Co-op or COOPs ?


P.S.
'Government is like a baby: An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.' - Ronald Reagan

Tags

  1. obamacare
  2. public option
  3. co-ops

Comments


Seth says
Yep, and here is another cartoon spreading the same lie.  Apparently the anti health care reform lobby wants progressives to believe that Obama is abandoing them, when he is not. 



Seth says
... and her's an actual funny one .  Using the fine print in medical advertisements is becomming quite a source of mirth.   (20 seconds to the point of being ready to upload)



Seth says
Here is a funny one too ... even though its on the wrong side ...



Seth says
source: MR above
When you start calling cartoons lies I begin to search for the delete button.
Deleting it doesn't make it go away.  The point is that Obama is not throwing away the public option.  If that is true, then the cartoon is false.  Obama has been very consistent in supporting the public option.  But he has always said: if another plan meets the same goals, then he will consider it. 

That said, perhaps there was a feint to the middle which was countered by a drive from the left with the right cheering the confusion.  Draw a cartoon of that, and it will not tell a lie.  But to me media/blog commentary at that meta level of the fight is just a waste of time.  It's meaningless.  inevitably it will come down to Congressional votes.  Me, i also support the public option but realize that the goals can be met with other means.  That is a reasonable stance.  I'm not confused by conservative's 75-year-old "socialized medicine" smear against health care reform.  I don't think Congress is confused by it either. It would be more convincing if conservatives started dealing with the real problems rather than repeating propaganda phrases.  But i do wonder: if when all the chips are down in September, will Obama fight tooth and nail to reform this errant industry ... or not? 

Looks like this fight is defining his presidency.

Mark de LA says
I guess you are unaware that Kathleen Sebelius , Obama's Secretary of HHS, started a furor about the public option not being essential.  She later recanted & nuanced her statements which only goes to the pressure the left put on Obama & he put on her.
the YouTube is here:

It is another proof that Obama doesn't have a plan or that his administration is not aware of it.

Mark de LA says
Moreover: Fighting false health care claims, Obama repeats one of his own
source: ...

He said the first thing he wanted to correct was the idea that the proposed overhaul would force some people into different health care plans. "If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan," he said, repeating one of his stock lines.

That's not true, however, according to FactCheck.org, an independent truth squad run by the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania

...My question, having tried to find answers in the bill is how do you know whether something is or is not in the bill.  To say that abortion is not in it without it saying so explicitly is just a shell game because someone can add it later or some bureaucrat will put it in some procedure somewhere. The bill is garbled.


Mark de LA says
seth 2009-08-20 05:09:12 12419
You're catching up, keep watching you're up to Tuesday.  If you want to correctly guess what I'm aware of you might first try reading what i write: "That said, perhaps there was a feint to the middle which was countered by a drive from the left with the right cheering the confusion".  There is not a scintilla of doubt that the public option is in Obama's plan. The only question is whether the opposition will be successful in taking it out of the plan. 
.'. therefore your calling the original cartoon a lie is a lie!

Mark de LA says
Well apparently the abortion lie of Obama is covered with smoke & mirrors & bookkeeping bullshit. See is article: Obama Bears False Witness, Saying Abortion Coverage in Health Bill is a "Fabrication"
source: ...

In fact, the Capps Amendment passed by the House Energy and Commerce committee would require the establishment of at least one plan covering elective abortions in every federally-subsidized exchange, and it gives the HHS Secretary the authority to include abortion coverage in the public plan and requires that the public plan cover abortion if the Hyde amendment (which bans funding of abortions through Medicaid) is repealed.

Supporters of the Capps Amendment argue that in theory the amendment would require an abortionist to be paid out of the premiums contributed by the individual (not with the federal subsidies). So, say, an individual contributes $500 to purchase an insurance policy, and the federal government provides that individual with $3,000 in taxpayer-subsidies. When the bill comes due from the abortionist, he will theoretically be paid out of the $500 contributed by the individual.*


 
...is this in Obama's plan or not?

Seth says
MR 2009-08-20 06:02:06 12419
seth 2009-08-20 05:09:12 12419
You're catching up, keep watching you're up to Tuesday.  If you want to correctly guess what I'm aware of you might first try reading what i write: "That said, perhaps there was a feint to the middle which was countered by a drive from the left with the right cheering the confusion".  There is not a scintilla of doubt that the public option is in Obama's plan. The only question is whether the opposition will be successful in taking it out of the plan. 
.'. therefore your calling the original cartoon a lie is a lie!
Well i can see how a creative meta spinner would want to parse it that way.  But the fact is, like I just said, "there is not a scintilla of doubt that the public option is in Obama's plan", hence any cartoon which illustrates the opposite is a lie.  That being said, (here we go again), there must have been something behind all those reports and what Sebelius originally said having been asked about what Obama said.  I call that a "feint to the middle" ... it's the politics of working it out ... of finding out what is possible.  This cartoon, then represents the "drive from the left", and you are the right cheering the confusion.   I certainly can understand how a conservative would be uncomfortable with such an analysis as it does requires actually accepting the dynamics of change. 

That being said,  passing a do nothing watered down bill would be a disaster for Obama.  You guys would be crowing all the way to the bank to cash your checks from the insurance companies.  Me, i'll just repeat my own sentiments ...
source:  Seth above
But i do wonder: if when all the chips are down in September, will Obama fight tooth and nail to reform this errant industry ... or not?  Looks like this fight is defining his presidency.
I mean at some point maybe Obama will actually threaten a veto.  That is the only real power he has.

Whew, talk about meta meta awareness.

Seth says
MR 2009-08-20 06:40:18 12419
Well apparently the abortion lie of Obama is covered with smoke & mirrors & bookkeeping bullshit. See is article: Obama Bears False Witness, Saying Abortion Coverage in Health Bill is a "Fabrication"
source: ...

In fact, the Capps Amendment passed by the House Energy and Commerce committee would require the establishment of at least one plan covering elective abortions in every federally-subsidized exchange, and it gives the HHS Secretary the authority to include abortion coverage in the public plan and requires that the public plan cover abortion if the Hyde amendment (which bans funding of abortions through Medicaid) is repealed.

Supporters of the Capps Amendment argue that in theory the amendment would require an abortionist to be paid out of the premiums contributed by the individual (not with the federal subsidies). So, say, an individual contributes $500 to purchase an insurance policy, and the federal government provides that individual with $3,000 in taxpayer-subsidies. When the bill comes due from the abortionist, he will theoretically be paid out of the $500 contributed by the individual.*


 
...is this in Obama's plan or not?
You can buy private insurance which pays for abortion.  It is tricky to write a law which will provide for tax payer subsidies and not take away the choices which people already have with private insurance.  My take on it is that the lawmakers are making an honest attempt to exclude tax payers from paying for abortion is all cases.  I don't know if they have gotten it right yet or not and don't have the stomach to go meta on it with you yet.

Seth says
seth 2009-08-20 11:37:46 12419
MR 2009-08-20 11:07:27 12419
seth 2009-08-20 09:27:51 12419
More background of what prompted the "feint to the middle"  ...
source: Republican Senator Charles Grassley
"I told the president then that he needed to make public whether or not he could sign a bill that didn't have a public option in it, ... He didn't have to take a position against a public option, but would he sign a bill that wouldn't have a public option in it, and I thought a statement from him would be very helpful."
... which is pretty much what happened.
What happened was Sebelius flew up a trial baloon & the left-wing of the left-wing party shot it down making Obama pull the rug from underneath Sebelius. Grassley is just padding his part.
Well perhaps Grassley is padding his part as some WH spokesmen have speculated.  In any case the republicans are out of it and i doubt that the administration is even bothering to pander to them for votes.  The fight now is with the blue dog democrats. The current question is whether to split the bill and bypass republicans by using reconciliation ... woops too bad i can't point to my tagged bookmarks.
...  well  actually i can point to my tagged bookmarks, prob is that you cant see them.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-08-20 09:27:51 12419
More background of what prompted the "feint to the middle"  ...
source: Republican Senator Charles Grassley
"I told the president then that he needed to make public whether or not he could sign a bill that didn't have a public option in it, ... He didn't have to take a position against a public option, but would he sign a bill that wouldn't have a public option in it, and I thought a statement from him would be very helpful."
... which is pretty much what happened.
What happened was Sebelius flew up a trial baloon & the left-wing of the left-wing party shot it down making Obama pull the rug from underneath Sebelius. Grassley is just padding his part.

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