Weighing Health Care Proposals
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Tags
- obamacare
- sethcare
- item 12267
- item 12448
- health care
Comments
- The question to be answered is: What are the essential elements of the current progressive reform of health care and how are they supposed to accomplish their goal? The point of answering that question is to discover what the plan is of its own right - what it proposes to do and how it proposes to do that; but not to criticize it. We can criticize it, or look at alternatives, only when we can understand what it is.
- The rules of conduct should be to write only true sentences which further the purpose of answering the question and contain none of the known fallacies.

Unfortunately you have not agreed to any rules of conduct - you need to do that in writing or i'm not going to spend much time here.
That said, off the top of my head, sans research, my understanding of the administration's plan for health care reform is below. Bear in mind this is not necessarily what the administrations plan actually is - for that we need research. Nor is it any of the 4 different plans cumming (or not) out of the congressional committees - for that we need research. Nor is it my plan - for that I would need much more research. And, yes, i would vote for the plan below assuming that the research that i noted was done.
- Leave alone those things that are working.
- Establish a "exchange" where individuals and businesses can choose an affordable private insurance policy where:
- you cannot be excluded because of preexisting conditions
- you cannot be canceled if your pay your premiums
- Put in the exchange an option of an insurance company administered by the government without profit. That public option would be restricted to paying claims out of premiums and not out of tax payer money.
- Establish a counsel of experts which would establish rules for payment of claims based upon a scientific study of what health care works best. These rules would be implemented if Congress did not override them. It is unclear to me what relationship this would have to 1, 2, 3, and medicare - that needs to be researched.
- Eliminate known inefficiencies in the delivery of health care. I'm not quite sure what is covered by these inefficiencies; but a couple come to mind:
- eliminate Medicare Advantage
- improve automated medical records
- eliminate redundant or unnecessary tests (research defensive medicine)
- skew what is paid for to include more for prevention
- skew what is paid for to be not so much for procedures done, but rather for health delivered
- skew what is paid for to encourage more primary care not so much specialty
- Mandate that businesses (and possibly individuals) must have health care policies. These
mandates make the pool of covered individuals much larger making it
possible to eliminate the cancellations and exclusions of the current system.
- Provide subsidies for people who cannot afford the premiums. It
is unclear to me whether the monies for the subsidies would come from
premiums collected from the larger pool or whether they would come from
tax payer monies.


If you actually do "want a discussion" then reread my first comment on this item. Note that the question i mentioned there was a proposal to be negotiated. We need to form a common purpose or any discussion will just go back and forth with nothing learned. There needs to be some question that we both actually want to know the answer to. If your purpose here is to "weigh Obama's health care turd", then obviously that is not a purpose that i want anything to do with. I proposed one inquiry above which does interest me and did match your initial request: "Seth to provide 7 points that he believes are in Obama's health care reform". I provided that, in a cooperative spirit, based upon your request. I've already told you (please believe me) that i don't have my own plan - it doesn't make any sense for me, with my little knowledge of the health care monstrosity, to come up with a plan. I elected Obama to come up with a plan - so i'm going with his. If you want to compare your plan to something, then it should be to the liberal plan that is before congress now. But if that no longer interests you, propose another question about reform which we both want to know the true answer to.
If you actually do want a reasonable discussion with me, then it is a requirement that we agree upon a set of rules. Note these are not "my rules" but rather ones that we both agree to adhere to. I though that eliminating writing known fallacies was the simplest kind of rubic that would work; but i'm open to considering anything else that would keep us out of the normal rwg that we always get into, and tend to focus the discussion. I don't think it is the structure of the dialogue that is the problem, but rather the behavior and intentions behind the behavior that is giving us the problem.
If there is no intention to cooperate, then do not expect cooperation. I've responded again in a spirit of cooperation in the hope that my brother can cooperate with me to find some truth. It's up to you now.







If you actually do "want a discussion" then reread my first comment on this item. Note that the question i mentioned there was a proposal to be negotiated. We need to form a common purpose or any discussion will just go back and forth with nothing learned. There needs to be some question that we both actually want to know the answer to. If your purpose here is to "weigh Obama's health care turd", then obviously that is not a purpose that i want anything to do with. I proposed one inquiry above which does interest me and did match your initial request: "Seth to provide 7 points that he believes are in Obama's health care reform". I provided that, in a cooperative spirit, based upon your request. I've already told you (please believe me) that i don't have my own plan - it doesn't make any sense for me, with my little knowledge of the health care monstrosity, to come up with a plan. I elected Obama to come up with a plan - so i'm going with his. If you want to compare your plan to something, then it should be to the liberal plan that is before congress now. But if that no longer interests you, propose another question about reform which we both want to know the true answer to.
If you actually do want a reasonable discussion with me, then it is a requirement that we agree upon a set of rules. Note these are not "my rules" but rather ones that we both agree to adhere to. I though that eliminating writing known fallacies was the simplest kind of rubic that would work; but i'm open to considering anything else that would keep us out of the normal rwg that we always get into, and tend to focus the discussion. I don't think it is the structure of the dialogue that is the problem, but rather the behavior and intentions behind the behavior that is giving us the problem.
If there is no intention to cooperate, then do not expect cooperation. I've responded again in a spirit of cooperation in the hope that my brother can cooperate with me to find some truth. It's up to you now.







Though officials would not provide the numbers Obama plans to use, they say that the goal is to give his side -- Democrats -- a true presidential plan that they can sell. That includes the rebranding of several consensus initiatives, like the insurance reforms, as his own. The effect of this sales job, if it works, will be to associate the president with parts of the reform bills that are almost certainly likely to pass -- assuming the Senate doesn't bog down.
So, Obama sat back while most of the substantive legislative wrangling happened, spouted platitudes from the bully pulpit while a skeptical public imposed its will on his massive majorities, lost his chance at an abbreviated debate and an August vote, and went on vacation when things really got rough only to descend from the Martha's Vineyard Mountain with tablets inscribed with the more reasonable consensus ideas Congress has been forced to consider since his own ambitious vision tanked so spectacularly.
Stand back, look cool, don't get too involved, wait for things to shake out, adopt eventual consensus as his own idea, claim victory. Yeah, nobody saw this coming, unless of course they had paid attention to his entire career.

You are a very paranoid man
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