Cheney Ordered CIA to Hide Operation From Congress
About: Google News Front
Here is a news front to track and comment on ...
source: memeorandum 06-12-2009
That is similar to the Google News Front which goes under the title from a foxnews report, "Democrats Call for Probe Over Canceled CIA Program Never Reviewed by Congress". Cheney Is Linked to Concealment of C.I.A. Project " The Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency's director, Leon E. Panetta …
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In this item we can track not only the news front and it's identity and how the front and its identity changes over time, but also how we feel about what is happening.
I think the following is the first and probably most factual report of the subject of the news front:
source: Bloomberg
July 12 (Bloomberg) -- Former Vice President Dick Cheney ordered the Central Intelligence Agency to withhold information from Congress about a secret counterterrorism operation, the New York Times reported, citing two unidentified people.
Current CIA Director Leon Panetta told lawmakers about Cheney’s role in keeping the program secret on June 24, the newspaper said, citing “two people with direct knowledge.” The Times said attempts to reach Cheney for comment through “relatives and associates” failed.
On July 10, California Representative Anna Eshoo, a Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said the CIA was directed not to inform Congress of a long-running intelligence operation. The intelligence operation -- about which no details were provided -- was begun by the Bush administration in 2001 and terminated by Panetta last month. The committee will “determine if any laws have been broken,” Eshoo said.
The National Security Act dictates that the president make sure the House and Senate intelligence committees are “fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States,” the New York Times said. Paul Gimigliano, a CIA spokesman, declined to comment on Cheney’s role in the program, the newspaper said.
July 12 (Bloomberg) -- Former Vice President Dick Cheney ordered the Central Intelligence Agency to withhold information from Congress about a secret counterterrorism operation, the New York Times reported, citing two unidentified people.
Current CIA Director Leon Panetta told lawmakers about Cheney’s role in keeping the program secret on June 24, the newspaper said, citing “two people with direct knowledge.” The Times said attempts to reach Cheney for comment through “relatives and associates” failed.
On July 10, California Representative Anna Eshoo, a Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said the CIA was directed not to inform Congress of a long-running intelligence operation. The intelligence operation -- about which no details were provided -- was begun by the Bush administration in 2001 and terminated by Panetta last month. The committee will “determine if any laws have been broken,” Eshoo said.
The National Security Act dictates that the president make sure the House and Senate intelligence committees are “fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States,” the New York Times said. Paul Gimigliano, a CIA spokesman, declined to comment on Cheney’s role in the program, the newspaper said.
...
Tags
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Comments
Mark de LA says
MR 2009-07-12 10:16:32 12225
Yep, with Obama's poll numbers going south because the stimulus is not working (in spite of his recent bullshit) it's back to square one running against Bush Administration to overwhelm the news fronts of the failed economic policy. Palin only worked for a little while.
your source above: ...
"This, of course, comes on the heels of a statement -- unproven, by the way -- of Speaker Pelosi that the CIA had lied to her about enhanced interrogation techniques, and this looks to me suspiciously like an attempt to provide political cover to her and others," said Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, adding that he thinks Congress should have been briefed about any new CIA programs.
"To trot out the vice president and say he's the one that's at fault -- this is -- unfortunately sounds like a new theme where they still want to blame the Bush-Cheney administration for the economy and for other things," Cornyn told "FOX News Sunday."
...mostly Democrat rumor mongering at this point. My question is what was it? Was it in a planning state or active use. Did it yield good intel? The other bullshit is just posturing of the Pelosi-Feinstein axis.
Seth says
source: MR above
...mostly Democrat rumor mongering at this point.
...mostly Democrat rumor mongering at this point.
That is not an accurate characterization of what has just happened. Here is a more accurate one ...
source: NYT
The Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency’s director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday.
The Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency’s director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday.
... Panetta is in a position to know. This is not a rumor. Something actually did happen here. Penetta learned the details of this program and also that Congress was not briefed on by direct orders from the VP. But you didnt get that by reading the titled Google article. Me thinks memorandum chose a better exemplar article to base the news front.
Seth says
What specifically are you calling a rumor? Certainly this recently unclassified report from the offices of the Inspector General is not rumor. It details the Bush administrations end run around its own justice department. Section IV (especially C,D, E and F) make for very good reading. Nor is the statement issued by Penetta.
You know i don't think people are saying that these things shouldn't have been done. What is being said is that we are a country based upon law and that nobody is above the law. That is just our American way to do things. If you want otherwise, they you should relocate to Iran or some of the African or South American jurisdictions. They don't give a shit about the law over there.
MR 2009-07-12 11:10:15 12225
seth 2009-07-12 10:49:46 12225
source: MR above
...mostly Democrat rumor mongering at this point.
...mostly Democrat rumor mongering at this point.
That is not an accurate characterization of what has just happened. Here is a more accurate one ...
source: NYT
The Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency’s director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday.
The Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency’s director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday.
... Panetta is in a position to know. This is not a rumor. Something actually did happen here. Penetta learned the details of this program and also that Congress was not briefed on by direct orders from the VP. But you didnt get that by reading the titled Google article. Me thinks memorandum chose a better exemplar article to base the news front.
Right now the content is rumor. Everything from assassinating foreign leaders to whatever else is rumormongering in your news front. Nobody has answered any of the questions I have posed. Specifically, what is it? Normally, in courts anyway, a hearsay from an unnamed source is discounted. In the news front rumor mill going on in your blog now anything can be believed & your side will stoke your megaphones.
You know i don't think people are saying that these things shouldn't have been done. What is being said is that we are a country based upon law and that nobody is above the law. That is just our American way to do things. If you want otherwise, they you should relocate to Iran or some of the African or South American jurisdictions. They don't give a shit about the law over there.
Seth says
Interesting how the Google News Front changes titles as it grows. Now the exemplar article that gives the title is "Cheney ordered CIA to hide the plan" from the BBC. The front is much more fleshed out now. We don't have the transcript of the Senate or House intelligence committees and probably never will. It's an easy and obvious stoke to deny it happened or attack the sources. I wonder what Chaney will say in his own defense.
Seth says
MR 2009-07-12 15:51:37 12225
So answer the question that the headline & newsfront never tells you - What is it that Cheney's program does that is against the law. What did program do? I'm not going to read a bunch of bullshit to find out that the answer is not there.
Well I also would like to know specifically what laws were broken, for instance and why You's memo was deemed to be on such shaky legal grounds. I think it has to do with variations on Nixon's theme when he said, "If the president does it, it's not illegal". Apparently the lawyers don't accept that kind of reasoning ... even those in the Bush administration like Ashcroft.
Btw, saying your not going to read XYZ is a good explanation why your opinions are pretty surfacy and uninteresting of late.
Btw, saying your not going to read XYZ is a good explanation why your opinions are pretty surfacy and uninteresting of late.
Seth says
I finally chose a title for this news front. We will see how the other fronts evolve from there.
Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-12 17:41:20 12225
MR 2009-07-12 15:51:37 12225
So answer the question that the headline & newsfront never tells you - What is it that Cheney's program does that is against the law. What did program do? I'm not going to read a bunch of bullshit to find out that the answer is not there.
Well I also would like to know specifically what laws were broken, for instance and why You's memo was deemed to be on such shaky legal grounds. I think it has to do with variations on Nixon's theme when he said, "If the president does it, it's not illegal". Apparently the lawyers don't accept that kind of reasoning ... even those in the Bush administration like Ashcroft.
Btw, saying your not going to read XYZ is a good explanation why your opinions are pretty surfacy and uninteresting of late.
Btw, saying your not going to read XYZ is a good explanation why your opinions are pretty surfacy and uninteresting of late.
Just because your to lazy to read & extract the pertinent information to support your point of view does not mean you have made your argument. Telling me to do that flushes any care I have that you have a point. I have lots more interesting things to read.
Seth says
source: MR on 12134
[This] is an example of an entire news front with little substance & nobody on the record to provide much.
[This] is an example of an entire news front with little substance & nobody on the record to provide much.
That is just not true. Feinstein is on record. Panetta is on record, he is the head of the CIA.
source: NYT
Ms. Feinstein, a Democrat of California, said on “Fox News Sunday” that Mr. Panetta had told senators last month about Mr. Cheney ordering that the program not be disclosed to Congress.
Ms. Feinstein, a Democrat of California, said on “Fox News Sunday” that Mr. Panetta had told senators last month about Mr. Cheney ordering that the program not be disclosed to Congress.
Sure we don't know which of Panetta's employees brought the situation
to Panetta, but nothing would change even if we knew that. What we
don't know is the nature of the program which Chaney didn't want
Congress to know about. That's what i want to know, just out of
purient interest.
Thing is, certainly all covert projects that are in the planning stage should not be disclosed to Congressional leaders. In that regard I wonder what all the fuss is about.
Thing is, certainly all covert projects that are in the planning stage should not be disclosed to Congressional leaders. In that regard I wonder what all the fuss is about.
Seth says
And a point of law ...
source: Christian Science Monitor
The National Security Act of 1947 does require Congress to be briefed about CIA operations. Section 501 states unequivocally that “the President shall ensure that the congressional intelligence committees are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity….”
The National Security Act of 1947 does require Congress to be briefed about CIA operations. Section 501 states unequivocally that “the President shall ensure that the congressional intelligence committees are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity….”
...
Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-13 08:59:55 12225
And a point of law ...
source: Christian Science Monitor
The National Security Act of 1947 does require Congress to be briefed about CIA operations. Section 501 states unequivocally that “the President shall ensure that the congressional intelligence committees are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity….”
The National Security Act of 1947 does require Congress to be briefed about CIA operations. Section 501 states unequivocally that “the President shall ensure that the congressional intelligence committees are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity….”
...
source: ...
The precise nature of the highly classified effort isn't clear, and the CIA won't comment on its substance.
According to current and former government officials, the agency spent money on planning and possibly some training. It was acting on a 2001 presidential legal pronouncement, known as a finding, which authorized the CIA to pursue such efforts. The initiative hadn't become fully operational at the time Mr. Panetta ended it.
... sounds like ordinary James Bond type stuff. If Congress wants to micro-manage the CIA it ought to have some experts in intelligence & espionage in their oversight committee rather than politicians IMHO.
Seth says
MR 2009-07-13 10:01:37 12225
[snip]
source: ...
The precise nature of the highly classified effort isn't clear, and the CIA won't comment on its substance.
According to current and former government officials, the agency spent money on planning and possibly some training. It was acting on a 2001 presidential legal pronouncement, known as a finding, which authorized the CIA to pursue such efforts. The initiative hadn't become fully operational at the time Mr. Panetta ended it.
... sounds like ordinary James Bond type stuff. If Congress wants to micro-manage the CIA it ought to have some experts in intelligence & espionage in their oversight committee rather than politicians IMHO.
I tend to agree. My interest here is primarily the technology of tracking any news front. I do have some prurient interest in finding out what was so damned secret that Chaney though it necessary to bypass the law. Then too maybe the The National Security Act of 1947 needs to be updated to permit planning of covert operations without Congress's meddling eyes.
Seth says
Mark de LA says
~
<== newsfront in a tea pot!
<== newsfront in a tea pot!Source: ...
Congress originally authorized the CIA to develop the secret counterterrorism program that is now drawing fierce criticism from House Democrats who say they were kept in the dark all along, a former senior intelligence official told FOX News on Monday.
The program, which sources told FOX News was a plan to capture or kill Al Qaeda operatives, also never came close to being operational, the intelligence official said.
"This was not a program. It never began," the former official said. "The authority was given by Congress to develop this idea. ... There was no need to brief it. It wasn't a reality."
...one hand doesn't know what the other is doing in Congress? Some intelligence committees. Got the lefties juice flowing again, though.
Seth says
MR repeats that ...
MR repeats that ...
Unnamed sources tell foxnews say that
"This was not a program. It never began," the former official said. "The authority was given by Congress to develop this idea. ... There was no need to brief it. It wasn't a reality."
"This was not a program. It never began," the former official said. "The authority was given by Congress to develop this idea. ... There was no need to brief it. It wasn't a reality."
... but that contradicts the Christian Science Monitor which reports that ..
The
National Security Act of 1947 does require Congress to be briefed about
CIA operations. Section 501 states unequivocally that “the President
shall ensure that the congressional intelligence committees are kept
fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the
United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence
activity….”
Oh well, we really still don't know whether he was legally obligated to disclose that covert planning or not.
Mark de LA says
~ as usual there is a cartoon that crisps it up!
Seth says
I changed the about link on this news front item to go to the Google news front page. I noticed that along the right of that page they list the sequence of articles that ended up titling the front. That list forms the best sequential history of the evolution of the front. For the record, as of now, here is that list (oldest on top) ...
- Democrats Call for Probe Over Canceled CIA Program Never Reviewed ...
- Cheney 'ordered CIA to hide plan'
- What Was That Secret CIA Operation? Targeted Assassinations?
- Cheney ordered intel withheld from Congress-senator
- Liz Cheney refuses to discuss veep's role in CIA
- The CIA's kill teams were modeled on Israel's hit squads
- 'Secret' CIA Program Reported in 2002
Seth says
As far as i can tell, this is what has happend so far in this event front ...
- Panetta became aware of a covert project at CIA and canceled it.
- Panetta informed select members of congress that he had cancelled the project.
- Panetta told select members of congress that Congress had not been briefed on the matter under orders from VP Dick Cheney.
- Feinstein and other Democrats informed the public of #2-3 and called from an investigation.
- Multiple unnamed sources allegidily familure with the operation informed several news outlets that the covert project was to kill or capture Al-Qaeda operatives.
Mark de LA says
Frankly, considering why Pussy Hairs Can Pull Battleships has more consequences!
Also you might want to factor in why the tempest in a teapot was stirred up in the first place by considering the political context for it.
source: ... Protecting Pelosi, not America
Re-elected thanks to the Chicago machine, Schakowsky has rarely been held accountable for her views on foreign policy. But after her performance in Washington last week, more Americans will begin to ask why a politician who abuses classified information to pursue political vendettas should have access to it at all.
She and her colleagues tried to cover up for Pelosi's lies about waterboarding. Now they have distorted the truth about what the CIA director told them in a classified briefing about efforts to destroy Al-Qaeda.
Trembling with purported outrage, Schakowsky faced the cameras last week and declared: "I know that I've been lied to."
... you are into context, my man, get the whole picture.
Frankly, considering why Pussy Hairs Can Pull Battleships has more consequences!
Seth says
MR 2009-07-15 09:34:11 12225
Also you might want to factor in why the tempest in a teapot was stirred up in the first place by considering the political context for it.
source: ... Protecting Pelosi, not America
Re-elected thanks to the Chicago machine, Schakowsky has rarely been held accountable for her views on foreign policy. But after her performance in Washington last week, more Americans will begin to ask why a politician who abuses classified information to pursue political vendettas should have access to it at all.
She and her colleagues tried to cover up for Pelosi's lies about waterboarding. Now they have distorted the truth about what the CIA director told them in a classified briefing about efforts to destroy Al-Qaeda.
Trembling with purported outrage, Schakowsky faced the cameras last week and declared: "I know that I've been lied to."
...
Well, of course, the American Thinker "article" is an opinion piece, and not record of events. The event data base should only records events. All the Penetta as well as the Pelosi events should be recorded there. But what would not be recorded there would be the spin on those events, like Pollak's piece which you quoted from above. The relationship between events is always a subjective call and everybody sees those relationships from their own point of view. We can record those points of view in a database but these records need to be clearly delineated from the events themselves.
Seth says
MR 2009-07-15 11:34:46 12225
seth 2009-07-15 10:30:23 12225
-snip-
Well, of course, the American Thinker "article" is an opinion piece, and not record of events. The event data base should only records events. All the Penetta as well as the Pelosi events should be recorded there. But what would not be recorded there would be the spin on those events, like Pollak's piece which you quoted from above. The relationship between events is always a subjective call and everybody sees those relationships from their own point of view. We can record those points of view in a database but these records need to be clearly delineated from the events themselves.
A better question to ask is are there records which back up the points of view in this piece. The Pelosi accusing the CIA of lying is reported fact (newsfront several weeks ago). The various articles on Pelosi lying about her being briefed are facts. Panetta as a Clinton chief of staff are facts. The Pelosi-Panetta polarity on the CIA lying is fact. So how many of the facts do you want to ignore to say that these are not related to your current newsfront?
Well not exactly ...
- "The Pelosi accusing the CIA of lying is reported fact" [true]
- "The various articles on Pelosi lying about her being briefed are facts." [these articles are commentary. it is not an established fact that Pelosi lied]
- "Panetta as a Clinton chief of staff are facts", [yes it is a fact that he was Clinton's chief of staff]
- "The Pelosi-Panetta polarity on the CIA lying is fact." [i have no idea what event of fact that refers to]
Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-15 10:44:14 12225
... but i'm not quite sure what it means. Is it supposed to be a comment to defame women, just single out Pelosi, or is it a comment about Congress trying to run military operations? If the latter, then why not use the more generic "pubic hair" rather than the feminine "pussy hair"? How about: Congressional Pubic Hair can Pull Battleships ?
source: MR seems to want to get my attention with ...
Pussy Hairs Can Pull Battleships
Pussy Hairs Can Pull Battleships
Actually it is probably a play on what is said of Helen of Troy who it is reported had "the face that launched a thousand ships". The update to today's coarseness is not an unexpected upgrade. It refers mostly to the female component as the real & motivating factor driving men to fight some wars: Eleanor Roosevelt, Golda Meir, Cleopatra, maybe even Michelle Obama ....etc.
Mark de LA says
Bread & Circuses everyone!
Well there are many stories of Pelosi lying, whether you believe it or not is your stick. I tend to believe that she did. Just like the story that Panetta canceled the hit program has been superceeded by this story that Tenet did & it has been on & off since then with Panetta being the last in line. Probably the Predator drones have put the final nail in the coffin. This red-meat for the Democrat extreme left troops must be for some reason - perhaps a distraction from the trillions being spent in healthcare & energy boondoggles. With a lot of people on Summer vacation & Sotomayor confirmation hearings putting people to sleep some have again suggested that Alinsky's tactics in Rules for Radicals number 8 & 9 are being applied to overwhelm the system so that Obama & the leftists get what they want.
RULE 8: "Keep the pressure on. Never let up." Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. (Attack, attack, attack from all sides, never giving the reeling organization a chance to rest, regroup, recover and re-strategize.)
RULE 9: "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself." Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist. (Perception is reality. Large organizations always prepare a worst-case scenario, something that may be furthest from the activists' minds. The upshot is that the organization will expend enormous time and energy, creating in its own collective mind the direst of conclusions. The possibilities can easily poison the mind and result in demoralization.)
- in (Rule 9 everything is an immediate crisis on the people - healthcare & global warming) Bread & Circuses everyone!
Seth says
MR 2009-07-15 16:23:21 12225
Bread & Circuses everyone!
Well there are many stories of Pelosi lying, whether you believe it or not is your stick. I tend to believe that she did. Just like the story that Panetta canceled the hit program has been superceeded by this story that Tenet did & it has been on & off since then with Panetta being the last in line. Probably the Predator drones have put the final nail in the coffin. This red-meat for the Democrat extreme left troops must be for some reason - perhaps a distraction from the trillions being spent in healthcare & energy boondoggles. With a lot of people on Summer vacation & Sotomayor confirmation hearings putting people to sleep some have again suggested that Alinsky's tactics in Rules for Radicals number 8 & 9 are being applied to overwhelm the system so that Obama & the leftists get what they want.
RULE 8: "Keep the pressure on. Never let up." Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. (Attack, attack, attack from all sides, never giving the reeling organization a chance to rest, regroup, recover and re-strategize.)
RULE 9: "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself." Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist. (Perception is reality. Large organizations always prepare a worst-case scenario, something that may be furthest from the activists' minds. The upshot is that the organization will expend enormous time and energy, creating in its own collective mind the direst of conclusions. The possibilities can easily poison the mind and result in demoralization.)
- in (Rule 9 everything is an immediate crisis on the people - healthcare & global warming) Bread & Circuses everyone! Well i neither believe that Pelosi lied about that praticular thing, nor that she did not lie. I simply do not need to make a decision. However, i do believe that the CIA misleads Congress on a regular basis ... and that is more to the point, me thinks. Your conspiracy theory does hang together well that this recent Panetta disclosures which are the subject of this item are more political than strategic or legal and that they probably came up now because of the previous Pelosi front. That said, it is important to totally understand that we have no evidance of that connection ... so all of this speculation ends up just being rwg spin.
As to the Alinsky's Rules which keep comming up as if they mean something to me, i would like to observe that they describe your behavior almost better than they do mine.
As to the Alinsky's Rules which keep comming up as if they mean something to me, i would like to observe that they describe your behavior almost better than they do mine.
Mark de LA says
We have no evidence that the CIA lied. We have no evidence that Cheney did anything wrong. Congress seems to like to appoint special prosecutors to harass their opponents & whenever possible score political points. This case is no exception. The points to be investigated also are important. Left unexplained, the points I raised have a context which alters the event to be something purely political & not criminal, your sensational headlines about Cheney notwithstanding. You can put your head in the sand & ignore it or not. If you do, however, I suspect that truth is less important to you than whatever prompted you to make this item in the first place.
Seth says
Titling the news front today we find a better description of the allegid special ops project planning ....
source: current and former U.S.intelligence officials to LA Times
... The CIA spent seven years trying to assemble teams capable of killing the world's most wanted terrorists but could never find a formula that worked.
The struggles came during a period in which the agency had been given unprecedented authority and resources, and a cause -- responding to the Sept. 11 attacks -- with broad public support.
But officials could not solve daunting logistical problems, including how to get teams close to their targets while keeping U.S. involvement secret and being able to extract them safely if they succeeded in killing a terrorist.
In interviews, current and former U.S. intelligence officials said the aim of the effort was broader than has been described in newspaper accounts this week.
In particular, officials said, ambitions for the program expanded to include creating teams that were made up not only of CIA personnel but counterparts from other countries, presumably Pakistan; and to be capable not just of killing high-value targets but also executing raids and other operations to gather evidence and intelligence that might lead to elusive Al Qaeda leaders Osama bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri.
Former officials said support for the program persisted in recent years largely because it could compensate for a crucial shortcoming in the ongoing campaign of Predator strikes. The drones had emerged as a potent weapon against Al Qaeda in Pakistan but had failed to bring the agency closer to Bin Laden.
"The bottom line is that you've still got No. 1 and No. 2 out there," one former high-ranking U.S. intelligence official said. "If all you do is blow stuff up and burn stuff up, you never get information that could lead you to the prize."
As a result, CIA leaders continued to pursue the idea of elite paramilitary teams that could mount lethal operations on short notice but also quietly capture lower-ranking Al Qaeda members and raid sites struck by Predator missiles to gather any intelligence material left behind.
"If I can just get in there and get information off the ground, I might find one piece of information that's going to lead me to the prize," the former official said.
The broader dimensions of the program may account for why some lawmakers, particularly Republicans, have been critical of CIA Director Leon E. Panetta's decision last month to kill it.
... The CIA spent seven years trying to assemble teams capable of killing the world's most wanted terrorists but could never find a formula that worked.
The struggles came during a period in which the agency had been given unprecedented authority and resources, and a cause -- responding to the Sept. 11 attacks -- with broad public support.
But officials could not solve daunting logistical problems, including how to get teams close to their targets while keeping U.S. involvement secret and being able to extract them safely if they succeeded in killing a terrorist.
In interviews, current and former U.S. intelligence officials said the aim of the effort was broader than has been described in newspaper accounts this week.
In particular, officials said, ambitions for the program expanded to include creating teams that were made up not only of CIA personnel but counterparts from other countries, presumably Pakistan; and to be capable not just of killing high-value targets but also executing raids and other operations to gather evidence and intelligence that might lead to elusive Al Qaeda leaders Osama bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri.
Former officials said support for the program persisted in recent years largely because it could compensate for a crucial shortcoming in the ongoing campaign of Predator strikes. The drones had emerged as a potent weapon against Al Qaeda in Pakistan but had failed to bring the agency closer to Bin Laden.
"The bottom line is that you've still got No. 1 and No. 2 out there," one former high-ranking U.S. intelligence official said. "If all you do is blow stuff up and burn stuff up, you never get information that could lead you to the prize."
As a result, CIA leaders continued to pursue the idea of elite paramilitary teams that could mount lethal operations on short notice but also quietly capture lower-ranking Al Qaeda members and raid sites struck by Predator missiles to gather any intelligence material left behind.
"If I can just get in there and get information off the ground, I might find one piece of information that's going to lead me to the prize," the former official said.
The broader dimensions of the program may account for why some lawmakers, particularly Republicans, have been critical of CIA Director Leon E. Panetta's decision last month to kill it.
You should read the whole article for some extra details. My opinion is that Panetta should not have canceled the planning. We need this ability, but perhaps it *is* more Hollywood than practical. The focus is still on why Cheney didn't want Congress involved. Me thinks that is obvious. But, yes, it does go to Pelosi's assertion that the CIA lies to Congress on a regular basis. Doesn't Obama have some legislation in the works that would tend to weeken the pull of Congressional pussy hairs on intelligence operations?
Seth says
Well you would be wrong in your speculations about me as usual. My motives for starting this item are clear and were stated in the body of the item. I wanted to learn about the state of the art for tracking news fronts. This was more of an example of that rather than something that i felt deeply about.
As to including context when recording events: No, you do not mix speculations as to connections with actual records of events. However you do include all events. You could look at a news front as a retrieval from a database of events. All of Penetta's and Palosi's actual events will be in that retrieval. They are in that context. If you want to include meta data about other people's commentary, opinions, and speculations, you obviously can retrieve that from another database of commentary. This is just good sense data processing. There is nothing partisan in that whasoever. I wish you could at least acknowledge that.
MR 2009-07-15 17:22:00 12225
We have no evidence that the CIA lied. We have no evidence that Cheney did anything wrong. Congress seems to like to appoint special prosecutors to harass their opponents & whenever possible score political points. This case is no exception. The points to be investigated also are important. Left unexplained, the points I raised have a context which alters the event to be something purely political & not criminal, [irrelivant and untrue things about me snipped] ... I suspect that truth is less important to you than whatever prompted you to make this item in the first place.
Well you would be wrong in your speculations about me as usual. My motives for starting this item are clear and were stated in the body of the item. I wanted to learn about the state of the art for tracking news fronts. This was more of an example of that rather than something that i felt deeply about.
As to including context when recording events: No, you do not mix speculations as to connections with actual records of events. However you do include all events. You could look at a news front as a retrieval from a database of events. All of Penetta's and Palosi's actual events will be in that retrieval. They are in that context. If you want to include meta data about other people's commentary, opinions, and speculations, you obviously can retrieve that from another database of commentary. This is just good sense data processing. There is nothing partisan in that whasoever. I wish you could at least acknowledge that.
Mark de LA says
~ during the Bush years the left was the one that wanted to bash the CIA. They also worked to put the CIA under the thumbs of Congressional oversight committees. I think this cartoon explains why this newsfront is still around.
Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-16 09:43:31 12225
Well you would be wrong in your speculations about me as usual. My motives for starting this item are clear and were stated in the body of the item. I wanted to learn about the state of the art for tracking news fronts. This was more of an example of that rather than something that i felt deeply about.
As to including context when recording events: No, you do not mix speculations as to connections with actual records of events. However you do include all events. You could look at a news front as a retrieval from a database of events. All of Penetta's and Palosi's actual events will be in that retrieval. They are in that context. If you want to include meta data about other people's commentary, opinions, and speculations, you obviously can retrieve that from another database of commentary. This is just good sense data processing. There is nothing partisan in that whasoever. I wish you could at least acknowledge that.
MR 2009-07-15 17:22:00 12225
We have no evidence that the CIA lied. We have no evidence that Cheney did anything wrong. Congress seems to like to appoint special prosecutors to harass their opponents & whenever possible score political points. This case is no exception. The points to be investigated also are important. Left unexplained, the points I raised have a context which alters the event to be something purely political & not criminal, [irrelivant and untrue things about me snipped] ... I suspect that truth is less important to you than whatever prompted you to make this item in the first place.
Well you would be wrong in your speculations about me as usual. My motives for starting this item are clear and were stated in the body of the item. I wanted to learn about the state of the art for tracking news fronts. This was more of an example of that rather than something that i felt deeply about.
As to including context when recording events: No, you do not mix speculations as to connections with actual records of events. However you do include all events. You could look at a news front as a retrieval from a database of events. All of Penetta's and Palosi's actual events will be in that retrieval. They are in that context. If you want to include meta data about other people's commentary, opinions, and speculations, you obviously can retrieve that from another database of commentary. This is just good sense data processing. There is nothing partisan in that whasoever. I wish you could at least acknowledge that.
To use your often used phrase, you do cherry-pick which articles you would put in your database as fact & would leave out others that provide context. It is interesting that you chose a partisan news front to illustrate your non-partisan endeavor. I still like Heinlein's notion of a "fair witness" to bind facts to an event. (See - Stranger in a Strange Land for further fictional reference to the notion). Lacking such fair witnesses these days your database, if based on the M$M accounts, will contain less real facts than you can imagine.
Seth says
MR 2009-07-16 09:56:23 12225
seth 2009-07-16 09:43:31 12225
Well you would be wrong in your speculations about me as usual. My motives for starting this item are clear and were stated in the body of the item. I wanted to learn about the state of the art for tracking news fronts. This was more of an example of that rather than something that i felt deeply about.
As to including context when recording events: No, you do not mix speculations as to connections with actual records of events. However you do include all events. You could look at a news front as a retrieval from a database of events. All of Penetta's and Palosi's actual events will be in that retrieval. They are in that context. If you want to include meta data about other people's commentary, opinions, and speculations, you obviously can retrieve that from another database of commentary. This is just good sense data processing. There is nothing partisan in that whasoever. I wish you could at least acknowledge that.
MR 2009-07-15 17:22:00 12225
We have no evidence that the CIA lied. We have no evidence that Cheney did anything wrong. Congress seems to like to appoint special prosecutors to harass their opponents & whenever possible score political points. This case is no exception. The points to be investigated also are important. Left unexplained, the points I raised have a context which alters the event to be something purely political & not criminal, [irrelivant and untrue things about me snipped] ... I suspect that truth is less important to you than whatever prompted you to make this item in the first place.
Well you would be wrong in your speculations about me as usual. My motives for starting this item are clear and were stated in the body of the item. I wanted to learn about the state of the art for tracking news fronts. This was more of an example of that rather than something that i felt deeply about.
As to including context when recording events: No, you do not mix speculations as to connections with actual records of events. However you do include all events. You could look at a news front as a retrieval from a database of events. All of Penetta's and Palosi's actual events will be in that retrieval. They are in that context. If you want to include meta data about other people's commentary, opinions, and speculations, you obviously can retrieve that from another database of commentary. This is just good sense data processing. There is nothing partisan in that whasoever. I wish you could at least acknowledge that.
To use your often used phrase, you do cherry-pick which articles you would put in your database as fact & would leave out others that provide context. It is interesting that you chose a partisan news front to illustrate your non-partisan endeavor. I still like Heinlein's notion of a "fair witness" to bind facts to an event. (See - Stranger in a Strange Land for further fictional reference to the notion). Lacking such fair witnesses these days your database, if based on the M$M accounts, will contain less real facts than you can imagine.
Well, if it ever happens that this event database gets going, then it would have many contributors from many points of view. If you ever really want to actually do something, you and i could hash out what some events would look like ... that way you could see that it is the group of people contributing the database that guarantees that it is unbiased. Any one person could not achieve that. Look at all the dialog over at Wikipedia about creating a encyclopedia that is unbiased. I think they ended up with a pretty good result.
You still didn't acknowledge my point about context and how it did (or didn't) address your complaint about what to include in context. You seem to just insist that this is about my partisan intentions; but Mark, that is the most uninteresting aspect of this whole item - not to mention that is absolutely untrue. Fact is, and i already said this today, having a CIA hit team might be a good idea, though it might not be feasible. I believe that the CIA should not be micromanaged and lead around by pussy hairs from Congress. The other perspective on this is that we are a country that follows the rule of law. That's the way i like it. If the intelligence agencies are required by law to disclose operations and planning, then the should do so. Breaking the law moves us in a direction that we do not want to go. This is an interesting news front with a lot of things to consider. I think i picked an excellent example to work on.
You still didn't acknowledge my point about context and how it did (or didn't) address your complaint about what to include in context. You seem to just insist that this is about my partisan intentions; but Mark, that is the most uninteresting aspect of this whole item - not to mention that is absolutely untrue. Fact is, and i already said this today, having a CIA hit team might be a good idea, though it might not be feasible. I believe that the CIA should not be micromanaged and lead around by pussy hairs from Congress. The other perspective on this is that we are a country that follows the rule of law. That's the way i like it. If the intelligence agencies are required by law to disclose operations and planning, then the should do so. Breaking the law moves us in a direction that we do not want to go. This is an interesting news front with a lot of things to consider. I think i picked an excellent example to work on.
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