Trains

There are trains of thought, trains of feeling & perhaps trains of will. It is a good project to identify them all with examples, diagrams & mentography.

Tags

  1. trains
  2. thought
  3. feeling
  4. will
  5. habits
  6. dynamic balance
  7. harmony

Comments


Mark de LA says
The RWG is a train of feeling (rightness & wrongness & it's permutations) which stimulates a train of thought (the words expressed to another) propelled by the train of will not to loose the argument, eh?


Mark de LA says
I had originally intended to keep this item private, but I forgot to check the box before submitting it. The conversation is good anyway.  The interesting thing to me was to find a train of feeling & a train of will. I have a hunch that the female species follows a train of feeling & resorts to thoughts when she has to communicate. I am more a thought kind of guy who seeks out the feeling when the thought train rests or stops.


Seth says
source: M above
Some say that free will is the music played upon the instrument which God has given us in the way of life & something to live it with. We can choose the music. I'm still working on the practical side of that advice.
i like that one.  My ability to play my instrument with my free will is indeed a blessing ... especially when i am able to consciously vary my behaviors away from their habits ... and even shape those habits.  That is for me what my life is all about. 

You may have notices that, especially of late, i have been phrasing my comments in the first person.  Me thinks that is the only honest way to talk about these kind of things.  Your mileage will doubtlessly vary ... what i say about myself, rarely ever applies to others.  For me, grocking that, has been phase two of my recognition of respect and tolerance for otherness ... something that i started talking about on A New Respect for The Specific ... though on that item i was taking a position from a different point of view.  I don't what if anything this has to do with your integrity stuff, but it may be related.

Seth says
M 2010-10-10 12:17:26 14422
     Well, thoughts & feelings ... They are all just phenomena to me, each on equal footing or at least in their own domain as logical objects.
...
     Are you subsuming thoughts, feelings & the will to the train metaphor (habit in your case) ?
 
The tangible grock for me here is that i do my thoughts and feelings just like i do my  actions.  For me that really was a realization, and one that me thinks is useful.  Especially with feelings, which i had been viewing as a result ... as if (in the case of negative feelings) i was experiencing the feelings as a victim.  And instead of viewing thoughts as something picked up from some environ apart from myself, rather i now view them as things that i do ... just like cooking the meal that i just ate.  When i say that i don't have any control of the thoughts that occur to me, or the feelings which befall me, it is just pretty much exactly the same as saying that i am not responsible for the actions i take in the world.  And yes i consider that my , thoughts, feelings, and actions are all my behaviors and as such are mostly habitual.  They are all multi trains where usually (A1 preceeds A2 preceeds An ...).

Mark de LA says
seth 2010-10-11 14:55:36 14422
M 2010-10-11 14:01:52 14422
BTW, if you missed the part about rhythm & harmony you missed an important distinction in habitual behavior!

Yes behavior if frequently repeated periodically or rhythmically ... the 24 hour cycle being the dominant rhythm there.  Such rhythms could be caused either by some habit itself or by some external que, like the sun.  Certainly these rhythms get extremely  complex ... but i'm not immediately grocking where cyclic harmony would play a part in behavior ... if you have a gestalt there, perhaps you could share it.
For the musically inclined, rhythm & harmony as well as melody are important components. Some say that free will is the music played upon the instrument which God has given us in the way of life & something to live it with. We can choose the music. I'm still working on the practical side of that advice.

Seth says
M 2010-10-11 14:01:52 14422
BTW, if you missed the part about rhythm & harmony you missed an important distinction in habitual behavior!

Yes behavior if frequently repeated periodically or rhythmically ... the 24 hour cycle being the dominant rhythm there.  Such rhythms could be caused either by some habit itself or by some external que, like the sun.  Certainly these rhythms get extremely  complex ... but i'm not immediately grocking where cyclic harmony would play a part in behavior ... if you have a gestalt there, perhaps you could share it.

Mark de LA says
     Well, thoughts & feelings as subclasses of actions is probably a good classic definition of Dynamism.  They are all just phenomena to me, each on equal footing or at least in their own domain as logical objects. If thoughts are private then this blog & conversation are futile! Perhaps it is!
     OTOH, the only way to access another human being is through some kind of language. That seems to be true with ourselves as well. There are other degenerate conditions like pure violence & fucking, but these as well could be considered language.
     Are you subsuming thoughts, feelings & the will to the train metaphor (habit in your case) ?
  

Seth says
seth 2010-10-10 11:25:40 14422
M 2010-10-10 10:59:31 14422
seth 2010-10-10 10:23:51 14422
M 2010-10-10 10:06:19 14422
seth 2010-10-10 10:03:10 14422
Habits could be looked at as trains too.  Events in any of the three dimensions of human behavior (thoughts, feelings, actions) habitually que or prompt other ones.  So the habit is that train ... it is the stored memory of what to do, or think, or feel next.
The chicken & eqq question in the habit is "Who's on Top?", the habit which I would associate with will, the thought of doing the habit, or the emotion, good or bad, which propells the whole thing.
Well i have noticed that will (actions) are not the only things that are habitual.  So are thoughts and so are feelings.  Also in my ontology, thoughts and feelings are sub-classes of actions ... they are actions too ... the only grand distinction that distinguish them from what i think you call "will" is that they are private and only the person who does them can experience them.
It's not for naught that Scorpio is ,according to RS, the philosophical  sign of Dynamism & Virgo corresponds to Phenomenalism!


me thinks you are in the habit of thinking that ... you could try not thinking about that when you think about this.
i think the habit always starts out on top.  but doesn not necessilarily stay there.  lately i have been watching this ... noticing when somehing is habitual ... even thoughts ... then zigging away from my habit.

Mark de LA says
Some consider Karma as part of the instrument itself. How I play it out is my music as much as how I deal with the force of gravity or a windstorm. I have been working on removing the you & inserting I when that is what I mean for some while now. It seems more honest.
The integrity thingy is an emerging distinction morst sorely lacking in politics where I first brought it up in Be Skeptical - but learn to listen - bullshit . It is however related to who a person is. How does a person know if he/she/it is in integrity (whole, etc.) if she doesn't know who she is or at least has declared her being as whom she intends to be?

Mark de LA says
seth 2010-10-11 11:49:05 14422
M 2010-10-11 07:45:12 14422
Repetition can be harmonic & rhythmic, it need not be bad as in bad habits. Habits seem to have the connotation of bad although some take on such good habits as exercise & right eating.
NLP uses increased motivation to go in a more resourceful direction than the bad habit would take you along with a trigger (swish pattern) to go in the resourceful direction whenever the desire for the bad habit shows up. GW would say if you don't like what's going on in your mind put something else there!

Mark, you can always assume that when i say "habit" without prefixing it with "bad", i intend absolutely no connotation of bad.  Humans, and other animals,  act primarily according to their habits ... take away their habits and they would act like babies.  So if you have been hearing bad in front of habit whenever i use habit, you have been misunderstanding me all along.
Nice to know that about you!  I was just providing additional information for the other cognosci. You will admit though that common usage is pejorative, eh?


Mark de LA says
BTW, if you missed the part about rhythm & harmony you missed an important distinction in habitual behavior!


Seth says
source: M above
Some consider Karma as part of the instrument itself. How I play it out is my music as much as how I deal with the force of gravity or a windstorm.
Yeah i agree.  To me "Karma" is just cause and effect ... it's how things work. i don't carry any metaphysical assumptions into my thinking on Karma. 


Seth says
source: C above
I have been working on removing the you & inserting I when that is what I mean for some while now. It seems more honest.
   


Seth says
source: C above
The [tag integrity] thingy is an emerging distinction morst sorely lacking in politics where I first brought it up in [title we the people ...] . It is however related to who a person is. How does a person know if he/she/it is in integrity (whole, etc.) if she doesn't know who she is or at least has declared her being as whom she intends to be?

I like "wholeness" too ... if it means the absence of conflicting assumptions and beliefs in my life.  Being "broken" or "incomplete" is not always something that is under our control ... but how we deal with it is.  For example Denise is blind ... that can be considered broken or incomplete ... it does bother here and affects her psyche ... but accepting that in her wholeness is one of the challenges to her life.

I'm thinking "Who i am?" is not a good question for me.  I change with every moment. For me it is more a question of what i choose to be.  Do i choose to be a weak person entrapped by random habits accumulated in a life time of carelessness, or do i choose to be a capable person who sculpts the look and feel of his attitudes, emotions, and deeds?

Mark de LA says
If who you are is some conceptualization then you have lost the point & forgot to wake up! That's about the time in Zen stories where the master usually slaps the novice up-side the head or hits him with a stick!  What keeps you interested in the outcome; like if you are falling off a cliff?
 

Seth says
C 2010-10-15 16:07:46 14422
If who you are is some conceptualization then you have lost the point & forgot to wake up! That's about the time in Zen stories where the master usually slaps the novice up-side the head or hits him with a stick!  What keeps you interested in the outcome; like if you are falling off a cliff?
 
Here we go again.   I don't conceptualize the experience from your Zen meditation.  I can introvert and experience myself jumping for joy or even catch myself looking at myself in echoey manner and then grock ... Wow that is who i am!  That  experience itself is not a conceptualization at all.  But then you went  "It is however related to who a person is. How does a person know if he/she/it is in integrity (whole, etc.) if she doesn't know who she is or at least has declared her being as whom she intends to be".  Well that is something quite different.  That seems to me to be you conceptualizing what "knowing who she is" means. 

Mark de LA says
     The latin word for "I am" is sum - interesting & deep, eh? This discussion has become confused because the verb "to be" & the noun "I" have collapsed into each other. In Latin you may recall that both words have many forms. That could become another whole essay - see the Wikipedia on conjugation & declension. According to GW P.1243 there is a sense for Ego as well as a sense for Motion & many other things which show up when groking life.
     Integrity in the domain of being is what I want to expand upon. Perhaps you nailed it closer than I when you said:
Seth (above): ... I change with every moment. For me it is more a question of what i choose to be.  Do i choose to be a weak person entrapped by random habits accumulated in a life time of carelessness, or do i choose to be a capable person who sculpts the look and feel of his attitudes, emotions, and deeds?

... although I am more inclined to leave the negative side unspoken & move toward a positive statement of who I am being (or becoming).
     IMHO, a more appropriate question in the domain of integrity (whole, complete, unbroken, unimpaired, sound & in perfect condition) is Who am I being as I ..... (insert action or whatever you are doing here)?
As I contemplate the wholeness & integrity part of the question I probably need to know the answer to the question: "... Wholeness with respect to what?" 
     AC & GW somewhat differently define the latter in terms of the Thelemic motto:  Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, Love is the Law, Love under will.  (i.e. complete freedom & the context of Love).  Werner Erhard & the Forum define it as what you say you are & as you honor your word - see 14341 for references. TR created something related to a hierarchy of values & trying to satisfy your highest values. PR creates something out of contemplation.  How would Seth articulate the bolded question?


Mark de LA says
Actually, GW used the Thelemic motto as a principle, the 5-points of fellowship as an organizing principle & requested his members to derive their own VP via instructions for a retirement. See Neophyte Commission: Page 1, 2 & 3 .


Seth says
source: C above
How would Seth articulate the bolded question?
A good question ... one i will work on

There is something that you may, or may not have known about me.  I have been plagued (my word choice here is intentional) with self consciousness since i was very little.  Even as a small child i have frequently turned my attention on myself and specifically on my experience of my experience.  This is not something that i came upon in my 20s to 40s, but rather something that i started doing at age 7 or even before.  One thing that i concluded early on was that it is hard to {watch X} when your are {watching {watching X}} ... it seems to me that there is a serious interference there.  Me thinks that interference needs to be dealt with.  It might be one of the reasons that i refereed to it as a buzz or an echo.  Do you have a way around that interference?

Mark de LA says
THE short answer might be multi-task. It is back to that signal to noise thingy. You are aware of many things at once, but most of your attention is on the most important thing given some context.  I shift from one thing to another rather rapidly but the others don't just disappear. The miracle of fastblogit sometimes helps & sometimes hinders & causes ADHD.  But I can still go back & forth & maintain a thread.  I know what you mean however.  One of the problems I had with PR's Zen Body-Being was that I couldn't see how I could ever accomplish all the feeling-attention necessary to master ZBB & do anything else with my life.  I speculate that it is a matter of practice & returning again & again to the point of the exercise until it all merges together.  Someday when I get farther into ZBB I will write & ask Peter if he is totally self-conscious all the time. My memory of GW is that he must have been most of the time. P.2630 in the Webbrain gives part of the riddle. As you travel up the tree of consciousness those things which were separate below coalesce to form the level you are on & then you differentiate the one you are on. I have done something like contemplate my awareness starting out with what I am aware of & then I moved to just awareness itself. That latter thingy is like awareness is my giving brilliance to life In NLP terms it would be like turning up the gain on all sub-modalities - (inadequate, but then I am using words).

Seth says
Well one thing i discovered is that the Tai Shu Commentary in your brain is growing and becoming a useful reference tool.

Mark de LA says
seth 2010-10-18 05:55:32 14422
Well one thing i discovered is that the Tai Shu Commentary in your brain is growing and becoming a useful reference tool.
Yep!  I add 6 per week if they are not already there. The challenge is the tool itself is far more useful & interesting & the web version still sucks to some extent.  For example I have a tagcloud of 235 words outside of the main categories that I can search on & find all nodes that I tagged with the words. The webbrain sucks in that department so far. Too bad I can't give you a uri to the individual nodes or the tags.
(thanks for noticing).

Seth says
this item is pertinent to my current agenda ...

source: mark in body of item
There are trains of thought, trains of feeling & perhaps trains of will. It is a good project to identify them all with examples, diagrams & mentography.

... i think I would also need to include the outside world in that diagram ... these trains do not exist in isolation from that.  The point would be to shed some light on how to achieve this cherished dynamic balance.  Not perhaps even a method, just an understanding of the edges that need to be watched. 

There was a video of a lady on a stage balancing things on a mobile in an incrediable way ... i think it was shared on face book ... i'm looking for that image now.


Seth says
OMG i found it with a simple google search of "woman balancing mobile on stage"  ... it is here.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-31 08:37:13 14422
this item is pertinent to my current agenda ...

source: mark in body of item
There are trains of thought, trains of feeling & perhaps trains of will. It is a good project to identify them all with examples, diagrams & mentography.

... i think I would also need to include the outside world in that diagram ... these trains do not exist in isolation from that.  The point would be to shed some light on how to achieve this cherished dynamic balance.  Not perhaps even a method, just an understanding of the edges that need to be watched. 

There was a video of a lady on a stage balancing things on a mobile in an incrediable way ... i think it was shared on face book ... i'm looking for that image now.

Yes, I have grown on in the past couple of years since then mostly by studying PR more closely. Neither he nor GW billed themselves as teachers or gurus (please do not dispute that here) . PR has said so in his web biography somewhere. PR was willing to share what he had experienced that could help others & grew a following. GW had other motives - apparently mostly research - mostly embodied in his name Genesthai.  He can speak for himself & does in the Tai Shu. These & even RS have said that reading a description & a diagram is only secondary to actual experience & tends to prejudice experience rather than actually encountering what's there. The diagrams are less interesting except to untangle the language.  Sometimes they both do not work together for me.  I do NOW  prefer more actual stories of accomplishment, and other's experience from a "fair witness" perspective. The better the communique the more I can digest & make my own if I want to.  Even discriptions from the person himself work if he can conjure such a perspective. Nathan, while having a nice heart & some good stuff, is still hinding behind hokus-pokus & will not submit to an exact test in public. Furthermore I doubt he has produced any real articulation of his methods but only points to others.
Well, that is my brain dump of the moment on your comment.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-31 08:37:13 14422
this item is pertinent to my current agenda ...

source: mark in body of item
There are trains of thought, trains of feeling & perhaps trains of will. It is a good project to identify them all with examples, diagrams & mentography.

... i think I would also need to include the outside world in that diagram ... these trains do not exist in isolation from that.  The point would be to shed some light on how to achieve this cherished dynamic balance.  Not perhaps even a method, just an understanding of the edges that need to be watched. 

There was a video of a lady on a stage balancing things on a mobile in an incrediable way ... i think it was shared on face book ... i'm looking for that image now.

I like the trains metaphor & am still trying to identify the others besides a train of thought in real life somewhere.  Trains of feeling seem to be attached to the female species. Trains of will may be there in PR's Art of Effortless Power - jury still out. The famous quote "The consciousness commands & the body obeys" (don't argue that here) is my touch stone for will.


Seth says
train metaphor may work well in some contexts ... where a direct cause/effect/effect/effect ... is apparent.  another metaphor is a spreading wave ... effects many things in many ways, gets reflected and refracted.  nathan likes vibrations (er, the same thing as waves), but are like vibrations attracting each other really that dominant of a effect? ... subjectively maybe, i am not so very sure ... but there is no doubt of the effect.  me i'm looking for a peculiar model in my peculiar predicament which may or may not shed some light.

Mark de LA says
A train is just a sequence of things - not necessarily cause & effect.


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