A Healh Care Reform from the Senate Finance Comittee

About: Full text of Baucus bill prior to markup


Tags

  1. health care
  2. baucus bill
  3. keep on topic

Comments


Mark de LA says
I guess this is not the Obama health plan either. Will Obama float one that has his complete blessing or not? Baucus has no public option.  It reminds me of some of my predictions. It would be nice if a cross text comparison could be made of this and HR3200. I'm too lazy to do it right now.

Seth says
MR 2009-09-16 11:17:08 12604
I guess this is not the Obama health plan either. Will Obama float one that has his complete blessing or not? Baucus has no public option.  It reminds me of some of my predictions. It would be nice if a cross text comparison could be made of this and HR3200. I'm too lazy to do it right now.
Not many, on either side of the aisle, are happy with this bill.   I hope that Obama does submit his own bill. 

You know we could make a comparison ourselves of the features in the various bills before us. You don't need to do it all yourself.  I would help.  It might look something like this quick off the cuff table.  We could do it in a open group like group politics so that both of us could update it.  We can keep adding features in the columns and bills in the rows.

   Public Option
 Co Ops
             
 HR3200
 yes  no              
 Baucus Bill  no  yes              
 Kennedy's bill (?)
 yes  no              
 Obama plan (?)
                 
                   



Mark de LA says
Yep I like the idea in concept. I'm not likely to do my homework on a 1000+ page bill.  I have posted before that finding an answer in the bills  is still controversial. Can you keep your current insurance? is an example.  That's why a lot of protesters are unhappy & mistrust government.

Seth says
MR 2009-09-16 12:38:56 12604
Yep I like the idea in concept. I'm not likely to do my homework on a 1000+ page bill.  I have posted before that finding an answer in the bills  is still controversial. Can you keep your current insurance? is an example.  That's why a lot of protesters are unhappy & mistrust government.
Ok, when i get a , i'll go start it in group politics.  I think the axes should be rotated and run the features in rows and the alternate proposals in the columns.

The Baucus bill to markup is only about 150 pages, and it looks like it would read real fast.  On the bills that have already been marked up and are much larger you probably need to rely on summaries and analysis and just cross check those to the bill itself. 

I think if your questions are less ambiguous they will be more easily researched in the bill.  For example, if you ask "Can you keep your current insurance?", well that is right there in the text of the Obama Plan (not yet a bill).  But it begs the question of whether down the road a bit "your current insurance" will be even offered you.  Those kind of unintended consequences are not ever going to be in the text of a bill.  For those you need a good analysis.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-09-17 09:01:19 12604
MR 2009-09-17 07:38:21 12604
I am mostly interested in the generic solution to knowing exactly what Congress is doing in their legislation.  I want simpler bills.  I want to disallow pork. I want balanced budgets. But most of all I want transparency that can be analyzed by computer & published on the Internet.  One tool for the money side of the equation is hierarchical hypertext-expandable pie/bar graphs.  Another is disallowing nested bills.  Congress is being paid well they shouyld be required to do the work of making the laws transparent.  For those of us who are watching & conscious this is an exciting time.  This is also a perilous time with trillion$$ budgets & deficits. It is perilous this time because the M$M doesn't do their job unbiassed.
Apparently you'd rather crao bs, than actually study anything. 
Your misspelling nullifies your communication. I am being honest with my communication. The government is not. I have expressed same other places on fbi in particular within the group UnhackTheBrain.  I also know what is a futile waste of time. All we are likely to end up with is ~ dozen talking points in a matrix which won't actually represent the bill but will only represent the analysis of yours & my partisan viewpoints.
P.S. I didn't say I would not participate. Understand that my motivation is above. Maybe a practice on something real will help;  maybe not.

Seth says
MR 2009-09-17 07:38:21 12604
I am mostly interested in the generic solution to knowing exactly what Congress is doing in their legislation.  I want simpler bills.  I want to disallow pork. I want balanced budgets. But most of all I want transparency that can be analyzed by computer & published on the Internet.  One tool for the money side of the equation is hierarchical hypertext-expandable pie/bar graphs.  Another is disallowing nested bills.  Congress is being paid well they shouyld be required to do the work of making the laws transparent.  For those of us who are watching & conscious this is an exciting time.  This is also a perilous time with trillion$$ budgets & deficits. It is perilous this time because the M$M doesn't do their job unbiassed.
Apparently you'd rather crao bs, than actually study anything. 

Seth says
MR 2009-09-17 13:13:34 12604
seth 2009-09-17 09:01:19 12604
MR 2009-09-17 07:38:21 12604
I am mostly interested in the generic solution to knowing exactly what Congress is doing in their legislation.  I want simpler bills.  I want to disallow pork. I want balanced budgets. But most of all I want transparency that can be analyzed by computer & published on the Internet.  One tool for the money side of the equation is hierarchical hypertext-expandable pie/bar graphs.  Another is disallowing nested bills.  Congress is being paid well they shouyld be required to do the work of making the laws transparent.  For those of us who are watching & conscious this is an exciting time.  This is also a perilous time with trillion$$ budgets & deficits. It is perilous this time because the M$M doesn't do their job unbiassed.
Apparently you'd rather crao bs, than actually study anything. 
Your misspelling nullifies your communication. I am being honest with my communication. The government is not. I have expressed same other places on fbi in particular within the group UnhackTheBrain.  I also know what is a futile waste of time. All we are likely to end up with is ~ dozen talking points in a matrix which won't actually represent the bill but will only represent the analysis of yours & my partisan viewpoints.
P.S. I didn't say I would not participate. Understand that my motivation is above. Maybe a practice on something real will help;  maybe not.
My motivation is an increase in awareness.  I'm glad you might contribute.

Mark de LA says
MR 2009-09-19 10:47:44 12604
In view of p 161 ssq. what do you suppose is going on & what is it's practical application? This is where things like patient counseling for end of life & rationing might evolve.  I am studying it for what it says & does not say.   

SUBTITLE F��"PATIENT-CENTERED OUTCOMES RESEARCH




Mark de LA says
Perhaps you should put a line in the matrix on whether failure to acquire mandatory insurance can lead to fines &/or prison.

I'm still trying to find an official bill with Baucus' name on it in govtrack, but here is an article that shows a matrix like what you were looking for in the WSJ.

Mark de LA says
Apparently this is where all the activity is taking place in the Senate Finance Committee on the Baucus "Bill". This is the track where the moving target moves.


Seth says
MR 2009-09-26 13:34:45 12604
Perhaps you should put a line in the matrix on whether failure to acquire mandatory insurance can lead to fines &/or prison.

I'm still trying to find an official bill with Baucus' name on it in govtrack, but here is an article that shows a matrix like what you were looking for in the WSJ.
If everybody is suppose to have insurance, then there needs to be a penalty if somebody shirks their responsibility.  If you drive and get in an accident, there are severe penalties that are imposed which vary from state to state.  I agree, there should be a line in the matrix that reads something like:  penalties for no insurance.

The Baucus bill is being marked up now, meaning that they are adding amendments.  This is where it goes from the 150 pages to thousands of pages.  I doubt that it will show up anywhere until the Senate Finance committee passes it along to conference and maybe not even then. 

Anybody can start the matrix happening.  Right now i'm dealing with hard disk crashes, and the recording of the next catalog.  Don't wait for me.

Mark de LA says
Seth (above): ... If everybody is suppose to have insurance, then there needs to be a penalty if somebody shirks their responsibility. 
... Yep, that is an unconstitutional flaw. What's next, mandatory life insurance?  How about mandatory unemployment insurance for everyone? How about mandatory income insurance? How about mandatory abortion insurance for everyone - spreading the cost from just potential mothers to potential fathers as well to insure that the population doesn't get out of hand ?  I want my mandatory 100 inch flat screen TV insurance with government assistance because I probably wouldn't be able to purchase the insurance at the cost I want.  The circus is in town, send in more clowns.

P.S. Driving is a privilege granted & licensed by the state - there are alternatives.  Living is not a privilege granted or licensed by the federal government - there is a difference but, not much of an alternative.


Seth says
MR 2009-09-26 14:34:03 12604
Seth (above): ... If everybody is suppose to have insurance, then there needs to be a penalty if somebody shirks their responsibility. 
... Yep, that is an unconstitutional flaw. What's next, mandatory life insurance?  How about mandatory unemployment insurance for everyone? How about mandatory income insurance? How about mandatory abortion insurance for everyone - spreading the cost from just potential mothers to potential fathers as well to insure that the population doesn't get out of hand ?  I want my mandatory 100 inch flat screen TV insurance with government assistance because I probably wouldn't be able to purchase the insurance at the cost I want.  The circus is in town, send in more clowns.

P.S. Driving is a privilege granted & licensed by the state - there are alternatives.  Living is not a privilege granted or licensed by the federal government - there is a difference but, not much of an alternative.

If you don't have a large pool of members, you don't have the leverage to cover pre-existing conditions.  How can you get a large enough pool without having some consequences for not joining it?

Mark de LA says
I did explain that your premise below is flawed:
source: ... So if you want to continue this thread, then answer the question: If you don't have a large pool of members, you don't have the leverage to cover pre-existing conditions.  How can you get a large enough pool without having some consequences for not joining it?
... it is wrong in so many ways.  There is no incentive to remain healthy except personal well being which apparently is not enough for smokers, eaters junk food, IV junkies, alcoholics & the like. For someone that is healthy & young you are creating a tax/penalty to pay others' health care costs is a burden, a tax. It is appropriate to red line some conditions like smoking or IV drug use. Pre-existing conditions is another which is bizarre. It is like saying I have cancer with an expected lifetime cost of 100,000 but you should all get together & pay that cost + the added bureaucracy of spreading around to everyone else.  The answer to your question is you can't.  You can't even do it by spreading it around because eventually you will have to raise insurance rates for everyone. If you do nothing about improving the supply of medical facilities & health care workers you will do nothing to reduce costs you will just be spreading them around. Social Security was announced as completely broke the other day which also means that Medicare is not far behind. That means that taxes have to be raised or benefits reduced.

 

Mark de LA says
Apparently some others think it is unconstitutional to require all people to carry health care insurance.
FoxNews: ... What’s unique about here is the mandate imposed on individuals merely because they live," he said. "Not connected with any economic activity, not because they grow something, make something, compose something. Merely because they live. And this is absolutely unprecedented."
...strangely similar to my own argument

Seth says
I don't have much time to devote to this while I'm recording the catalog; but there is new info here.  Markup on the Baucus bill has been completed and the bill will probably emerge from committee next week and go to the floor of the senate.  Notable in the amendments that passed was the following ...
source: NYT
In its grueling final hours, the committee voted Thursday to soften the impact of financial penalties that would be imposed on people who did not obtain insurance under the legislation. It also voted to modify a proposed tax on high-cost health insurance policies, so that fewer people would be affected.
...
By a vote of 22 to 1, the committee adopted an amendment delaying and reducing that penalty. The maximum penalty for a family would start at $200 in 2014 and rise to $800 in 2017.
...
The amendment would also eliminate the possibility of criminal penalties for people who went without insurance.
... and of course the public option compromise ...
source: Huffington
The amendment creates a "federally funded, non-Medicaid, state plan which combines the innovation and quality of private sector competition with the purchasing power of the states," according to an  overview.

It would be available to people with incomes above Medicaid eligibility but below 200 percent of the federal poverty level -- a very narrow window. However, Republicans fear -- and progressives hope -- that once the plan becomes law there will be pressure to expand it.

The plan would not be free. It is based on Washington state's Basic Health plan, which costs roughly 60 dollars a month, with the remainder of the premium subsidized by the state.

Private insurers would be eligible to participate in the plan, as would HMOs or other networks of health care providers.

The amendment has been gathering steam all week and was the subject of an extended private session of the finance committee Thursday afternoon before the vote, chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) said.

... so it does give one something to study.

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