I Ching as Choice not Divination ?

Does anyone have any thoughts about using the I Ching to choose context rather than for divination ?? In other words, instead of asking the throw of a dice what context obtains, one focuses on the now and, with knowledge of the contexts defined in the Ching, just consciously chooses one to focus on and perchance materialize.

Comments

Mark de LA says

Go for it!

IMHO Book Chameleon was offered as an oracle for the seeker to know what forces are in play at the moment & for the period of time such is questioned. It does not tell you what to do nor what will happen. It is like a musical instrument which has multiple forms but it is up to you to play your song.

Seth says

Well i am not seeking "to know what forces are in play"; nor am wanting to know "what to do or what will happen". Perhaps you did understand that my interest here was, as far as i know, quite novel. If the Ching does provide a complete map of of "what forces" could be in play, then why not choose to tune into specific known areas of that map? Why look for some mystical binding of those to the moment by chance, why not construct that binding myself?

That said, and understood, perhaps we can move on to more interesting questions. I seem to have misplaced my Book Chameleon. If you happen upon an extra copy, could you send me one, or perhaps point to the complete text online? I'm interested in how the hexagram configuration maps to the various situations. What did GW consult to make the descriptions he did?

Seth says

This diagram from Breck's site is close to what i am looking for. But it does not tell the full story.

C says

Here is an example of a matrix 3x4 which yields the 64 hexes. (upper right hand corner). It took me a while to work it out. It's his plus-one algorithm. He also did a 2x8. Basically if you are going with the number 64 you need something which multiplies out that way line 4x4x4 which is the cube. You can get a copy of BC1 through Breck's website. I gave him about 100 copies - about half my stash. My extras are buried in storage for the moment. There is some good news, however. I discovered in some of the black binders a 40 page elaboration, probably Book Chameleon original typed manuscript. It is far more elaborate than the stuff at the bottom of the pages in BC1. When I make the time I will scan it & publish it appropriately. I personally think you have a hang-up against Barbara Cubed which makes you blind to such correspondences to the diagram you liked as say page 5 of BCubed. Is that another one you flushed to the cosmic ooze?

C says

Seth Above: ... Why would you think that i would care whether you care or not.

... Why would you think I care whether or not you are caring that I don't care or not?

Anyway,

Why don't you just start & make it up yourself. The refereced P.2468 has some clues as to numbers, fractions relating to groupings of things. I have encountered some of the things you mention about the course of your day in mine. With the Yi all is about change. There is involution, evolution, revolution & convolution - the root of them means to turn, rotate, etc. in my book those are the kinds of change from current conditions. You can do your own etymology.

Seth says

M 2010-09-22 17:50:30 14346

seth 2010-09-22 16:39:56 14346

Perhaps you missed the very first line of my comment. I don't care what you do with the Ching. What you are proposing sounds more like Nate's Secret stuff than anything else. More power to you. OTHO, if you choose to play the violin with a hammer instead of a bow, don't complain if you get strange results. Let us all know how it turns out.

Why would you think that i would care whether you care or not.

This approach is definitely more in the direction of the law of attraction ... but is not the same thing at all. It comes from my observation that things are not always the same. Now they could be different just because of my mood ... something i ate, or something kind or unkind that someone said to me ... some grand accomplishment of the day ... or some rebellious lack of it. I even notice that while i lay in bed trying to grock the day it instantly changes as soon as i get up and start moving into it. These changes i have a certain amount of control over ... they are not changes the universe is going through ... they are changes that i in particular are going through. But these changes can be recognized as patterns so i should be able to name, classify, and re-recognize them when they reappear. I was just thinking that the I Ching, especially as described in GW's poetry, might just inadvertantly map to some of these same changes. But to know if they are, i have to study the I Ching changes far more than i ever have. Knowing that you practiced the Ching, i had thought that you might be able to shed some light on the matter. But, no, i am not looking for a judgment here from you ... rather i am looking for actual information about the changes.

Seth says

M 2010-09-22 17:50:30 14346

seth 2010-09-22 16:39:56 14346

[..]

That said, and understood, perhaps we can move on to more interesting questions. I seem to have misplaced my Book Chameleon. If you happen upon an extra copy, could you send me one, or perhaps point to the complete text online? I'm interested in how the hexagram configuration maps to the various situations. What did GW consult to make the descriptions he did?

[..] The text of the hexagrams is of course here under each hex. The overall scheme I put out in a color-coded spreadsheet in terms of the breakdown: fire, air, water & earth in the cubic manner (or see Breck's website). The diagram you pointed to that you liked was later elaborated on in Barbara Cubed. If you want to get closer to the origin of the text before it was made into poetry you can consult this website for the Wilhelm translation material. It may or not be a secret any longer, but GW was fucking & using the sexual ecstasy to propel him to heights unknown which inspired his poetry & the rest for each hex.

Thanks for the links. The more i think about it, the more i think the mapping {affirmitive/negative X general/particular X ?/?? } can not be the ancient map of Confucius ... rather it is just some other mapping of 2^3. Nor do i see where GW say it is the same thing in Barbara Cubed. Just because we have a 2^3 array of symbols, doesn't mean we are talking about the same thing.

I had though that the lower half of Book Chameleon did talk more about the I Ching ... that is the material that i am still searching for.

Seth says

source: M asks above (consequently i am bound to answer directly)
I personally think you have a hang-up against Barbara Cubed which makes you blind to such correspondences to the diagram you liked as say page 5 of BCubed. Is that another one you flushed to the cosmic ooze?

No flushing to cosmic ooze going on here, just your misunderstanding of what i said. Obviously I saw the correspondence between Breck's diagram and the one on page 5 of Barbard Cubed ... Doah it is same.

My question is what does it have to do with Confucius's changes? I just don't think there is any mapping there ... it just is coincidentally the same number. If not, then please quote me something that GW wrote which maps those together. Or perhaps can you show how the poem of one hexagram can be derived from the Universal/particular vs Affirmitive/negative polarities?

C says

seth 2010-09-23 10:10:28 14346

Well, the one Breck used also has the Hebrew name of God embedded. The rest will have to wait until I scan the pages or visit my storage.

RS mapped the Zodiac (12-points of view of philosophy) X (7- planetary moods) into a map I put in 3163. GW mapped the zodiac into the 12 edges & 8 corners of the cube which he also mapped into the 4-elements (which I mapped into a color-coded spread sheet along with the literal meaning of the Chinese (Ming) characters) & the 64 hexagrams. Both mapped stuff into the trinity: thought, feeling & will (Q-J-X) the cubic dimensions. I don't quite get what that does not cover for you. You have 12 hours AM & PM if you like the number 12. Why don't you just mind-map or use the-Brain (free for 30 days) & detail what comes up in your model until a pattern shows up?

C says

seth 2010-09-23 13:42:01 14346

C 2010-09-23 13:05:06 14346

BTW, there are 12 senses which can be mapped onto the zodiac or the cube as shown in this picture.

Yes the symbols here are certainly closer to the content of the hexagram poetry than page 5 Barbard Cubed ... and consequently closer to what i am looking for ... but 12 is kind of pesky when it comes to 64, lol. Of course i could just make up my own as i go along ... recognizing a situation when come to again ... then stamp it somwhere in a diagram. But i did want to see if i could tap into the ancient wisdom of the Ching and into GW's poetry in particular.

Hmmm... 12 is just the number of edges on a cube.

My one contribution to the whole mess is the association of the 7 primary questions to the faces of the cube. We have the whole cube itself, K = IS? ; then I = WHO?, O = WHAT?, A = WHEN? ; E = WHERE? ; U = WHY? & finally Y = HOW? ..... essentially the answers to those questions pin down an event (my word for a moment in life).

Seth says

C 2010-09-23 13:05:06 14346

BTW, there are 12 senses which can be mapped onto the zodiac or the cube as shown in this picture.

C says

I scanned the paper called Book Chameleon Appendix with Illustrations by CFR. I also scanned Primer of the Cube section One & a copy of the TofL done by Erigo & approved GW as well as P.1243 the source of my mapping of the senses. This should all be in my Picassa Album called Chameleon which I shared with my google friends. Let me know if you can get to them. Some day I may put them in a PDF as a more permanent place. The first page in the album is out of place & s/b following p.14 of the Appendix. If not I will give you a link.

C says

C 2010-09-23 11:44:42 14346

You can start out with yin & yang then combine them 2 at a time to get the 4 elements:

FIRE	--------
	--------
AIR	--- ---
	--------
WATER	--- ---
	--- ---
EARTH	--------
	--- ---

then 3 - elements at a time to get the hexagrams or 3 grams at a time to get the table of FU_HSI i.e. the 8-points cubic points on the tree of life (the trigrams).

The interaction of a pair of trigrams gives the 64 hexes.

Seth says

What is the link to your Picassa album?

C says

Presumably you found the rest of the pages in the chameleon album.

Seth says

C 2010-09-24 08:59:20 14346

Presumably you found the rest of the pages in the chameleon album.

Yes thanks

.

Actually what i'm curious about is how GW arrived at wisdoms like the following ...

source: p1831 re hex#48

...

_____

The way he says things like this seem to imply that there is some algorithm that connects the configuration of the yins and yangs of the hexagrams to his other symbolisms. But i haven't found that yet. On the other hand, perhaps there is no such connection at all ... perhaps what GW did was to just refer to the words of Confucius to arrive at his poetry in Chameleon. In which case, that would be where my study would go, rather than to the cube. On the other hand, were i to continue this, maybe i should just do as you suggested, and make it all up myself.

C says

Yeah, I remember some dog-eared books on the Yi in his library. There is one from the last century which speaks that way about the lines. I don't know where in storage it is hiding. GW was not the first to put the Yi in poetry. There is also a yellow book of the Yi made by A.C. - Occasionally in the Tai Shu commentary he quotes from it. If I go to storage today, I will give a half-hearted attempt to find it. I have one box labeled I Ching which it may be in & I will look for it close to the front of the unit. Otherwise I would have to sort through 1.5 tons of books to get it if it still exists. Meanwhile you could google around for one like this one. This one sounds familiar. The ones GW used always called it the Yi King. I remember something about the "Sacred Books of the East" probably by James Legge.

In my experience GW claims that the Ming is the most correct. However it is also the most obscure. Someday I will release my translations & the rest of my stuff for the last few years of recording my findings. The ming sometimes follows the Wilhelm translation. The lines which are connected in Breck's website give the closest interpretation based upon structure. The rest of the Tai Shu Commentaries bring in the Tarot, Projective Geometry & the rest including the Cube & Occult Script. The structure follows a cyclic permutation of the yins & yangs of hexagram. Light & Dark or Yang & Yin rise & fall according to cycling the hex upward & moving the topmost to the bottom. You can see some of that in the Hexscans in the pages at the beginning unassigned to a particular hexagram. The other idea is that each line represents some form of hierarchy of people. The original use was political &/or military. A line could represent the father or mother or minister or king etc depending somewhat on context, the first was usually the lowest like son or prince or daughter. The topmost was the father or king - etc. I don't think anyone put the whole thing together as an algorithm. Read the commentaries & maybe you can knit something.

C says

Here is a link to one of his 3x4 matrixes which yields all 64 hexagrams.

Seth says

C 2010-09-23 17:27:05 14346

seth 2010-09-23 16:57:16 14346

C 2010-09-23 15:48:11 14346

seth 2010-09-23 15:38:55 14346

What is the link to your Picassa album?

I can get to it through the google mail & the > more > photos sequence. I would like to see if that works.

Yeah i can get to mine that way too, but that url <http://picasaweb.google.com/home?tab=mq> should only show your album to you ... it doesn't show your album to me. My Picassa album is located at <http://picasaweb.google.com/russell.seth/> which i am sure you also can see.

funny I can get to yours just from my email. There are links on the right side of the page to your albums & elaine's. Here is my link http://picasaweb.google.com/mark.icyberspace/Chameleon?authkey=Gv1sRgCNDC7JH5rPH5aQ&feat=directlink

Well the Picasa url's are no big mystery ...

Here is the URL to my Picasa gallery <http://picasaweb.google.com/russell.seth/>

Here is the URL to your Picasa gallery <http://picasaweb.google.com/mark.icyberspace/>

An here is the direct hyperlink to p18 which on first look contains the mapping of the dice throws to the hexes, thank you

Seth says

Yes, indeed, this one is what i was looking for, thanks!

Mark de LA says

The dice method is mostly covered on Breck's website here. You should probably ask questions after you read it a couple of times. Here is my record of last Friday. The Atlantick dice are essentially a pair of cubes which are exact mirror images of each other. Their faces are sides of the cubes which corresponds to the 6 occult planets: 1-Y-Moon-Silver; 2-E-Mars-Iron; 3-I-Mercury; 4-O-Jupiter-Tin; 5-A-Venus-Copper; 6-Y-Saturn-Lead. You throw them with a yin & a yang influence two at a time (right & left hand) or two people etc. The numbers that come up from 1-6 enter in the columns under the yang & yin (see the record). Odd numbers generate a yang, even numbers a yin. After 3 simultaneous throws you have 6 numbers in 2 columns designated yin & yang. Reading upward from the bottom is the bottom trigram on the left and the other is the top trigram on the right. Use the trigrams as indices in the full map (front of BC1) or Breck's rendition here. The first number is the row & the 2nd number is the column. Thus the record pointed to 2x8 = 58. The rest is the marrying of the thrown hex with the equinox hex yielding a hex which is cyclically permuted to yield the 6 lines from (in this case) 6 hexagrams. I pointed you already where that is explained in the hex scans in the unassigned pages. The primer of the Cube answers your other questions. The Yi presumably corresponds to all change in the universe that we have access. Thus the Chinese characters assigned to each hex should correspond to a division of all those changes into 64 contexts.

Mark de LA says

Even the cube can be found in the Sephir Yetzirah.

Seth says

What does "TofL" stand for?

Mark de LA says

seth 2010-09-25 09:05:42 14346

What does "TofL" stand for?

TofL = Tree of Life, the Otz-chiim. That page from BC1 was referenced (where I mentioned the digrams for the 4-elements), back there on Breck's website here.

Seth says

source: M above
What is more interesting & ignored by all so far is does the 64 hexagrams represent the categories of human life in some context or do they map at least the contexts. I put a lot of energy into the spreadsheet, but nobody has answered that question.

My question now is how are the two trigrams related to give the 8 x 8 = 64 hexagrams? I think i remember something about the minor grams moving into the major grams, but even if that is it, i need to gather some authoritative knowledge about that. Given that in the ancient Yi scheme of things, how is that expressed in GW's cube work?

I don't know what your term "catagories of human life" exactly refers to. Your spreadsheet does list 64 things {Heaven, Subtle Contorl, Great Deal, Great Store, Sure, Wait, Great Vigor, Success, Meet, Gentle, Caldron, Poison, Big Excess, Well, Endure, Ascend, Fraternity, Family, Radiate, Ornament, Reform, All Done, Abundance, Light Shaded, Hide, Develop, Travel, Stillness, Influence, Difficult, Small Excess, Modesty, Tread, inmost trust, Strange, Regulate, Gratify, Decrease, Marry Young Sis, Advance/Approach, Not Wrong, Increase, Gnaw Through, Nourish, Follow, Sprout, Rouse/Quicken, Return, Climax, View, Progress, Split, Gather, Compare, Enthusiam, Earth} that may well be "catagories of life" ... are you saying that they are? Obviously "Marry Younger sister" means something special to someone living in ancient China, but pretty much nothing to sombody living in our modern world. Perhaps all of these 64 things need new names that apply to our lives. Perhaps even each person would need to make up these catagories for themselves ... have you done that?

I do love the cube in one sense in that it has the three orthogonal axes and GW (and perhpas others) have identified those as {Though, feeling, will} which are certainly the components of our experience of each moment. Right?

Then each of the 3 dimensional components has 2 polarities giving the 6 faces of the cube. I suppose that each of the lines of the trigrams correspond to one of the dimensions ... do you know what that correspondance is?

Seth says

In fact on page 204 of The Sacred Book we see Fu-Hsi diagram...

__________________________________

Is there any correspondance to GW's above ?

Seth says

This is definitely what i was looking for, thanks for finding it ...

source: Book Chamelon page 0

......................................................
It gives the correspondance between the 8 trigrams and the 8 points of the cube.

Mark de LA says

The pages in the front of BC1 show up as here & here. They are just a repeat of the table of FuHsi with additions from the TofL. Crowley & Achad & presumably others mapped the trigrams onto the TofL along with the signs of the Zodiac. What is more interesting & ignored by all so far is does the 64 hexagrams represent the categories of human life in some context or do they map at least the contexts. I put a lot of energy into the spreadsheet, but nobody has answered that question. IMHO, the cube is more complete than the Yi & contains the Yi + Tarot + Zodiac + OtzCHiim (TofL) & a bunch of other shit. But if you want you can go back 3000 years to cunts & cocks - it made an awful lot of Chinese people. Your questions don't pass the "Specific" test.

Seth says

C 2010-09-24 15:19:24 14346

seth 2010-09-24 14:57:03 14346

C 2010-09-24 14:34:17 14346

seth 2010-09-24 12:28:29 14346

source: C above
I don't quite get what that does not cover for you. You have 12 hours AM & PM if you like the number 12. Why don't you just mind-map or use the-Brain (free for 30 days) & detail what comes up in your model until a pattern shows up?

12 is great ... it is a product of 3 and (2 x 2) ... so it marries the creative powers of the transcendent 3 with the strength of certain awareness. my question was how it connects with the cube and the Ching.

I don't see where the-Brain would give me more than fastblobgit would, and with fastblogit i would have no structure imposed upon me ... rather i could, were i so to choose, develop my own personal mind map extemporaneously as i went along ... see my states.

A cube has 12 edges or crystals - 4 in each of the 3 dimensions. It has 6 faces - 2 in each dimension. It has 8 corners or points. It has all been mapped out with the appendix to BC.

The personal brain (not the webbrain) has a lot of changes since you probably last used it. One can tag both nodes and lines & seek them out with the search. You can color just about anything. Not all of that comes into the export to the Webbrain.

I can find no connection between the symbols GW associated with the 12 edges of the cube and the symbolism incorpoated in the Yi King, can you? I'm not even sure there will be a connection with the 4 elements (fire,air,water,earth), though have not read the entire book. Of course the yin,yang ... male,female ... affirmative,negative is most certainly there. All in all you may want to agree that the ancient symbols of the Yi do not match GW's symbols incorporated in the cube. If i have missed somthing, can you be specific, and enlighten me?

What ancient symbols are you talking about. Yins & yangs - they are binary. THe chinese characters? The Occult Script maps into the signs of the zodiac as well as the 4-elements & the vowels which map into the faces of the cube. Please remember the map is not the territory. Yin maps to cunt & yang maps to cock - got it?

Shucks i pointed directly to the book, which you had found, which would contain those ancient symbolizations which i whould have sought. On the other end of the connection would be GWs 12 christals (edges) laid out here from your scan ...

...... are they the same? Me, i haven't read the book yet.

Mark de LA says

seth 2010-09-28 12:36:30 14346

M 2010-09-28 10:47:55 14346

seth 2010-09-28 10:06:28 14346

When you cast 53, KWI MIH, how do you interpret "Marry Young Sis" ... I'm just curious ?

No, silly! It is not a literal thingy. See the Wilhelm version here of GW here. You are, metaphorically trying to read an oracle out of a poker hand.

Doesn't matter. How do you interpret #53 ?

Read some of the material in the links for a change! It has to do with family, status & propriety & order of things.

The Cosmic side says: "Projection of the Will, Reflection of the Will; all attributes of liquid combined with those of warmth, fire; the symbol at any level is not the thing; to receive & give are opposites sides of the sephiroth or coins all the way! satisfaction in Motion, Awareness of Nature of things & acting accordingly."

source: ...
By Guī Mèi (the marrying away of a younger sister) the great and righteous relation between heaven and earth (is suggested to us). If heaven and earth were to have no intercommunication, things would not grow and flourish as they do. The marriage of a younger sister is the end (of her maidenhood) and the beginning (of her motherhood).

... Maybe you remember The Golden Lotus (Chin P'ing Mei) that GW read to us when we were much younger. Chinese society had rules, not unlike those in the Middle East, about who can & should marry whom, and love versus social correctness.

Seth says

i was just wondering how you personally interpret it. What goes through your mind when it comes up? My question is about your mind in perpicular, what does it mean to you? Of course i would understand if you don't want to share that with me.

Mark de LA says

seth 2010-09-28 13:32:30 14346

Well, I unprivatized 10579 & 1728 for a clue as to something I must have been thinking under the influence of the

hex in the past. In general I might call it disappointment or emptiness mostly due to the 6th line. Generally speaking it is much more positive than that. I shall pay more attention to it the next time around.

Seth says

M 2010-09-28 10:47:55 14346

seth 2010-09-28 10:06:28 14346

When you cast 53, KWI MIH, how do you interpret "Marry Young Sis" ... I'm just curious ?

No, silly! It is not a literal thingy. See the Wilhelm version here of GW here. You are, metaphorically trying to read an oracle out of a poker hand.

Doesn't matter. How do you interpret #53 ?

I Ching as Choice not Divination ?

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