The Elephant in the room with Seth in it

About: Seth [item 12025]

Be careful, Seth, when you disturb the elephant in the room where you are!
The fact is, like so many other things in politics, a supreme court nominating hearing is a drama played out for the public & the Senate; previously choreographed by years of lobbyists & coaches & practice sessions to a specific outcome.  She may likely get appointed for life. She may vote entirely differently from her statements before the Senate.  She may disappoint the president who nominated her (or not)! Judge Suitor switched sides & some others seem to be on different ideological sides in their rulings from previous decisions.

Tags

  1. seth
  2. sotomayor
  3. scotus
  4. elephant shit
  5. item 12025
  6. elephant in the room
  7. judges biases

Comments


Seth says
Well, you know my elephant in the room is not really about Sotomayor. 
source: Seth in comments on 12025
More interesting would be to talk about the elephant in the room.  Judges are supposed to make unbiased decisions based solely on the law.  Yes they are supposed to do that.  Yet that is impossible and never does happen.  Look at Roberts record ... the dockets are replete with examples of judges consistently making rulings based upon their biases.  Sotomayor has been the first justice that i know of who has even broached that subject in her writings - though now, of course, she cannot articulate it.  Is the law a living thing which gets interperted by each generation according to the experiences of that generation?  Or is it a fixed thing entoomed in one dimensional words which should be applied mechanically by some automaton? 
Like i hinted at, it would be ridiculous for Sotomayor to articulate that now.  But I can.  Please try to understand it for what it is, and not twist it to become something it is not.

Mark de LA says
Frankly I would rather meditate on the meaning of this phrase: (Rescue Me)

Pussy hairs can pull a  battleship
rather than your pink elephant. Maybe Sotomayor will demonstrate how!

Seth says
MR 2009-07-14 15:18:44 12247
You continue to belong under the pile! Not everyone is biased. Not everyone is a racist, even by my standard 714.  If you want to think so then you are pandering to the worst elements of mankind.
I don't remember saying "everyone is biases".  But everybody comes to a situation with a particular point of view that is dictated by their background and experiences.  Because of that, different facts, and words in the law, will show up as important.  Some judges pick and choose which facts and which laws are important based upon their background.  One could call those judges biased and they could be excluded for that reason.  However, some do avoid that. Sotomyor claims to be such a judge.  I think her record does bear out that finding as has come out in the hearing.  The elephant, however, is that judges must see the facts and the law through the filter of their experience and background.  They must choose which things are important and which words of the law apply.  They are not automotons, they are humans. Their backgrounds and experiences will affect their judgements.  Giving lip service to an ideal in which that is not the case is to live in a never never land.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-14 15:49:46 12247
MR 2009-07-14 15:18:44 12247
You continue to belong under the pile! [actual content addressed elsewhere snipped] If you want to think so then you are [... yada yada yada sbuooed...]
Why is it necessary for you to include a subtext in your comments that is demeaning and insulting to me personally?  What is your intent in doing that?
     It goes to the context you provided by an elephant in the room & my picture, of course. You have your own ways of insulting.
     A scientist must use the scientific method. A mathematician must use the laws of proof & a logician the rules logic. A judge must use the rules of blind justice, i.e. what is written in the law.  In the latter case there are appellate & supreme courts to enforce the process. One learns to set aside prejudices & biases for the greater good.  If you can't then you probably don't belong in one of those professions.  Please don't stereotype everyone else with your own limitations or some political theory of moral relativity.


Seth says
MR 2009-07-15 07:47:10 12247
seth 2009-07-15 07:36:03 12247
MR 2009-07-14 16:06:32 12247
seth 2009-07-14 15:49:46 12247
MR 2009-07-14 15:18:44 12247
You continue to belong under the pile! [actual content addressed elsewhere snipped] If you want to think so then you are [... yada yada yada sbuooed...]
Why is it necessary for you to include a subtext in your comments that is demeaning and insulting to me personally?  What is your intent in doing that?
     It goes to the context you provided by an elephant in the room & my picture, of course. You have your own ways of insulting.
Well as a personal favor can i ask you to please de-escalate your personal insults?
Show by example! Address the substance rather than ad hominem bullshit about the messengers or participants!

Well yes i have been trying and i think i have been doing a pretty good job.  Sometimes the content is about the messengers and the participants - in those cases it is certainly permitted to talk about them.  Perhaps i can do better by clearly distinguishing between when i am talking about a messenger or a participant, rather than the events of an issue. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-15 07:36:03 12247
MR 2009-07-14 16:06:32 12247
seth 2009-07-14 15:49:46 12247
MR 2009-07-14 15:18:44 12247
You continue to belong under the pile! [actual content addressed elsewhere snipped] If you want to think so then you are [... yada yada yada sbuooed...]
Why is it necessary for you to include a subtext in your comments that is demeaning and insulting to me personally?  What is your intent in doing that?
     It goes to the context you provided by an elephant in the room & my picture, of course. You have your own ways of insulting.
Well as a personal favor can i ask you to please de-escalate your personal insults?
Show by example! Address the substance rather than ad hominem bullshit about the messengers or participants!


Seth says
MR 2009-07-14 16:06:32 12247 
     A scientist must use the scientific method. A mathematician must use the laws of proof & a logician the rules logic. A judge must use the rules of blind justice, i.e. what is written in the law.  In the latter case there are appellate & supreme courts to enforce the process. One learns to set aside prejudices & biases for the greater good.  If you can't then you probably don't belong in one of those professions.  [things about me snipped]

Yes i understand that and it has been emphasized lately during the Sotomayor confirmation hearings and can now be considered part of common knowledge.  I have no complaint with that and i agree with it fully.  However, and here is the elephant in the room, it is an ideal.  The question I raise is how close to that ideal does the state of judging actually come?   Certainly it depends on the jurisdiction.  So let's take the Supreme Court as an example ... and for a moment forget about race and gender bias ... consider political bias.  How often do the 5 conservitive judges side with conservitive values on their rulings, and visa vie the 4 liberal judges?  How often has the chief justice Roberts sided with his side of the fense, ruling against the other side?  Does that not, in and of itself, prove that bias is more the rule than the exception when it comes to Superio Court rulings?  In other words,  yes, all judges are suppose to rule exactly according to the law and facts of the case and bring nothing else to the table ... but in fact they always bring their beliefs and biases to the table, and they almost always rule accordingly.  That is the elephant in the room.

Mark de LA says
There have been studies.  I don't care to chase them. You should probably do that since it is your distinction.  I don't see anything fruitful coming out of it. Obama can pack the court but still end up being surprised. Once a SCOTUS justice gets a lifetime appointment he/she/it owes no allegiance to the president who appointed, nor the Senators who confirmed & in a practical sense nothing else except the law & traditions of the legal profession & of course the Constitution of the US.


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