Government Versus the People - WE

     While taking a shit this morning, as usual an epiphany showed up. The difference between my approach to solving collective & social problems & most people is that I look for solutions without the we in government. The we in government is expensive to the point of luxury, low fidelity representation, full of media distortion, lies & deception, special interests, lobbying, ruling class egos, impersonal, majority rules (maybe), corrupt, has winning-fighting mentality, has slow-moving mentality, full of lawyers & bureaucrats, is a fungus living upon the rest of society (symbiotic), self-preserving, nanny-statist, ignorant of spiritual needs, & has many other attributes.
      Same as the rest of us, except ...
the we in government has the power to run our lives, steal our wealth & resources, conduct wars, pervert science into medical & planetary hysteria, devalue & dilute our money etc., take our children, brainwash our children, & shoot & kill us if it is deemed in the public interest...  it's that power that makes the we in government evil.
      I prefer to solve problems by consensus, innovation, cooperation & inspiration with magnetic visions, dedicated stakeholders,  durable outcomes & agile processes which lead to prosperity & abundance .  I recognize that nobody when contemplating freedom & liberty really wants a government except, perhaps, to remove obstacles & provide some protection. I realize that without further evolution mankind needs protection from each other at some group or national level & local levels.
      What is the tipping-point where the government we can be said to no longer serve the personal, individual we?  I say we have already reached that point. I say it has happened because the government we has become the master we & the individual we has become the slave.

Tags

  1. we
  2. meaning of we
  3. government

Comments


Mark de LA says

US versus USA pictures

US versus USA


Mark de LA says
seth 2009-10-31 11:19:55 12783
Government is a very large and highly evolved complex process.  Unless you are integrally involved with working with it, or for it, you cannot feel like you are one with it and call it a "we" as in "we the people".  In that sense, i tend to agree with your anti-government tendencies.  At the same time I cannot say that i am a "we" with Standard Oil, Bank of America, City Bank, GM, or even Microsoft or Google.  Those too are very large and highly evolved complex processes that for the most part do not include me or my intentions or even in most cases my interests.  I said all that to say that basically "we" is the wrong word for this. 
Complexity is not a very good excuse for losing track of who works for whom. Government must serve the people who is we.  Complexity is not a very good excuse for developing a ruling class that thinks it knows better how to spend the taxpayer $$$$ it depends upon than the taxpayers themselves.  Complexity is not a good excuse to erect giant bills with costs in the 1.2 trillion$$$$$$ range to abscond & put 1/6 of the US economy under the thumbs of the ruling class.  As a matter of fact, the complexity is the tipping-point trigger that should send out an loud & raucous alarm that the government has grown beyond it's constitutional limits.


Seth says
Government is a very large and highly evolved complex process.  Unless you are integrally involved with working with it, or for it, you cannot feel like you are one with it and call it a "we" as in "we the people".  In that sense, i tend to agree with your anti-government tendencies.  At the same time I cannot say that i am a "we" with Standard Oil, Bank of America, City Bank, GM, or even Microsoft or Google.  Those too are very large and highly evolved complex processes that for the most part do not include me or my intentions or even in most cases my interests.  I said all that to say that basically "we" is the wrong word for this. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-10-31 11:19:55 12783
Government is a very large and highly evolved complex process.  Unless you are integrally involved with working with it, or for it, you cannot feel like you are one with it and call it a "we" as in "we the people".  In that sense, i tend to agree with your anti-government tendencies.  At the same time I cannot say that i am a "we" with Standard Oil, Bank of America, City Bank, GM, or even Microsoft or Google.  Those too are very large and highly evolved complex processes that for the most part do not include me or my intentions or even in most cases my interests.  I said all that to say that basically "we" is the wrong word for this. 
You do have selective spending to deal with those you exchange money with like the large corporations & the vote to deal with the politicians they contribute to. You also have the monopoly laws to deal with those corporations that grow so large they control one market. Conversely what do you have to deal with a government that grows so large that it controls your freedom?


Seth says
Well with you it seems like it ended up being a "we versus them" which is quit a different thing than a "me against we".  The latter calling up more of an Ayn Rand feeling than the former which has more of the shades of the French revolution. 

Btw, there is no "individual we".  That would be a semantic contradiction ... me thinks you refer instead to "individual me". For me, the "me against we" polarity ends up being a dynamic personal choice; which choice varies from time to time and situation to situation.  I don't think it should be dictated to me by some religious or political ethic.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-10-27 10:27:17 12783
Well with you it seems like it ended up being a "we versus them" which is quit a different thing than a "me against we".  The latter calling up more of an Ayn Rand feeling than the former which has more of the shades of the French revolution. 

Btw, there is no "individual we".  That would be a semantic contradiction ... me thinks you refer instead to "individual me". For me, the "me against we" polarity ends up being a dynamic personal choice; which choice varies from time to time and situation to situation.  I don't think it should be dictated to me by some religious or political ethic.
You misunderstood most of the core essay & your comment is bizarrely unrelated. It is more the microcosm vs macrocosm we.  I could put it in algebra or mentography, but what's the use. Your last comment, unrelated tells me so. You are grinding old axes. Me becomes a we when you find at least a few people who agree with you.  It's mostly the old bread & circuses thingy.  When a mere majority or 51% dictates what is happening in your life then government no longer is a consensus nor serves us all & you have a dictatorship of the thinnest majority. We need to rebalance.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-10-26 09:45:01 12783
This is an interesting post.  There certainly always is a duality struggle between the group consciousness and the individual consciousness.  Semantically i prefer not to confuse an individual's consciousness by calling it "individual we" because "we" refers to a group; but i think i know what you are talking about ... it's just going to take a moment for me to digest it.
I could have used WE for the we in government & small we for individuals & the editorial we. But, the confusion is part of the distinction.  I chose bold to help untangle it. We know that government is us, but when it does not act like a we but more like a WE or the US painted on the bottom of the wings of a B-52 bomber then some are assuming that their part of a collective can act as if they were the whole collective.  Concensus gets lost that way & democracy or a democratic-republic becomes a dictatorship (the ruling class WE against them). 
We once made a distinction in a Zen class between being and Being; the former being the individual & the latter Being was the Cosmic.

Mark de LA says
The basic premise of the essay is to find some way to solve the problems outside of government. That's probably the only way we will get a chance of real concensus.  The principles of lead, follow or get out of the way coupled with if you want something done you have to do it yourself were pretty good principles uncovered in the unstructured random sample of humanity at PJ-2. I like the grass-roots, non-dictatorial nature of that experiment. Build on the good core of that & reject the bad & move on the more challenging problems of our time.

Seth says
source: MR gets testy above
You misunderstood most of the core essay & your comment is bizarrely unrelated.
Nope i understood your "essay" quite well, thank you.  Too bad you cannot just accept my honest reaction to it and even perhaps advance our consciousness in the process. 

There is certainly a "we the people" that verses the "me the individual".  It is your choice to relate-to and feel more of the latter and reject the former.  I totally get that you feel the government has of late been shifting too far to the we side.  And i totally get that there can be a danger in going too far in that direction ... certainly the Soviet communist failure and even our own P2 experiences tell us that. 

However, me thinks, there is another function of government where, not only does it protect us from foreign invasions and criminals, but it also sides with and protects "we the people" against gigantic forces from private individuals and groups.  We need that!  That perhaps is where you and i disagree.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-10-28 13:55:28 12783
source: MR gets testy above
You misunderstood most of the core essay & your comment is bizarrely unrelated.
Nope i understood your "essay" quite well, thank you.  Too bad you cannot just accept my honest reaction to it and even perhaps advance our consciousness in the process. 

There is certainly a "we the people" that verses the "me the individual".  It is your choice to relate-to and feel more of the latter and reject the former.  I totally get that you feel the government has of late been shifting too far to the we side.  And i totally get that there can be a danger in going too far in that direction ... certainly the Soviet communist failure and even our own P2 experiences tell us that. 

However, me thinks, there is another function of government where, not only does it protect us from foreign invasions and criminals, but it also sides with and protects "we the people" against gigantic forces from private individuals and groups.  We need that!  That perhaps is where you and i disagree.
     The still unacknowledged aha! or epiphany is that I look to we-enterprise & not government firstMost people today look to government first.  I put amongst the protection things like natural disasters & domestic enemies.
     We are the most generous people on the face of the Earth but our voluntary help for those in need is just that, voluntary. To force generosity belies the hypocrisy of WE-government & the politicians who live off the fat of that tit. The people being generous are those whose taxes are paying for the fare of having WE-government generosity.  This administration itself is NOT generous at all, but with other peoples money & yet it presumes to suck up the applause & job security because of other people's forced-generosity.
     The other unacknowledged part of the essay is the slavery to the WE-government. I subscribe to the Preamble to the US Constitution (as a purpose for government) , but some interpret the phrase "promote the general welfare" well beyond anything imagined by the first few generations of those governed by it in the New World.
 

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