Is it worth doing?
About: amazing holes
~
a flushgov inspired moment for some cartoonist. Is HAL worth doing? The predominance of lies in the media that sway the asleep, the lack of Ethos anywhere visably, an abundance of Pathos & very little Logos at all media-wise says probably not.
a flushgov inspired moment for some cartoonist. Is HAL worth doing? The predominance of lies in the media that sway the asleep, the lack of Ethos anywhere visably, an abundance of Pathos & very little Logos at all media-wise says probably not.The real truth is out there with very little research needed & yet the 2000 pound marshmallow won't budge. I am very discouraged today.
By an amusing sympatico the about link above should have been this instead.
Tags
- hal
- worth doing
- google group
Comments
Mark de LA says
seth 2009-10-16 17:21:58 12717
Hal would probably be worth doing, were it not that it is technologically unfeasible.
Well, it is NOT technologically unfeasible. It is politically easily defeated by a megaphone of counter-propaganda facilitated by the M$M + Congresss & the bully pulpit.
Mark de LA says
... I should add because most people are half/fully asleep & self-absorbed in the pursuit of distractions.
Seth says
M 2009-10-16 19:25:54 12717
seth 2009-10-16 17:21:58 12717
Hal would probably be worth doing, were it not that it is technologically unfeasible.
Well, it is NOT technologically unfeasible. It is politically easily defeated by a megaphone of counter-propaganda facilitated by the M$M + Congresss & the bully pulpit.
Well i'm not totally sure what Hal is all about. Version control is pretty standard stuff, but can add so much overhead and process that it gets in the way of understanding. When the government does it, you just get red tape. You then throw in "analysis must yield a demystified exposure of what is in the bills", but demystifying must come from human analysis, not automated process. Thing is when you talk human analysis, you must always be aware of the view point and biases of the humans involved. You never mention that, yet your items are always dripping with your own view points and biases. The effort seems to me to be fundamentally confused.
Seth says
M 2009-10-17 09:57:22 12717
seth 2009-10-17 09:48:52 12717
M 2009-10-17 07:14:20 12717
... I should add because most people are half/fully asleep & self-absorbed in the pursuit of distractions.
Saying that the other side is "asleep" is common propaganda terminology used by people ginned up by a cause who have become awakened in the night by their own paranoia.
That's what somebody who is asleep would say ... go back to 
Hey, i was just identifying some propaganda useage for you.
Mark de LA says
seth 2009-10-17 09:39:01 12717
M 2009-10-16 19:25:54 12717
seth 2009-10-16 17:21:58 12717
Hal would probably be worth doing, were it not that it is technologically unfeasible.
Well, it is NOT technologically unfeasible. It is politically easily defeated by a megaphone of counter-propaganda facilitated by the M$M + Congresss & the bully pulpit.
Well i'm not totally sure what Hal is all about. Version control is pretty standard stuff, but can add so much overhead and process that it gets in the way of understanding. When the government does it, you just get red tape. You then throw in "analysis must yield a demystified exposure of what is in the bills", but demystifying must come from human analysis, not automated process. Thing is when you talk human analysis, you must always be aware of the view point and biases of the humans involved. You never mention that, yet your items are always dripping with your own view points and biases. The effort seems to me to be fundamentally confused.
Yep, this item got side-tracked (as did HAL) by some thin-skinned need to protect the current administration. I use them as examples because they are in power now. group UnhackTheBrain was formed long before the Obami got in power. I am just about the only one thinking about the how to do it. Computers can certainly speed things up & streamline the search for what Congress is doing with out money & our freedoms. But, if they would rather hide out in the darkness there is not much we can do especially when the M$M acts like a willing accomplice. The only thing that would work is flushgov.net.!!!
OTOH, just like the Internet, which some pols were slow to acknowledge the power of, a system ready to put in place for rapid & transparent government might assist a new crop of congress people (after the flushgov) to work as true representatives of the people & could hasten the first flushgov while Congress sleeps.
Seth says
source: MR above
I am just about the only one thinking about the how to do it.
I am just about the only one thinking about the how to do it.
There are several groups actively working to make governmental process more transparent. I subscribe to one of those groups and will report back here if i see any dramatic progress. The dream is to make government communication kind of Web 2.0 like ... something that can almost be done outside of the government by grass roots techies. I would go in that direction, rather than the Cyc direction which, as i mentioned above, is almost certainly fundamentally flawed. Nobody knows how to make a computer understand our human mutterings ... it has to do with needing to be human to comprehend the pinnacle behavior of humans. Thing is, at its heart, there is always some lingering assumption that there is some tangeable "Truth" encoded in language that can be separated from the view point and assumptions of the human who uttered it. You need to give that assumption up before you will grok the fundamental flaw in any Hal kind of approach.
Mark de LA says
Seth: ... Thing is, at its heart, there is always some lingering assumption that there is some tangeable "Truth" encoded in language that can be separated from the view point and assumptions of the human who uttered it.
... Your assumptions about me are false. If you want to live in a monadic World where language is just a personal thing you will succumb to a solipsistic predicament eventually.
This article from an Anthroposophical paper by Rudolph Steiner gives some interesting insights into the evolution & mutation of language & communication in the future. In the end it is all your metaphysics. Simply put nobody knows deeply & directly the why & how of the way things work - they all have their own ways of explaining the course of their own lives. You can think in terms of atoms, quarks, M-branes, spirits, gods, aliens, germs, mind-body connections, NLP, scientific method or Anthroposophical meditation & the 8-fold path. I tend to like Steiner's view rather than the materialistic world of Science that produced such fallacies as the Global Warming hysteria. I have training in both worlds.
This article from an Anthroposophical paper by Rudolph Steiner gives some interesting insights into the evolution & mutation of language & communication in the future. In the end it is all your metaphysics. Simply put nobody knows deeply & directly the why & how of the way things work - they all have their own ways of explaining the course of their own lives. You can think in terms of atoms, quarks, M-branes, spirits, gods, aliens, germs, mind-body connections, NLP, scientific method or Anthroposophical meditation & the 8-fold path. I tend to like Steiner's view rather than the materialistic world of Science that produced such fallacies as the Global Warming hysteria. I have training in both worlds.
Mark de LA says
I am fascinated by the Apache UIMAtools project for NLP & unstructured data. THe plugin tool sets such as the ConceptMapper lookup may be useful. Here is a paper on unstructured information by IBM people. Anyway this follows my interest in natural language processing.
I imagine a thing I call the HAL vision will digest texts of government documents into a CyberMind like cloud which can then be navigated through similar features as the original Cybermind & linguistic adaptations of NLP to ferret out the information one is interested in. A corpus of words from the bills can be bounced against standard dictionaries & legal concepts to form the first level of arrows. First it will be necessary to get laws produced in a standard form during the full life cycle of legislation with a robust version control system (VCS). Line numbers, page numbers & a tracking system must be in place. Chasing a bill in it's formative phases is not transparency. Something similar to our HyPie or a nagivable pie/bar chart expressing all monetary affects of the legislation should be available at many phases of the process. The system must have a high degree of response in both server power & processing power such that most transactions & outputs to the web would appear to be instantaneous. Security so that tampering from within & without must be guaranteed.
Mark de LA says
Here is another thing I would like to expose more thoroughly with HAL - the shell game of government spending our taxes. In order to keep the health care bill within certain proposed limits some of the cost is moved & insterted into other bills. Here is a rather complicated description in an article entitled Taking Obamacare off the Books. The notion is SGR or sustainable growth rate of Medicare payments to doctors. There are of course omnibus bills gathering all kinds of unrelated spending into one bill. It's all a shell game & bad for your wallet. In this case Obama's promise not to raise the national debt or deficit is maintained by putting health care consequences in unrelated bills.
Seth says
source: MR's imagines a thing I call the HAL
Well me also thinks Hal should be done ... whether it will be or not is another matter. The biggest problem with automated natural language processing is the so called grounding problem. That problem will not be solved by any better computer system. But it might be solved by a combination of a human social network integrated with the computer system. In other words humans can enter connections into the data of the system specifying what specific terms actually refer to. So that humans would actually create your "corpus of words from the bills can be bounced against standard dictionaries". The dictionaries could not be just text extracted from standard dictionaries ... rather they would be references with hyperlinks to actual things pointed out by real people. Go through some bills and find some term and then go out on the web and see what it refers to. People need to do that, machines do not have the appropriate grounding.
Mark de LA says
But the more serious situation is that with an unrestrained spending this administration can bribe anyone to go along with their programs. Earmarks for congressional incumbents. Campaign money buys votes. The best legislation money can buy is illustrated in this article about buying doctors support with steady raises in their compensation. I guess the phony photo op with doctors in lab coats wasn't enough to get them all aboard.
Here is a cartoon of what's happening above: ($250) stimulus bonus for old farts.
But the more serious situation is that with an unrestrained spending this administration can bribe anyone to go along with their programs. Earmarks for congressional incumbents. Campaign money buys votes. The best legislation money can buy is illustrated in this article about buying doctors support with steady raises in their compensation. I guess the phony photo op with doctors in lab coats wasn't enough to get them all aboard.
This administration is transparent, but the vast voting public seems to have their eyes closed & their brains asleep. Free money & circuses.
Mark de LA says
Follow the money... apparently Harry Reid & others will be paying off constituent groups so that they suffer least in the government Hellthcare bill:
Source: ... Nevada would get help with its Medicaid bills. The elderly in Florida and New York would receive additional Medicare benefits. And workers in so-called high-risk professions such as firefighting and construction would get a break on a new insurance tax.
Those are provisions that Senate Democrats, including Majority Leader Harry Reid, put in an $829 billion health-care bill to shield constituents from measures intended to pay for the biggest overhaul of the medical system in four decades.
...It amazes me that this kind of stuff isn't subject to the bribery laws.
See Also
- Thought Hyperfast Analysis of Legislation (HAL) with 0 viewings related by tag "hal".