Manifesto: Freedom of The Internet


Our communication spaces on the internet should not only be free of government interference, but also from corporate manipulation.  These spaces are truly an extension of ourselves and as such should be exclusively in our control.  That needs to become a human right.


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And shared on facebook here.
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Please note that this manifesto is not an excuse to lobby for free internet access.  Free of governmental and corporate manipulation does not imply a no cost service.  Those are totally unrelated ideas.  In fact when some government or some corporation gives you something free, they are probably doing it for the effect that they can have upon you, not because they think it is something you should just have ... witness free eduction given to you by the government.  No, to have this thing under your control, you should be responsible for it's cost ... you should pay for it. 

Tags

  1. internet
  2. freedom
  3. manifesto
  4. cloud computing
  5. killswitch
  6. security
  7. online piracy
  8. sopa
  9. LinkedData
  10. FreeMyData
  11. blablabla
  12. Jan25

Comments


Mark de LA says
On freedom: http://kristinakaine.posterous.com/we-have-all-the-freedom-we-need-we-dont-need
On Rodney King: http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/17/us/obit-rodney-king/index.html
...


Mark de LA says
Just wait until healthcare becomes a utility & they give you more or less care depending if "they" think you are too fat or too old or part of an ethnic imbalance to deserve it.

Seth says
Incidentally this is related to my question ...
source: in a tweet
How can we pub in the cloud totally independent of domains and companies that come into and go out of business?
... ??


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-01-29 07:12:38 14892
M 2011-01-29 07:06:05 14892
Every truly free enterprise manipulates business to maximize profit - they are not altruistic. Until human beings lose their Egos, a step backward, the buzzword should be dynamic equilibrium between all the forces, IMHO.
 
That is somewhat true; but is it always right?  Would you accept that your utility company could give you more or less heat if they liked the way you were using it?  No, i think not.

Dynamic equilibrium, Bro!

Seth says
M 2011-01-29 08:03:07 14892
M 2011-01-29 07:59:20 14892
seth 2011-01-29 07:46:16 14892
Incidentally this is related to my question ...
source: in a tweet
How can we pub in the cloud totally independent of domains and companies that come into and go out of business?
... ??

How about an etherpad hosted in a free flowing P2P bit-torrent manner?


anchored to tags (of course)!
  The Internte Manafesto in a etherpad.

Thing is, re this #FreeMyData meme we need to deal with a real technological hurdle ... this is not just another free to write and share idea.  It is definitely in the direction of bit-torrent but without the wierdness ... we still need URLs ... places on the net ... be this relates to how the integrety and continuity our personal data can be maintained across different devices, corporate tramas, and political uprisings.

Mark de LA says
Maybe the Internet version of CyberMind !

Seth says
source: tweet
How can the integrity and continuity of our personal data be maintained across different devices, corporate traumas and political uprisings?



C says
I'm unclear what windmill on which silo you are tilting at.  General purpose information became compatible in CyberMind via MPL. Too bad we don't have it now in a 5th generation version in the cloud.  I can speculate that what you want is one link which gets anyone to all uri related to you, & which you can edit & control access to, but why? What makes you think that a central control or unified system would work any better than we have right now? What are the benefits of what you propose? What happens if something like the silly things that crop up with our DHS no fly list won't happen with what gets implimented in your own image? What could be the unintended consequences of what you propose?

Seth says
M 2011-01-30 07:21:54 14892
Lest ye forget, the cloud is imaginary & still hardware based & attached to computers connected by an internet or mobile network of some kind depending upon the good will of all concerned.

Well i'll leave the speculation of what it will be like to access the Akashic Records via http to those with more imagination.

Thing is the Internet was created by following a few simple rules about how to cooperate and not fragment into little proprietary boxes.  It ended up being a big boon to the companies who followed those rules ... forsaking exclusive manipulation in favor of universal access to to the pool.   In that environment the pool, the Internet at large, flourished, and those, mostly tel-com companies, made big profits.  Now it is time to apply the same kind of thinking to people's personal information.   I'm talking about this kind of personal information ... and why it is in a litttle incomparable box from this information and with that kind of information?  Can you grock that these information bits are tied to proprietary silos over which i have no easy control.  Yet it is my information.  I would gladly pay $20 per year if i could have effective control of my own information.  Wouldn't you?  Companies could thrive on selling exactly that commodity.  Shit, Google and the rest of them are essentially giving it away now and making the big bucks on their ability to leverage it for advertising revinue. 


C says
BTW, the Akashick Record is beyond digital, but I think you knew that.


Seth says
C 2011-01-30 14:07:16 14892
How about identity theft & cheating & misinformation spread about the identity behind your menton? What's the business model that says it is viable outside of subsidy.

The business model is the tried and true ISP.  Charge monthly or yearly for services rendered.  If you think about it, your ISP gives you access to the internet, where you can read and write information ... if your ISP goes out of business, you just switch ISPs and don't miss a heartbeat. 

The strong crypto protocols are what protects you from "Identity theft & cheating".  There are well thought out protocols that can give you whatever level of security you need. 

"Misinformation spread about your identity" is same as it always was ... anybody can say anything about whatever ... i don't see any specific change there.   If you intend not to be an authentic person, there is nothing preventing you from adopting a fictitious identity ... nothing here prevents or discourages that kind of behavior.  In fact you could even make a business of vouching that #blablabla is an authentic person who lives here and who's name is Mr Who's his face and does yadayadayada.   The trust industry could actually start flourishing because the basic identity answering the question who-are-you-talking-about would then be solved.

Seth says
C 2011-01-31 08:45:33 14892
Right now I don't get charged any more for access to all the Internet I want. What is the commercial benefit of such a feature? Who besides you would want it? Why? If it's like a dinky little electric car that runs 50 miles on one charge & then has to be pushed only the government can subsidize it to make it happen.

Well people pay extra for special access to information on the Internet all the time,  the NYT access to articles and Google charging for more photo storage comes rapidly to mind.   I can imagine that some of these extra internet services are doing quite well. 

I don't know about other people, but i have always evolved my own information space since the days when i started using CyberMind and more recently with fastblogit.  In it i put bookmarks, my evolving thoughts, and contacts and phone numbers.  Thing is as my computers and services change these spaces get disrupted.  So the benefit to people would be the continuity of their information spaces.  Perhaps many people will not give a shit, but me thinks there are enough people who want that evolution and continuity of their knowledge base such that they would want to buy it.  Selling that new commodity is a commercial cherry ripe for the pickings of a smart entrepreneur.

Seth says
seth 2011-01-31 10:08:51 14892
C 2011-01-31 09:49:09 14892
OTOH, you could keep it locally & pay for a backup service like carbonite.

Doesn't really matter where it is kept ... just that (1) it is under your control, (2) is  accessible from your various devises, (3) and is immune to changes in hardware and corporate and governmental trauma.

Relative to (3) i have had various email providers since i started on the internet in '94 and up to about ~2000 i used local email readers like outlook, eudora, etc.  Every time i changed computers i ended up loosing most of my email history.  But since ~2000 i have had continuity of my email memory.  In practice i have found that at least for email history and searchability, the cloud is far superior for continuity than my own local efforts.
Actually we need to add a very important other requirement (4) is accessible by others with whom you elect to share information.

Seth says
source: C in 2011-01-30 11:34:03 14892 asked some very pertinant questions ...

I'm unclear what windmill on which silo you are tilting at.
Well this is kind of a revolutionary windmill.  Even in high tech circles, i doubt that they have started thinking about this just because it's hard to conceive of a system where companies do not control the silos, yet still have a function to perform. 
... General purpose information became compatible in CyberMind via MPL.
Well Cybermind type quads are the way to create "general purpose information" that is compatable across many systems and platforms.  That is what the semantic web has evolved into under the direction of the W2C.  A URL is a cross menton, cross context reference.  TBL in his wisdom saw that early on and it has been peculating for the past couple decades.
... I can speculate that what you want is one link which gets anyone to all uri related to you, & which you can edit & control access 
The link goes to a Personal Data Space ... think of it as a menton.  In that space are encryption keys giving you exclusive control of which internet agents can read from and write into the space.  All of that is being done now by a group of techies working with the W3C in an incubator group.
... but why?
People need control of their personal information so that it will be free of governmental interference and corporate trauma and manipulation.  
... What makes you think that a central control or unified system would work any better than we have right now?
Well you didn't hear me mention anything about "central control".  In fact my whole point here is to eliminate all central control points in the process.  That is the crux of the matter here. 

Look, let's say you buy a personal data space from Google, and Google starts to get evil or starts to go out of business.  If the system can be made to work the way i envision it working, you will be able to access your space through any other complying company, like for example OpenLinks.com , and be up and running with full access and no trauma to your own information.  Google can then go down or whatever and your own network and information would not be compromised in the least.  This goes way beyond the mere idea that you can download your personal information ... this preserves function ... and would not require an technical knowledge.
... What happens if something like the silly things that crop up with our DHS no fly list won't happen with what gets implimented in your own image?
The information you want to keep private is under your control.  Who you share it with is also under your control.  Who can read and write into your personal space is under your control.  Given that as an assumption, then what kind of silly things in particular are you talking about?
... What could be the unintended consequences of what you propose?
Well the main intended consequence is peoples freedom from governmental, and corporate trauma and manipulation.  That does not necessarily appear to serve the purposes of governments and corporations.  They then must survive by providing service to the people which they want with no stings attached that they don't want.  If fully implemented we enter a different world ... one in which people are King.  I'm sure the powers which be will not necessarily like that ... but then they will adapt by serving us ... or die.  I'm sure there would be unintended consequences ... but it is hard to predict them.

C says
IMHO, until you begin to tease out use cases, i.e. how it is actually going to be used by various users it is merely academic or something for someone with a lot of time & money to develop (i.e. CyberMind awesome architecture, but ahead of the potential user community).

below is a diagram example:

Seth says
C 2011-01-31 11:08:44 14892
seth 2011-01-31 10:19:03 14892
C 2011-01-31 09:50:54 14892
FYI, I am not oppposing your initiative I am just teasing out the usecases for your system & so far I haven't got much.

Well back about '85 i tried to get your attention relative to networking ... i guess you didn't see much usecases for that then either.
I guess you don't understand what usecases are. BTW, I bought modems & CompuServe etc. Why the snotty remark?

Well it wasn't meant as snotty, i just wanted to put this in some kind of historical perspective.

Actually you questions have been very useful in teasing out what this initiative actually is ... thank you indeed .

We haven't yet got to some of the more intersting questions like: is it even feasable?  and how could it happen?

Seth says
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/2011210459908692.html

Mark de LA says
.&  on topic of freedom of the Internet, some companies censor what people can put in their emails. Here is an example.

C says
Here is a guy that is touting what he calls plug servers, to decentralize the Internet. How much is real depends upon your favorite link-monkey's ability to get info.  Original source was Slashdot - here.
FreedomBoxFondation: ...

Talks and Press


...
One eek!  - anything that evades control can also aid terrorists & anarchists. Like the spreading of information through Wikileaks can backfire & the magnificance of the Internet can be frustrated by viruses & spam.

Seth says
source: M above
Here is a guy that is touting what he calls plug servers, to decentralize the Internet. How much is real depends upon your favorite link-monkey's ability to get info.  Original source was Slashdot - here.
Excellent links and very much on topic here, than you .

Note that the thrust of this item is to free and empower people ... not to facilitate terrorism, anarchy, and crime.  Fighting those are best left to the police; and the police should have reasonable "police powers"; but we should not give up our personal freedom and independence in fear of evil doers. 

Note also that control and privacy are different issues.  This key sentence in this manifesto is about control: These spaces are truly an extension of ourselves and as such should be exclusively in our control.  The thing is, if you are not an evil doer, then you do not need privacy and you can do what you do in public as your authentic identity.  Me thinks that should always be the default behavior of people on the net.  If that were true, and most everybody was being their own authentic selves on the net, the evil doers who cannot be like that would stick out like soar thumbs and be easily dealt with by effective policing.  That is the direction in which i would like to see things move. 




Seth says
MR 2011-02-17 09:24:38 14892
I dig all that. 9-11 proved that you can't always trust people to play nice! I also am sure that technology can pick up signals wherever they occur & humint can assist so that good & evil in the Universe is once again in dynamic balance.

Yep there are evil doers and we should be protected from them by government enforcing laws and preventing crime.  And the government must not be one of the evil doers and we should be able to trust it.  That should be the default situation.  There will always be risks and there will always be criminals and evil doers; but our laws and enforcement technology should be adequate to keep evil at bay so that good people are safe to go about their independent lawful business.  That is somewhat true in America today, but there is plenty of room for improvement. 

The title "Decentralizing the Internet So Big Brother Cant Find You" expresses, imho, the wrong motive for decentralization.  We want it decentralized so that people can control their own spaces and interactions, rather than those being controlled by the government of Iran, or the tycoons at IBM and  AT&T, or the geeks at Google, facebook and twitter.

Seth says
People maintaining their own plug servers is an attractive alternative and i hope it starts to work.  But those computers, however reliable, will sometimes fail and their data and software get compromised.  So i see the huge server farms forming a cloud being the backup and providing most of the facility.  What needs to happen, though, is that these farms start being run so that they are not so dependent on the diverse designs of particular companies.  Amazon's cloud is not really compatible with IBM's or with Google's.  All of these cloud services should start operating on standards so that all of them can second-source each other.  That would be a big step, and i don't think even the techie have started thinking about how to get from here to there yet.  I want to make the computer grid become more like the electrical grid ... any generator can contribute to the resource, but when it comes out of your outlet you don't even know or care who generated it.


Seth says
Between dictators like Mubarak shutting down Internet access, Kadhafi cutting facebook, and twitter attempting to close out their competition how can we, the little people, live free and unobstructed net lives? 

Seth says
For a sample of the state of the art of renting cloud computing from Amazon see this link.

Seth says
C 2011-02-18 14:19:33 14892
seth 2011-02-18 14:07:08 14892
Between dictators like Mubarak shutting down Internet access, Kadhafi cutting facebook, and twitter attempting to close out their competition how can we, the little people, live free and unobstructed net lives? 
You forgot Iran's killing demonstrators & bloggers & China's censorship. The answer (for a while yet, anyway): Stay in the US & resist the temptation to join Egypt's revolution.
 
Yes there are lots of examples.

Thing about people taking control of their own internet is that people are gaining their freedom and Independence not form nationalism just forming another nation ...  but for freedom of us individuals across all nations.  Here we are fighting nationalism, not building it as is happening in Egypt. 

I know you are against WikiLeaks, but this that is cut from the same stalk as is this Manifesto.   Talk against it if that is what you do, but know that you are talking against freedom for individuals.

Seth says
M 2011-02-19 11:37:31 14892
Hmmm.... I don't have that fear of corporations, but I do of government - go figure.  The government has guns & bombs & an army. When google execs participate in revolutions though, I begin to wonder.
This is not fear ... this is understanding what forces balance each other ...


Governmental power tends to balance Corporate power.  Somtimes those two powers collaborate to take power from individual people.  You can't just diminish the power of the government and expect that you are increasing the power of the people. 


Seth says
Tweet Art ...
source: my tweet



Proving once again, that if it is worth saying, it can be tweeted.

Seth says
C 2011-02-19 10:40:37 14892
seth 2011-02-19 10:17:54 14892
Here is an interesting use case just submitted to the WebId W3C group ...
source: issue 44

A revolutionary network in an oppressive state wants to share some of their information only with people thy have reasons to consider trustworthy. They identities are not tied to persons identifiable to the state, also theirs security system must not rely on Certificate Authorities as a government owned Telecom company owns a root certificate.

Alice a well trusted member of the network is incarcerated together with Bob and finds him to be trustworthy. Alice shall be able to include Bob in the network, i.e. make it possible to other existing members to identify Bob as a person trusted by Alice.

... This is interesting because it shows how people's freedom must stand above governments and Telecoms.
I have 2 thoughts on this. The first is like wow! What a boon that would be for a terrorist network or a drug distribution channel. The other is an observation I have had for a while that you seem to lump governments right along with big corporations - almost to a paranoid case. But in this proposal use-case you will ultimately build a large group which in turn, because of it's size will fall in with or support one of those groups who oppress. Secret societies are the stuff of paranoia & conspiracy theorists.
When people acquire a freedom, all people have it, not just the group to which you favor or belong; because that would then not be a freedom, it would be just another advantage. 

I'm glad you finally noticed that this manifesto intends for people to gain freedom from both governments and corporations.  Those are the two major forces which impend people's freedoms and/or manipulate people's behavior against their will.   There is nothing paranoid about it, that is just your twist.  Documented cases can be seen in plethera. 

Mark de LA says
It's really a size problem if you think clearly about it. An organization that grows so large that it loses contact with the individual can't possibly serve the interests of the smaller elements of which it is composed whether governmental or economic/corporate. I found repeatedly incompetants in my experience in business, corporate, military, education & all over government. I found that I, as a manager, could not supervise closely more than about a dozen people focused on one mission. I could of course appoint a sub-manager (or other officer) to distribute my effect & that's the problem with the pyramid - losing contact with the top.
 

Seth says
M 2011-02-21 08:36:27 14892
Should the government be free of Internet interference?  Today we have the Internet, an unelected bunch of people, labor unions elected by tribal interests not necessarily democratic, & special interests calling their mobs into action through protests & shows of force unrelated to the last election. It almost makes elections not final even for the span of time the elections serve. The loudest voices sway, emotions get cranked up & calm rationality is the last to prevail. 
OTOH, this article seems to enhance legislatures advocating, I guess, that iPods be in the House of Representatives. 
PopVox: ...

Members of Congress have the best search engine in the country: Congressional staff. They just have to ask, and these masters-degreed human Googles go to work finding the answer as quickly as possible. Many an academic, agency, or organization contact has been on the other end of a frantic staff call that begins with, “My boss is on the Floor and he needs this information NOW.”


... I would extend the thoughts to representatives & senators having HyPie* breakdowns of all spending bills & even the results of such things as FoxNews's taxpayer calculator!

* HyPie was a CyberMind concept of hierarchical pie charts each sliver being decomposed in a clickable pie chart of it's own completely covering the entire budget & expenses of the government.

Well popvox looks like a good idea to me ... people communicating direct to their representatives. 

I don't get your twist on it above, and i doubt that it has anything to do with the manifesto.

Seth says
M 2011-02-21 09:39:51 14892
The manifesto is one sided. With freedom comes responsibility. Without responsibility comes anarchy.
How is the manifesto one sided?

The manifesto is intended to lead into a specific technological, political, and economic change.  It does not however assume that we will be changing human nature.  If you are interested in this item, then you will want to tease out the specific technological, political, and economic changes that it is suggesting.  What are the changes?  How can they take place? What will it be like after the change?  So far you seem to be just pushing discussion in other unrelated directions. 

source: M about 2011-02-21 09:29:37
I used the twist as bait to get interest in the idea of updating the Congress with modern tools like the iPud (documented by popvox) & HyPie which I recently wanted to re-introduce. Fox's taxpayer calculation is something legislators at all level should have so that we begin to reintroduce taxation with representation to the ruling class. We are talking Internet here.
Giving congress and the people new calculation and communication tools is a great plan.  But my interest in this item is focused on a specific change and that is not it.

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-21 11:51:23 14892
M 2011-02-21 11:41:16 14892
http://cryptography.org/getpgp.htm#IS_PGP_LEGAL_ You used to be prevented from exporting to the certain countries & presumably still are.

Yep.  It is, or course, an ineffective and almost unenforceable law, hence a bad law even at that.
... absence of actual legal opinions of qualified lawyers notwithstanding. 

Seth says
M 2011-02-21 11:41:16 14892
http://cryptography.org/getpgp.htm#IS_PGP_LEGAL_ You used to be prevented from exporting to the certain countries & presumably still are.

Yep.  It is, or course, an ineffective and almost unenforceable law, hence a bad law even at that.

Seth says
M 2011-02-21 10:56:26 14892
seth 2011-02-21 10:43:21 14892
M 2011-02-21 10:09:30 14892
Freedom of the Internet is just an updated version of the 1st amendments' freedom of the press perhaps combined with freedom of assembly in a technological sense.
source: ...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

... I suspect that a technological solution is unlikely to guarantee that.


I don't know about any guarantee, but i there is technology that can (and already does) facilitate 1st amendment rights.  Frequently governments attempt to shut down such technology.  PGP is one such example. 
PGP seems to be alive & well in Symantec Corp.  I don't get the govt. shut down thingy. Would you like to have an encryption system that makes it possible for individuals to steal & circulate military secrets to anyone in the World?
Theft of military secrets is a crime.  Giving military secrets to enemies is a crime.  Governments should enforce criminal codes.  Breaking the copyrighted rights of authors is a crime. There is nothing in the manifesto that encourages crimes or discourages the apprehension of criminals.  

Strong PGP keys are illegal in the USA (last time i looked).   That law does break the manifesto, because people keeping secrets is part of the control of their communication spaces. 

Seth says
To track or not to track that is the question here.  I think there is a right to track, and also a right to opt out of being tracked.  Let us hope that the W3C can find a standard which does not over complicate the web and at the same time protects the rights of *all* parties involved.

Seth says

Mark de LA says
Somewhere along the line you messed up the default type for the rest of the comments.

Mark de LA says
Your last comment is so flawed in so many ways it is hard to begin.  Only Emperors & Kings have subjects.  We in the United States of America have citizens & a constitution which lays out how the government is structured & what limits are put upon it. One of the duties of the government is to protect the constitution , i.e. the people & land over which the constitution is specified as a way of government. In order to do that intelligence has to be gathered on foreign and domestic entities who would destroy our way of governing & way of life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness. This includes knowing about terrorists & those plotting terror, rebellion, sedition & insurrection.  Recently in the Middle East modern electronics & communication devices have been used for just those purposes. Your sympathies for such revolutions notwithstanding, there is a proper way within the U.S. Constitution to make such changes in the United States without violence, mobs & terrorism. There is no need to plot otherwise or talk in hyper-secrecy to make changes in government. The only thing that equal encryption ability &/or secrecy of information between the U.S. government & her citizens can enable is terrorism, insurrection & rebellion & hide those plotting such things.  If it is just personal secret stuff that you want kept secure - keep it to yourself within your own brain.
   Of course if you can invent a hyper-super computer that break any encryption scheme in real time then perhaps the game is over & we might, in the immortal words of Rodney King we might all "just get along with each other"!

Seth says
C 2011-03-02 08:38:41 14892
& in India there is: India poised to ban BlackBerrys: Skype, Google could be next - encryption is the problem & getting keys to government to prevent ?
Source: ...

India’s government has reiterated to BlackBerry manufacturer Research in Motion, and other companies providing encryption in their products, that they will have to be open to internal security and intelligence services if they wish to continue operating in the region.

Under this premise, Google and Skype could also be forced to shut down in the country if it cannot provide keys to its services.


... I say that the only way to prevent unauthorized access to secrets is to keep them off the Internet & wholly within your own brain! Also, don't tell anyone you haved a secret!


Governments can have secrets protected with however strong encryption they want. They, however, do not want their subjects to have that same capability.  But this manifesto would say that people can keep just as strong secrets as they want, even against their own government.  I would say that would be their human right.

Seth says
M 2011-03-03 10:59:41 14892
seth 2011-03-03 10:42:05 14892
M 2011-03-03 10:31:30 14892
seth 2011-03-03 10:27:13 14892
M 2011-03-03 08:09:25 14892
seth 2011-03-03 07:28:01 14892
You know "there is a proper way within the U.S. Constitution to make such changes in the United States without violence, mobs & terrorism" probably has some truth to it ... depending on what "such changes" are.    But there is a big difference between civil disobedience and violence, mobs and terrorism. You really seem to be stuck on characterizing what is happening in the middle east as violence, mobs and terrorism but i am not so very sure that is what is happening.  Study the text of what went down from the point of view of the participants and you will not be able to miss the strain of non-violence that permeates it.  In fact all of this violence and terrorism was not something that those revolting did, rather it was something that the regime did to the rebels. 
You must have strayed mentally back to 14873 . Anyway, try hosting a flash mob outside your place of business for a week or two & see if you don't have a different perspective. I don't think a random mob is mentally balanced - your mileage may vary. Then again, the Bill of Rights in U.S. Constitution (first amendment) specifies freedom of assembly ... to wit (the last part):
source: ... or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
... It is the rule of law & the respect for the rule of law which keeps it together. There are no rights without the rule of law. Rights are an illusion - an unwritten agreement amongst civilized people.  Gandhi didn't use Molotov cocktails.  AHIMSA

Go find out who used Molotov cocktails against who in #Jan25.  You got untruths  stuck in your head that seemingly won't come out. 
Maybe you should get them out of yours.  Just because Aljazzera claims otherwise I suspect you are just listening to more propaganda.  No proof exists, I suspect, that only government backers used Molotov cocktails.

"de nial" is a river in Egypt.
NOT DENIAL, just lack of evidence.
Well then why do you continue to suspect the rebels? 

Seth says
C 2011-03-07 07:35:41 14892
They did - didn't you watch the movie?

Yep, watched the movie.  Also saw in the movie where the British empire tired of killing so many people.  So did Mubarak.  Apparently Gaddafi has more taste for it.  That revolution is going more into a military conflict.

C says
seth 2011-03-07 08:30:10 14892
C 2011-03-07 07:35:41 14892
They did - didn't you watch the movie?

Yep, watched the movie.  Also saw in the movie where the British empire tired of killing so many people.  So did Mubarak.  Apparently Gaddafi has more taste for it.  That revolution is going more into a military conflict.
Yep, the old school boys didn't grow tired of killing - the Nazis Hitler, Stalin & Mao, Pol Pot.... up for grabs now is Iran & Libya ...


C says
They did - didn't you watch the movie?


Seth says
C 2011-03-04 13:02:00 14892
seth 2011-03-04 12:46:50 14892
source: M above
Well, if you look carefully at what I said (buried above), I said that "Gandhi didn't use Molotov cocktails". There is quite a difference between his kind of revolution which did work & freed India from British Rule -vs- mobs & rioting which cause death & destruction. Ahimsa! Anybody that claims they know for sure what is going on in the midst of a mob of rioting people is suspect; Twitter & Facebook notwithstanding.

My point is that "mobs & rioting which cause death & destruction" is not an accurate characterization of #Jan25.  That is just your spin on it.  Most of your comments are about mobs and rioting and not about #Jan25.  I think if you would study #Jan25 with an open mind you would conclude that it was quite a bit more special than just a mob rioting ... especially because it was actually effective and deposed a Tyrant.
True! I don't know what your label #jan25 means, however mobs & deaths & destruction acutally happend during the events on that date January 25, 2011.  It nets down to the old means justifies the ends &/or visa-versa.  Would Gandhi's methods have caused less suffering & paved the way for more stable democracy & better governmental solutions where needed? Now everyone including people in this country are trying to copy.  Change by mob rule? .. not my model.
 
Well here and other places, i and others have used #Jan25 to refer to the current revolution in Egypt; but more precisely #Jan25 is a twitter tag room or named search.   I suspect that if the British empire in 1942 had the same thirst for blood and violence as the Mubarak regime, then Gandhi's August Movement would have looked very much like #Jan25.  

Seth says
Related to the killswitch we have the first usage here U.S. Wins Court Order to Seize Control of Coreflood Botnet, Send Kill Signal

Mark de LA says
MR 2011-12-16 08:20:49 14892
... & now Congress is considering yet another "censorship" measure to prevent online piracy - see:
url http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.1c73b71a8b1e330524e29ceb1114fc5e.811&show_article=1


The bills are possibly: url http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-3261 which is in commerce committee in the House &/or url http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-2839 ; legislative confusion & opaqueness notwithstanding.


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-12-21 11:26:50 14892
M 2011-12-21 10:00:13 14892
Why would other countries want to censor the Internet if it were not too powerful? If a totally free internet were not something to fear for corrupt governments, why censor it?  The only real problems are viruses & attempts to sabotage which are technical issues. How did you miss all that?
Mark, i missed nothing of what you said ...  obviously some governments view the Internet as a threat to their sovereignty and the control of their populations.  Are you questioning that common knowledge ?   Congress should vote NO on SOPA, it is bad legislation ... if Congress, in their stupidity manage to pass it, the president should veto it. 

What other kind of understanding are you trying to frame here?

Sometimes a question is just a comment particularly when I put the (just asking) phrase after it. I have no agenda.  Sometimes, Seth, I am just adding to old items from the current newsfronts to update the situation. Don't try to pick a fight here there really is nothing to pick a fight about here. I think we agree. About the only point where we disagree is with Wikileaks & releasing classified information to the enemy via the Internet on the whims of an underling's conscience (or not) - but we don't need to resurrect that one here right now. Wait until private Manning gets close to public trial &/or Assange gets extradited & then we can have a go at it. (He seems to be claiming that he's gay & that may have caused him to do it or something like that.) Maybe he needs the gay support demographic. (;-)

Seth says
M 2011-12-21 09:21:52 14892
seth 2011-12-21 09:10:06 14892
I don't understand your questions or your framing here at all.

SOPA is bad legislation ... there is no way the government should have "the right" to deactivate a domain without a judical court order ... and enforcement of copyright should remain a civil action. 
There are 2 articles which you probably didn't read.  One is about deactivation & how it can spill over into politics in THIS country. The other is on the international scene where apparently other countrys want to maintain censorship of their own people.  Not to hard to figure out, eh?


I am failure with the issues, like i said it is bad legislation and not a line that we should cross.  The Internet should remain, at least in this country, free from governmental control ... except for enforcement of due process criminal proceedings.   What did you mean by "Is the Internet too Powerful?" ?  What is your answer to that question?  Mine is "NO".

Seth says
M 2011-12-24 08:56:16 14892
seth 2011-12-24 07:27:04 14892
Yes, of course, why do you ask?
Wasn't a legitimate link & wondered if it was an alien virus.

thanks for providing a good link.

Seth says

People are building networks that try to defeat the ability of governments to filter and control the Internet ... see the Tor project and watch this video.

Mark de LA says
Some consider a "nuclear option" for the Internet if SOPA is brought to a vote. While that sound pretty kewl, using selective spending to buy stuff from those who do not support SOPA is much more fascinating. If Big Entertainment owns all the stuff people want to watch there might be a stand-off.


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-12-31 11:30:28 14892
How about this option ...
Might be interesting.  China has already demonstrated the ability to shoot down a sattelite so it might not work on their Internet.

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-01-13 09:16:33 14892
M 2012-01-13 01:05:40 14892

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/01/leahy-pipa-amendment/#more-35974  - government fucking with the structure of the Internet to protect greedy media corps.
I don't know, have not had a chance to study this #sopa thingy ... but if it sucks like most Internet savvy people who i respect say, then if there is a day of protest where the web goes black, so will all my sites, including this one.
Selective spending is better than boycots.  I would recommend pressure on the moving picture & records industries.  Don't buy anything of theirs for a month & spend it on other things like going out to dinner.


Mark de LA says
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/01/white-house-blasts-internet-blacklisting-bills/
“Proposed laws must not tamper with the technical architecture of the Internet through manipulation of the Domain Name System (DNS), a foundation of Internet security,” the administration said in a statement. “Our analysis of the DNS filtering provisions in some proposed legislation suggests that they pose a real risk to cybersecurity and yet leave contraband goods and services accessible online. We must avoid legislation that drives users to dangerous, unreliable DNS servers and puts next-generation security policies, such as the deployment of DNSSEC, at risk.”
... see the official statement as well. The last paragraph seems to say that they don't yet have any alternative ideas to solve online piracy.

Mark de LA says
I still don't think you addresses fastblogit on facebook. For the inconvenience, if you do, I may just boycott speaktomecatalog.com & so the RWG continues. Do some harm to Lamar Smith - don't do harm to fbi users - it goes both ways. Focus on the TV/music/video industry who are demanding this. That will hurt them even more than an Internet boycott which is stupid imho.


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-01-17 08:29:05 14892
M 2012-01-17 08:01:05 14892
seth 2012-01-16 16:04:27 14892
M 2012-01-16 12:02:14 14892
seth 2012-01-16 11:25:03 14892
Good news ... Controversial online piracy bill shelved until consensus is found ... shucks i was looking forward to making my sites go black.
You may still get your chance!  Now the bribery begins.  There was no concensus on Obamacare & yet somehow it passed.

Here is what Wikipedia is planning to do ... not quite sure they are still planning it even though it has been tabeled ... Wikipedia blackout coming Jan. 18, says co-founder Jimmy Wales
Why would you boycott if you're sure the item is tabled.  If the boycott is unsuccessful it could send a signal to Congress & the Pres (who lately objected) that it's OK. Boycotts have a polarity which sometimes comes back & bites the boycotters in the ass. Maybe those sights that conducted the boycott will get boycotted.  (just thinking out loud)
For me, it would have to do with the power of the voice of the web ... if it is strong, then perchance this kind of legislation will never be able to gain traction. 

You seem to think that selective spending is the only tactic that should be deployed to effect change, but you have not made your point on that ... not at all.  But please do so elsewhere ... this is about the Freedom of the Internet.
As usual you addressed none of my comments & ran back to previous issues. fuck this shit!


Seth says
M 2012-01-17 08:01:05 14892
seth 2012-01-16 16:04:27 14892
M 2012-01-16 12:02:14 14892
seth 2012-01-16 11:25:03 14892
Good news ... Controversial online piracy bill shelved until consensus is found ... shucks i was looking forward to making my sites go black.
You may still get your chance!  Now the bribery begins.  There was no concensus on Obamacare & yet somehow it passed.

Here is what Wikipedia is planning to do ... not quite sure they are still planning it even though it has been tabeled ... Wikipedia blackout coming Jan. 18, says co-founder Jimmy Wales
Why would you boycott if you're sure the item is tabled.  If the boycott is unsuccessful it could send a signal to Congress & the Pres (who lately objected) that it's OK. Boycotts have a polarity which sometimes comes back & bites the boycotters in the ass. Maybe those sights that conducted the boycott will get boycotted.  (just thinking out loud)
For me, it would have to do with the power of the voice of the web ... if it is strong, then perchance this kind of legislation will never be able to gain traction. 

You seem to think that selective spending is the only tactic that should be deployed to effect change, but you have not made your point on that ... not at all.  But please do so elsewhere ... this is about the Freedom of the Internet.

Seth says
M 2012-01-17 08:38:18 14892
Are you going to boycott fastblogit? Perhaps consider also that copyright law exists. It is right that those who create a work of art or write material for a living should be able to do so without the fear that anyone can republish it on the Internet. Copyright law is due process. Adding a niche to address the new media which is easily copied & distributed should probably be done. It should never be done by cutting off a website by IP just on the basis of allegations.
I addressed that on Facebook ...
source: Seth on Facebook
Copyright law should be enforced directly against the perpetrator, in this case the person who illegally uploaded the content ... not against the media, in this case a website. How would you like it, if because some strangers started uploading copyrighted songs to fastblogit.com, the government made all of your content there go away? That punishment is draconian and produces collateral damage that goes far beyond the severity of the crime.
... so we probably agree there.
source: M ends with
The Internet should not be a lawless free-for-all. (libel & slander laws also apply)

... why not?  Slander and libel and copyright infringements and all other manner of crimes should be enforced directly against the perpetrators of the crimes ... let the land be totally free. 


Mark de LA says
Be direct! Boycott the people who come up with this shit.
Lamar Smith's top donor was $60,800 from the TV/movies/music industry according to open secrets.

Seth says
M 2012-01-18 10:48:14 14892
Maybe! I found a secret tunnel into fbi.
http://fastblogit.com/item/14892
keep looking ... there are lots of them

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-01-17 11:09:25 14892
M 2012-01-17 10:40:53 14892
seth 2012-01-17 10:31:25 14892
M 2012-01-17 10:13:45 14892
seth 2012-01-17 09:46:21 14892
If i decide to do this then fastblogit will go black for a day, also speaktomecatalog and tagtalking.  I'll leave your domains alone, you can do with them whatever you wish.  And yes this is a thing that will hurt me and mine more than it will hurt the legislators and lobbyists of this bill.  The thing learned will be about the power of people's voices on the Net.  It is just something that i can do that will add to other voices standing up for the [title manifesto: freedom of the internet] .... as such it will speak far louder than any individual action that i could take against any particular government office holder who doesn't even represent me.
I predict it will be as a fart into the wind! Money speaks louder than most other things. Especially when the bill was tabeled. 
Well of course it will be as a fart into the wind ... but lots of farts into the wind can actually be smelled.  For me this is going to be about coming in on Wednesday and seeing how much of the net is black ... and how that will make me feel in relationship to what the action is saying.  Your way of boycotting the congressman would in fact be almost totally negligible in terms of effect as well as on how it would make me feel.  The only strange thing is that you don't seem to be able to see that above your own RWG reactions.
I'm reminded of GW's often expressed comment when a person gathers a lot of WE together in one place: "What do you mean WE? ... do you have a TURD in your back pocket?"

Well collective action is much more powerful than individual action ... is that not just a fact of life?  Silencing people's collective action would have the effect of magnifying the power of the monied elite.  Not my thing ... if it is your thing ...  then lots of luck with it ... you are giving away what little political power you might actually possess. 
Nobody said anything opposing collective action. Somebody said something against the wrong collective action.  One of the best collective actions is voting. There are a lot of othe things. Show the power of the Internet to expose people who are for the bill & their moneyed supporters.  That would take a lot of people to do effectively.

Seth says
M 2012-01-17 10:40:53 14892
seth 2012-01-17 10:31:25 14892
M 2012-01-17 10:13:45 14892
seth 2012-01-17 09:46:21 14892
If i decide to do this then fastblogit will go black for a day, also speaktomecatalog and tagtalking.  I'll leave your domains alone, you can do with them whatever you wish.  And yes this is a thing that will hurt me and mine more than it will hurt the legislators and lobbyists of this bill.  The thing learned will be about the power of people's voices on the Net.  It is just something that i can do that will add to other voices standing up for the [title manifesto: freedom of the internet] .... as such it will speak far louder than any individual action that i could take against any particular government office holder who doesn't even represent me.
I predict it will be as a fart into the wind! Money speaks louder than most other things. Especially when the bill was tabeled. 
Well of course it will be as a fart into the wind ... but lots of farts into the wind can actually be smelled.  For me this is going to be about coming in on Wednesday and seeing how much of the net is black ... and how that will make me feel in relationship to what the action is saying.  Your way of boycotting the congressman would in fact be almost totally negligible in terms of effect as well as on how it would make me feel.  The only strange thing is that you don't seem to be able to see that above your own RWG reactions.
I'm reminded of GW's often expressed comment when a person gathers a lot of WE together in one place: "What do you mean WE? ... do you have a TURD in your back pocket?"

Well collective action is much more powerful than individual action ... is that not just a fact of life?  Silencing people's collective action would have the effect of magnifying the power of the monied elite.  Not my thing ... if it is your thing ...  then lots of luck with it ... you are giving away what little political power you might actually possess. 

Seth says
M 2012-01-17 11:58:13 14892
It is funny that you @S decry the inability for parties go get along & then support a show of force instead on this issue rather than coming up with some concrete solutions to the problems of Internet piracy.  Remember way back when Napster & some other services were offering a lot of pirated material.  Remember that in a few cases they began to sue mothers of children who got some pirated music. The penalties were outrageous.  The vector field of push & pull is more complex than you might imagine.

... but Mark, all of that is just your twists on what you may think i do and say ... twisted so that you can find me not-ok, whereas you must assume that you are in fact ok ... but what you describe above bears scant if any bearing on how i would describe and rationalize what i actually end up doing and saying.  

... and yes, the push & pull is complex ... i doubt that you actually appreciate how complex i think these thing are ... sometimes i am surprised at that even myself

Seth says
M 2012-01-18 08:18:10 14892
One final thought on the subject ...  Years ago when while working in Colorado I used to buy coffee online direct from Hawaii from a sight that was reliable for some of the best coffee in the world.  Their website was excellent & offered occasional great deals on estate Kona peaberry coffee. Unfortunately the proprietor decided to start putting some of his politics into the site having nothing to do with coffee.  I wrote to him but it did not phase & he lost my account permanently.  Sometimes business & politics are best kept separate.  You never really know what side your consumers are on if you don't know them personally.

It seems to me that the situation is "no pain, no gain" ... all protests, worth their salt, must needs bear a cost.  You weight the cost against the effect and make your choice.

With the sopa protest, mostly Denise did not want to suffer any cost here, but we found a way to protest anyway and ended up doing it pretty much the same way that Google did.  I can imagine that same dialogue going on inside their company between the business interests and the political interests.  Maybe some other time the issues might be a bit more black and white and we might see more effects.  What happened this time, at least, was that the issue was catapulted in front of the American people's consciousness ... way ahead of disasters and republican debates.  Mostly we have Wikipedia to thank for that.

Seth says
M 2012-01-18 13:49:36 14892
seth 2012-01-18 10:56:30 14892
M 2012-01-17 11:58:13 14892
It is funny that you @S decry the inability for parties go get along & then support a show of force instead on this issue rather than coming up with some concrete solutions to the problems of Internet piracy.  Remember way back when Napster & some other services were offering a lot of pirated material.  Remember that in a few cases they began to sue mothers of children who got some pirated music. The penalties were outrageous.  The vector field of push & pull is more complex than you might imagine.

... but Mark, all of that is just your twists on what you may think i do and say ... twisted so that you can find me not-ok, whereas you must assume that you are in fact ok ... but what you describe above bears scant if any bearing on how i would describe and rationalize what i actually end up doing and saying.  

... and yes, the push & pull is complex ... i doubt that you actually appreciate how complex i think these thing are ... sometimes i am surprised at that even myself
I think ignorance & the RWG prompted your response on this one. You made no attempt to understand what I am saying. What is happening in Congress is people showing their force on any particular issue or proposed law. The longer they show force of veto or "nays" the less they are in the problem solving state. So far all you are doing with the fart of a protest is showing force - not one hint of an attempt to solve the base problem of pirating copyrighted material (the issue the bills are addressed to).  OTOH, maybe you are part of the anti-copyright crowd & so that doesn't bother you.  Remember I brought up the complexity first!
 
With all due respect, Mark, after we factor out the RWG, there is absolutely nothing left of "what you are saying".  Solutions are being offered all over the place.  All i would be saying is that the SOPA/PIPA bill is not the way to protect copyrighted property ... the punishment is in excess of the crime and produces far too much collateral damage.  Knowing that a particular path is wrong is a separate issue from knowing what path is correct ... so i view what you are saying as just changing the subject and it still appears to me to have the sole purpose of distracting you from my point. 

If you really do want to look for solutions to pirated information, look at iTunes and how successfully they have sold music ... no government powers of enforcement necessary. 

Mark de LA says
NAH!phooey!

Mark de LA says
TWITS

"As we continue to grow internationally, we will enter countries that have different ideas about the contours of freedom of expression," the post read. "Some differ so much from our ideas that we will not be able to exist there. Others are similar, but for historical or cultural reasons, restrict certain types of content, such as France or Germany, which ban pro-Nazi comment."

Users' tweets will be blocked in a country where they are against the law, but shown in nations where they are legal. For example, a pro-Nazi tweet may be scrubbed in Germany, but would appear on the user's account if read in the U.S.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/money/twitter-announces-censor-tweets-activists-worried-article-1.1012804#ixzz1kfqKugnq
...


Seth says
MR 2012-02-03 07:45:52 14892
following up with the above by the twits:  "Google joins Twitter in support for local censorship"  google goes for local censorship.
$$$$$$ > PRINCIPLE ?????
Apparently.

Mark de LA says

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/04/20/kopimism-swedens-pirate-religion-begins-to-plunder-america
~
source: ...

A Swedish religion whose dogma centers on the belief that people should be free to copy and distribute all information—regardless of any copyright or trademarks—has made its way to the United States.

Followers of so-called "Kopimism" believe copying, sharing, and improving on knowledge, music, and other types of information is only human—the Romans remixed Greek mythology, after all, they say. In January, Kopimism—a play on the words "copy me"—was formally recognized by a Swedish government agency, raising its profile worldwide.

... a religion? Is this an effect of the freebie society?
As actual physical books begin to disappear then, what incentive will there be for authors to write?
Should the freebie society build a religion of flashmobs that just rob small & maybe large grocery stores for food & goodies because food ought to be free?

Mark de LA says
Where did the HTML on this one go wrong & make small type for all the comments?


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-03-03 10:39:37 14892
M 2011-03-03 10:27:53 14892
seth 2011-03-03 10:01:17 14892
M 2011-03-03 09:53:30 14892
Speaking of Rodney King & riots, I what that event might have been like if Twitter & Facebook had been available back 20 years ago ...
ibid: ...

By the time it was over, 55 people were dead, more than 2,000 were hurt, and property damage exceeded $1 billion.


... Was it all worth it?  The Lords of karma must have more wisdom than I!

So now, after the event ... after the somewhat successful revolution where the people rose up and overthrew a tyrant ... what are you saying about the social networking tools like the facebook page We are all Khaled Said  that were instrumental in making it happen?
Remember your item is about Freedom of the Internet not 14873.  That being said, there those today who are calling for & hoping for a #Jan25 here in this country.  The lure of the party & romance of the revolution for the youth being a driving force.   I am reminding those old enough & close to the Rodney King riots what rioting & mobs produce.  I am asking if there is not a better way having a civilized respect for the rule of law - perhaps even employing current tools of communication.  I am also speculating about how much worse the riots then might have been then given the Libyan example.

Yeah i've heard some rumblings about a #Jan25 revolution from the tea party.   It's not my revolution.  Nor can i think of the kinds of changes that i would like to see in America being ripe enough for a #Jan25 type revolution.   Seems to me that street demonstrations are a last resort where the establishment is just not listening.  I don't think that is the case in America today.
Some very post mortem comments on the trial via CNN & the final chapter for RK here:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/17/us/obit-rodney-king/index.html

Seth says

Mark de LA says
I AM ALSO AGAINST A TAX WITHOUT A BUDGET!!!

Seth says
MR 2012-08-27 11:12:09 14892
seth 2012-08-27 11:03:58 14892
MR 2012-08-26 12:13:04 14892
& then how free is anything if you can tax it? Already exists is a tax on phone service to provide telephones etc to rural areas.  This is another boondoggle of taxes which will end up somewhere else than it is currently touted for.







I don't believe that all taxes are bad.  Sometimes it is better to tax one thing and not another ... if for no other reason than it is more efficient to collect.  A sales tax like this can be very effective, easy to collect, and not easy to be avoided.  Income taxes on the other hand are hard to pay, hard to collect, and easy to avoid. 
So you would probably be for a national sales tax & get rid of all the rest.  That's essentially the flat tax proposal.  OTOH, I am against taxes collected for one purpose & then dedicated to another once the public quits watching.  The gasoline tax & the cigarette tax are good examples. Also taxes are not withdrawn once their supposed purpose is accomplished - like universal telephone access. Government just gets used to spending more money for each tax which is levied. Currently the federal treasury is so empty (~-16 trillion$$$$$$$) they are desperate: ~

Nope I don't particularly like a federal sales tax just because it is not progressive.  We certainly need to be vigilant and where politicians make tax law and then later brake the laws they made, well need to call them on it. 

Seth says
MR 2012-08-26 12:13:04 14892
& then how free is anything if you can tax it? Already exists is a tax on phone service to provide telephones etc to rural areas.  This is another boondoggle of taxes which will end up somewhere else than it is currently touted for.







I don't believe that all taxes are bad.  Sometimes it is better to tax one thing and not another ... if for no other reason than it is more efficient to collect.  A sales tax like this can be very effective, easy to collect, and not easy to be avoided.  Income taxes on the other hand are hard to pay, hard to collect, and easy to avoid. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-08-27 11:03:58 14892
MR 2012-08-26 12:13:04 14892
& then how free is anything if you can tax it? Already exists is a tax on phone service to provide telephones etc to rural areas.  This is another boondoggle of taxes which will end up somewhere else than it is currently touted for.







I don't believe that all taxes are bad.  Sometimes it is better to tax one thing and not another ... if for no other reason than it is more efficient to collect.  A sales tax like this can be very effective, easy to collect, and not easy to be avoided.  Income taxes on the other hand are hard to pay, hard to collect, and easy to avoid. 
So you would probably be for a national sales tax & get rid of all the rest.  That's essentially the flat tax proposal.  OTOH, I am against taxes collected for one purpose & then dedicated to another once the public quits watching.  The gasoline tax & the cigarette tax are good examples. Also taxes are not withdrawn once their supposed purpose is accomplished - like universal telephone access. Government just gets used to spending more money for each tax which is levied. Currently the federal treasury is so empty (~-16 trillion$$$$$$$) they are desperate: ~


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