices wisely.  Those that want to make history & revise the law to serve some social purpose ought to be shunned like a turd in the swimming pool.
     Let the ruling stand; I am not in favor of changing it.  OTOH 3528 is my best way to get out of the mess they made. It is none of any government's business.

See i knew we could find common ground: at least we both agree that RVW should be left to stand.  As to blaming RVW for "the mess we have today on the subject", the alternative was for state governments to make it their business to ban abortion which was breaking 3528.  RVW works to support the principal of 3528, how is it making a mess?  It has eliminated the patchwork of state laws infinging on 3528.  Now there is more common ground her in that i also do not believe that the courts should pioneer new law ... but that aside, is not RVW working to uniformily enforce your principal in the US ? 
We need a constitutional amendment to treat abortion like the first amendment & remove all governments from interfering.  Then like the Golden Rule each person is responsible for his own behavior & can't blame it on the state. Again like the Golden Rule the fact that something is legal, moral & nonfattening (or the converse) must be compared from all points of view as if the person doing it were the recipient of the doings; the Golden Rule organ or perception in the heart assisting in the final judgement.  Using that "organ" I have no trouble judging whether abortion is right or wrong but, also using that "organ" I can respect the dictum "judge not lest ye be judged!"
The problem is that it is politically impossible in America today, or even in the foreseeable future, to pass a constitutional amendment against abortion.  The practical value of your train of thought is null.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-05-22 13:24:28 11982
-snip-
The problem is that it is politically impossible in America today, or even in the foreseeable future, to pass a constitutional amendment against abortion.  The practical value of your train of thought is null.
I would have thought that it was practically impossible to pass a huge boondoggle tax on energy in the name of an imaginary crisis in global warming but it is about to happen. See you on the other side of insanity!


Seth says
MR 2009-05-22 16:41:37 11982
seth 2009-05-22 13:24:28 11982
-snip-
The problem is that it is politically impossible in America today, or even in the foreseeable future, to pass a constitutional amendment against abortion.  The practical value of your train of thought is null.
I would have thought that it was practically impossible to pass a huge boondoggle tax on energy in the name of an imaginary crisis in global warming but it is about to happen. See you on the other side of insanity!

Well there we have it ... your abortion train of though reduced to its final non sequitur. Though i am pro choice and believe in the wisdom of 3528, i at least respect the logical consistency of the establishment pro-life agenda which, after overturning Roe, would finally demolish  3528 as the many states banned abortion.   At least that agenda exists in a possible world.   But what i find telling, indeed, is how every argument you have ever proffered here, sans 3528 itself, has been in support of that pro-life agenda.  It is almost as if you penned it to excuse some deficiency in pro-life.  Then, having discovered that 3528 leads naturally to pro-choice, you choose irrationality rather than acknowledge the wisdom of pro-choce. Originally, why did you pen 3528 ?

Mark de LA says
     I have said it already - how long do you want to argue about it. You miss-characterise the meaning of my various writings. You obviously want to put me in one camp or the other - that is your mistake.   3528 is the best stand to take with a flawed supreme court who legislated from the bench - 8 men & a woman - wrote new law where none existed usurping that power given to the US Congress & the people.  The law is imperfect. It is only the rational & logical record of a people and agreements assumed to be will of people who desire to be called civilized. 
     I also speak of a higher law I call the Golden Rule, one I am willing to be judged by although on occasion as I look back it might be uncomfortable or painful. No law of man can usurp such because it does not depend upon man's judgement to enforce it. He enforces it himself regardless of whether he believes in it or not when he chooses to continue his evolution with the good forces leading mankind. He can, of course desire to go his own direction (away from mankind) but that will eventually be no concern of mine. 
     As far as politics go 3528 puts abortion in the camp of the individual as is religion & the right to free expression of speech etc.  Pro-Life (anti-abortion) & Pro-Choice (abortion) are just memes spread by politicians to garner support from one demographic or another.  Currently the country is far more anti-abortion (with some strange contradictions) than most people think.  The pro-choice (abortion) crowd can not stand an all out real debate on the subject because it would loose. So it sits around dreaming up all kinds of ways to sell the abortion idea without using that word.

Mark de LA says
MR 2009-05-24 10:02:32 11982
My error  the Supreme Court had no women justices in the court that decided Roe V. Wade:

All of whom are dead!!!

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