What Kind of Being Does it Take to RIOT?

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     In pondering Cloward-Piven Strategy for orchestrated crisis it occurs to me that it is a very strange way to solve problems. What kind of a person riots to get something?  Is rioting not analogous to a spoiled brat making a scene in a grocery store in order to get some candy? Inject a bit of evil, some destruction & perhaps some deaths & you get the picture. How unconscious & uncivilized do you have to be to start such a thing or get caught up in the whirlwind of mobs? Can just anyone be caused to riot?

<==(***)
I say that below are some of the causes:
  1. Government Failure & secrecy
  2. Self insufficiency
  3. Anarchy - Lawlessness
  4. Fear (imaginary future & lack of NOW)
  5. Food, Clothing & Shelter
  6. Controlled communication & freedoms
  7. . . . etc.

     I say that governments not connected to or too remote from their constituents is the fertile soil of such causes. I say consciousness & the notion of self reliance & self as cause is the solution.  14836 when available is one step in a multi-step possibility to address such challenge.

** 2/2/2011 - all this antedated the Egyptian Riots.  Now I ask can a mob ever think rationally? Somebody is always pulling the strings - a wolf amongst the buffalo so to speak!

Tags

  1. whirlwind
  2. riot
  3. cloward-piven
  4. Jan25
  5. Egypt
  6. Rule777

Comments


Mark de LA says
I have also discovered the term crowdsourcing which is fascinating & some open source software put out by SwiftRiver which has a facebook page. Some of this fits together with my primary goals.

Seth says
I recently ran into "crowd-sourcing" in our organizational meetings to get a11ysea going.  In that context we were talking about how to control the event by virtue of the people we invite to come.  Apparently this word is vogue in socially connected groups.

Mark de LA says
     This one may have bearing too!  Renewed Push to Give Obama an Internet "Kill Switch" .
     My original post was stimulated by the intuition that riots & demonstrations rarely accomplish anything except destruction, M$Media attention & polity who want to justify their existence by passing laws & throwing money at something.  I wanted to shame both the people rioting & the M$Media who magnify & megaphone its importance.  But, then most people who riot & destroy things are not likely to read this blog. Threefoldness, where people are connected closer to the pivot points of action in grass roots conversation & a wholesale change which separates economics from politics & Art & Medicine will dissolve the problems.
      And the GR is the ultimate solution.

Seth says

seth 2011-01-25 10:53:47 14838
This article from the guardian may have bearing on this item: We need a serious critique of net activism: The Net Delusion argues that technology isn't necessarily good for freedom �" but how else can the oppressed have a voice?


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-01-25 12:26:27 14838
also relivant & topical http://news.meedan.net/index.php?page=events&post_id=311452
I still say it is like a brat in a candy store making a scene to get his/her way. Otherwise go watch animal kingdom for clues as to how animals get their way!


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-01-25 14:54:55 14838
C 2011-01-25 14:34:20 14838
Drudge now links to a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/BREAKINGNEWS

So is twitter now causing riots?
Well don't see any coverage of the revolution in Egypt on drudge either, their linking to twitter notwistanding.
It's right in the middle of the page.

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-09 16:47:20 14838
I think there is a big problem with Rule #777 in that there is no practical way to determine "where a member state has no effective government".  What do you do, take a vote of the members? 
That is a great challenge, especially for the UN. I don't think Egypt has reached such a point yet.  Southern Mexico is getting close along our common border. Somalia with her pirates definitely needs some work. Haiti is a fairly good candidate. I think a democracy with a constitution as the yard stick, naturally. One could test Egypt by a quick poll of the protestors or Mubarak requesting UN monitors for the future election & see who objects.


Seth says
source: M repeats a slogan
"That which can be taken by force can be taken away by force."
Thing is about a cute little slogan like that, you can substitute anything you like for "force" and still come up with a true sentence.  I get no wisdom from it.

Sometimes needed change happens with force and other times it happens with slow evolution of little things that naturally and easily can be changed.  Knowing which to apply in which situations is part of the high art of knowing how to live.   How to summons the courage to change is a biggie.  Somtimes force is necessary or the behavior continues, other times just discovering a viable alternative is all that is necessary, other times learning to live with what irks works just as well. 


C says
seth 2011-02-08 11:11:57 14838
M 2011-02-08 10:20:52 14838
For an idea of a peaceful rally or demonstration see this Glenn Beck rally in Washington D.C. There are many other kinds of examples. Not all demands for a free democracy obtained by rioting yields a free society. The people that seem to be the most organized are also the most radical.  You can see this in Iran. Now they have essentially one party & they kill demonstrators on the street.
Glen Beck's thing was a rally, #Jan25 is a revolution.  I doubt that anybody though the Glen Becks thing would change a government, but #Jan25 will change the government of #Egypt.  All the demands of the youth of Egypt may not be realized, but there will be radical changes in that government.  This is also not a theocratic revolution like Iran, and there is no evidence from the streets of Ciro that it is.  You are comparing apples to oranges. 
... & YET the elections last year removed the Democrat Party majority in the House of Representatives, the governerships of the states & narrowed the margin in the US Senate & Obama has to include more Republicans in his plans & listen to more of his electorate. It is amazing what civilized people can do with just persuasion. Glenn Beck was part of that! Nobody was killed by that rally.


C says
seth 2011-02-02 16:08:12 14838
source: M status in this item
** 2/2/2011 - all this antedated the Egyptian Riots.  Now I ask can a mob ever think rationally? Somebody is always pulling the strings - a wolf amongst the buffalo so to speak!
Well, yes, it's not very rational to go out in the streets to loot and riot ... the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles come rapidly to mind as an example.  But it is  rational for people to mass together to overthrow a tyrant.  I think the victors of this struggle will write in the History books the judgement whether #Jan25 was just another riot or rather a revolution that changed the government of #Egypt.  Me, i'm betting on a revolution.
That which can be taken by force can be taken away by force.

Seth says
I think there is a big problem with Rule #777 in that there is no practical way to determine "where a member state has no effective government".  What do you do, take a vote of the members? 

Mark de LA says
While I am quite sure that the underlying cause of the riots begin with economics & failure of the system to provide the basics of food, clothing & shelter with a modicum of social dignity, I suspect that the benefactors are likely to be the Muslim Brotherhood & their alignment of organizations whose long term goals are a Caliphate of the Middle East under Islamic Law.  Look here for some basics to investigate. On this website you can also find their vision for North America & the West.


Mark de LA says
Some say that the economy & in particular the inflation in the commodity markets for food items such as corn & rice have more to do with the riots in Egypt & elsewhere in the ME than the yearning to be free from dictatorship & an opressive government.
IBD: ...

While the mainstream media focus on the political aspects of this turmoil, they are overlooking the impact of rising inflation, driven mainly by record food prices. For example, former Bush adviser Dan Senor notes that Egypt is the world's largest wheat importer. Yet because of skyrocketing prices, Egyptian inflation is now over 10%, while some experts estimate that Egyptian food inflation has risen to as much as 20%.


...
 coming your way in a big city near you ?  (or NOT) - hopefully we have some more rationality & consciousness to work with.

C says
seth 2011-02-02 17:17:47 14838
source: M above
That which can be taken by force can be taken away by force.
... which of course is a true sentence .  But i can't think of any regime which got changed without some kind of violence, can you?  
The regime of GW Bush to the regime of Obama. America is an example. I hope you are not in favor of violence!


Seth says
C 2011-02-02 17:57:24 14838
seth 2011-02-02 17:17:47 14838
source: M above
That which can be taken by force can be taken away by force.
... which of course is a true sentence .  But i can't think of any regime which got changed without some kind of violence, can you?  
The regime of GW Bush to the regime of Obama. America is an example. I hope you are not in favor of violence!

Give me a break ... the scheduled constitutional change of administration every 4 years in the US is not a "regime change".   You did not answer my question.

Luckily i was born into a country which has a tolerable government which respects the liberties and human right of its people ... so i address the question of violence to change a government only academically and from a historical perspective.  I think my sentence "it is rational for people to mass together to overthrow a tyrant" remains standing as true ... your own judgements and attempts to reframe it notwithstanding. 

Note that my sentence does not in fact advocate using violence. Usually the violence comes from the regime and is directed against the people to suppress the uprising; #Jan25 being a case in point, Gandhi's India being another.

Mark de LA says
The USA is a perfect example of how you change a government. We noticed that in the last election - things are beginning to change (in the right direction)! Lawlessness is neither right nor rational. Anarchy is NOT either. The real power in Egypt & Iran & China & North Korea is the Army & military. The real place for revolution is internal to the human being. Hitler, Mao, Stalin & the Ayatollahs in Iran just simply killed off the previous government leaders, but as Saddam Hussein found out:  that which can be taken by force can be taken away by force. Q.E.D. 

The job left to do in Egypt is to install a constitutional government with the rule of law prominent.

C says
seth 2011-02-09 08:31:20 14838
source: M repeats a slogan
"That which can be taken by force can be taken away by force."
Thing is about a cute little slogan like that, you can substitute anything you like for "force" and still come up with a true sentence.  I get no wisdom from it.

Sometimes needed change happens with force and other times it happens with slow evolution of little things that naturally and easily can be changed.  Knowing which to apply in which situations is part of the high art of knowing how to live.   How to summons the courage to change is a biggie.  Somtimes force is necessary or the behavior continues, other times just discovering a viable alternative is all that is necessary, other times learning to live with what irks works just as well. 

It must be too zen for you. Discovering that it might still be true substituting any word is interesting as it somehow shows up as a zen corollary of the Golden Rule. Nevertheless, it is also true to begin with. Good & Evil, abstractly in a fight end up in a dynamic equilibrium - nobody wins, nobody loses but when you go to a new dimension such as Love it changes the game a bit. Love can transform both sort of like an insurgency or getting out of the RWG under purpose. Literally the phrase means that force is the wrong tool because it is transient & can shift sides. A new tool is needed.


Seth says
A new tool would be great .

I'm not ready to legislate against using force ... me thinks it would be a bad law in any venue.  In the case of #Jan25, i doubt that the Egyptian dictator/tyrant would ever have voluntarily given up his power to the people of Egypt without some kind of force being wielded.  Something dramatic was necessary.  The situation is now in flux where change can happen ... there, of course, is great risk, and no guarantee of what you may think to be a successful outcome; but me thinks the outcome from now will be quite independent of the force that got us here.  I'm not a fan of the idea that the means metaphysically tarnishes the result ... your morality rules notwithstanding ... of course that does not preclude the fact that everything you do has its consequences.

C says
Too bad the UN is such a corrupt, impotent, bungling, group of bloviators they might be of value here.  Imagine an imaginary Rule #777 for emergencies where a member state has no effective government. It would be called into effect where there is no effective government in a state & the people are in serious distress (the devil is in the details of such definitions). Rule #777 would require all member states to be unanimous in providing the tools, personnel & money necessary to guarantee free, open & fair elections of a new government with a boiler plate constitution to start out with & a process of peaceful change of said constitution once a government is in place.  The required cooperation also requires complete sanctions against any government that refuses cooperation.  Given the truth of my first sentence above, however it does not bode well for happening. 
 

C says
A interesting stimulus to getting such a rule might be for the US to defund the UN until it is not corrupt, not impotent, not bungling, not wasteful & not just a group of bloviators & IS a group who could implement such a rule.



Seth says
Well the one thing i really like about #777 is that it could put human individuals above their nations.  That is where we should be.  We should all be above our governments ... more important than our governments, more important than our nations, and certainly above our dictators and our tyrants ... even perhaps above our bosses.  The only thing we should not be above is the law.  That is, unless the law thinks that it is above us ... then we should rebel even against the law.

The other thing i really like about #777 is that it is a hash reference ... a twitter search ... and a very good one indeed .

Mark de LA says
There is a rights domain wherein everyone is equal in threefoldness. It is independent of a lot of what you call government. I don't know anything practical out of your #777 except twittering.  I know I wouldn't trust a 7 yr old to run our national economy, but we could hardly do worse.


Mark de LA says
Note: There is no connection between my imaginary UN Rule 777 & the twitter search term #777. They are almost opposites.  You wouldn't put children above their parents, would you?
In democracies the people's voice counts the most, but 310 million people will never agree, so .... Hopefully, a dynamic equilibrium works out through continuous evolving elections which are open, free & transparent.


Seth says
M 2011-02-10 09:10:02 14838
Note: There is no connection between my imaginary UN Rule 777 & the twitter search term #777. They are almost opposites.  You wouldn't put children above their parents, would you?
In democracies the people's voice counts the most, but 310 million people will never agree, so .... Hopefully, a dynamic equilibrium works out through continuous evolving elections which are open, free & transparent.

Actually i would put children above their parents in the sense that children are more important than their parents ... ask any good parent and they will agree. 

I think you have totally misunderstood what i am saying here.  You might understand what i am saying better if you consider it as a direct definition of human rights.  It says  "we the people are the government" it is of us and for us.  So my version of #777 is anti big government and anti nationalism.  Your mileage, of course, will vary.

It contains some of the same message as your Rule #777 in the sense that your rule provides a way for people to overcome their unjust or non functional government. 

I don't see the UN as the voice of the actual people of the world ... rather i see the people themselves as their voice.  You just can't listen to them with one small narrow minded ear. 

My #777 places individuals and their freedom and human rights above governments ... all of them. 

Seth says
M 2011-02-10 10:12:13 14838
There is a rights domain wherein everyone is equal in threefoldness. It is independent of a lot of what you call government. I don't know anything practical out of your #777 except twittering.  I know I wouldn't trust a 7 yr old to run our national economy, but we could hardly do worse.

Well if you get from my #777 that a 7 yr old would/could/should run our national economy, they you don't understand the first thing about what i said.  Nor do i say anything about equality between people although that is certainly important.  What i said is about the relationship between You (or I) and our government.  I am just saying that our individual independence and freedom and what we do is more important than the government controlling what we do.   If you think about it, that is the same thing that the tea party is saying; but they of course confuse the message with a lot of other shit, which i don't subscribe to.

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-10 11:15:54 14838
source: M says
I suggested things obtainable by concensus primarily. People will have to learn how to persuade & lead - no force!
This is the place where your Rule #777 is quite different than my meme #777.  I don't think that there is any practical way for and "concensus" at the UN to ever emerge.  I don't think there is any rule that they can make that could ever be triggered or ever by enforced.  I don't think that would ever be practical.   The only way for the meme #777 to be enforced is the way the people in Tahrir Square have done it, by Revolution. 

Meme #777 just returns things to anarchy & rioting, then!


Seth says
M 2011-02-10 11:48:45 14838
seth 2011-02-10 11:15:54 14838
source: M says
I suggested things obtainable by concensus primarily. People will have to learn how to persuade & lead - no force!
This is the place where your Rule #777 is quite different than my meme #777.  I don't think that there is any practical way for and "concensus" at the UN to ever emerge.  I don't think there is any rule that they can make that could ever be triggered or ever by enforced.  I don't think that would ever be practical.   The only way for the meme #777 to be enforced is the way the people in Tahrir Square have done it, by Revolution. 

Meme #777 just returns things to anarchy & rioting, then!

Sorry i don't follow how that could be implied.

Seth says
source: M says
I suggested things obtainable by concensus primarily. People will have to learn how to persuade & lead - no force!
This is the place where your Rule #777 is quite different than my meme #777.  I don't think that there is any practical way for and "concensus" at the UN to ever emerge.  I don't think there is any rule that they can make that could ever be triggered or ever by enforced.  I don't think that would ever be practical.   The only way for the meme #777 to be enforced is the way the people in Tahrir Square have done it, by Revolution. 


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-10 11:07:10 14838
M 2011-02-10 10:40:27 14838
seth 2011-02-10 10:30:02 14838
Note that your Rule #777 does exactly the same thing as i am saying in that your rule says that there should be a way for people to override the sovereignty of the state. My wording is perhaps a bit more general, but it comes from the same thrust.
Actually your idea brings to mind a test of whether imaginary UN rule 777 could be applied & that is when nobody except hooligans & gunmen (cf. the Wild, Wild West) is exercising sovereignty.
NO! I am not in favor of one-World government. I suggested things obtainable by concensus primarily. People will have to learn how to persuade & lead - no force!

Did you put up #777 tweet tag?
Yes i defined and coined the twitter search.  But it doesn't show up in the search yet and i don't know why ... perhaps only numbers does not a search tag make ... or perhaps twitter is quit a bit behind in their searches.

Note that nothing i am saying implies a "one-World government".   If you think so, you have missed my point.  What i am saying is that there is something that is more important than the sovereignty of any government ... and that is the sovereignty of individuals ... no matter to which government they are subjected.
You must define sovereignty of individuals because the wikipedia thinks it means:
source: ... Sovereignty is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory
... once you get a group of people of some size & some consequential behavior occupying geographic areas you need more than individualism, IMAO.


Seth says
seth 2011-02-10 04:34:12 14838
source: my tweet


...


Well apprently you need letters in the hash references over at twitter ... so this would need to be #Rule777 ... which tweet does in fact show up as a search.

... just saying and updating my knowledge base.

Mark de LA says
Is Drudge overusing the coin or is it the main$tream media?
.
.
.
'DAY OF RAGE' HITS WISCONSIN

Seth says
MR 2011-02-17 10:39:40 14838 
I know how to do that.  I kept it emphasized on purpose. I am outraged by the coin "day of rage" - it seems to incite riots.
It seems that it was not drudge's coin, it was used at least here ...
source: Amanpour: Freedom Fever Spreading in Middle East on ABC
in Libya, where 14 dead are already dead in protests this week and protesters are calling for a day of rage in several cities - again we see Moammar Gadhafi has been there for the last 40 years.
Me thinks it is used to incite Revolution.  In retrospect were the demonstrations in Egypt "riots"?  I think not, but i suppose it depends on which side you stand what you will call it.


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-17 10:34:22 14838
obviously it distorts your text to copy paste from drudge.  What i do in a case like that is to take the extra time to pop up a notepad, paste in there, then copy and paste it into fastblogit and go back and apply the hyperlink. 

I'm working on making that even easier with "New-twist-twitter-text" see my question at stackoverflow here and my dev item here.
I know how to do that.  I kept it emphasized on purpose. I am outraged by the coin "day of rage" - it seems to incite riots.


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-17 12:47:35 14838
MR 2011-02-17 10:39:40 14838 
I know how to do that.  I kept it emphasized on purpose. I am outraged by the coin "day of rage" - it seems to incite riots.
It seems that it was not drudge's coin, it was used at least here ...
source: Amanpour: Freedom Fever Spreading in Middle East on ABC
in Libya, where 14 dead are already dead in protests this week and protesters are calling for a day of rage in several cities - again we see Moammar Gadhafi has been there for the last 40 years.
Me thinks it is used to incite Revolution.  In retrospect were the demonstrations in Egypt "riots"?  I think not, but i suppose it depends on which side you stand what you will call it.

You would probably spin a day of "rage & anger at Obama" & his spending the US into 3rd World status differently than I would!
 

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