Golden Rule & Islam - Burning Questions

According to [my: item 14830] I am concerned about theocracies in the Islamic World (they seem to be the only theocracies I know of) This does not excuse others such as the Vatican as not following the Golden Rule!
ISLAM: No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
Below, I shall uncover my reservations whether Islam actually incorporates the rule:


Tags

  1. islam questions
  2. islam
  3. golden rule
  4. ethics
  5. interfaith
  6. faith
  7. story
  8. In

Comments


C says
We are all children of different countries, but of the same created World. From the perspective of the Universe the only thing that is likely to save us from destroying our World is the Golden Rule - that's a simple, but huge epiphany.  Fighting & conquering other countries over whose God is supreme makes no sense & cannot be the revelation of any true prophet.
IMHO,
there must be out there.


Mark de LA says
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/7/03952.shtml - the etymology of Islam as Peace vs Submission & other goodies including the bias of people like Christiane Amanpour - born in Iran. See herWikipedia 

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-10 11:44:14 14915
M 2011-02-10 10:22:55 14915
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/7/03952.shtml - the etymology of Islam as Peace vs Submission & other goodies including the bias of people like Christiane Amanpour - born in Iran. See herWikipedia 
i have rarely ever read such an abuse of the use of language as your comment above and the article to which it refers.

Nor have i read a more hypocritical item at fastblogit than this one. 

In the name of the golden rule, "Do onto others as you would have others do unto you", you trash others Faith but twisting it according to your own misconceptions.  Am i then to presume that you would have others trash your Faith by twisting it according to their misconceptions of your Faith?   I think not.  Therefore this is a hypocritical item. 
Dispute, argue or explain why my perception is wrong but don't be an asshole! I don't trash a faith I question the theory that Islam reflects the Golden Rule at all. I reserve the right to question any faith including yours no matter what it is, but rationally on the merits. I am not afraid to question Islam.


Mark de LA says
BTW, I am a proponent of a particular principle called the Golden Rule which some religions prescribe.  I am trying to understand IF Islam actually prescribes it & how.
 

Seth says
source: M above
Islam means submission to God - A god would not willing submit to another; nor a man to another.  Love is the point, not submission.
This is you interpretation of what Islam means to a Muslim and more importantly your implication:  A god would not willing submit to another; nor a man to another.  I'm pretty sure that a real Muslim would find that conclusion and your interpertation have nothing to do with their faith. 

Now i do not call myself a Muslim, but i interpret "submission to God", which i do, is a way that would make your conclusion off the charts childish.  For me God is everything, all that is, including myself ... and is far more than my pea mind can comprehend.  Submission to that then becomes just acceptance of what is.  But Islam does not stop there ... also there is the comprehension that God is Great.  You could interpret that lots of ways ... for my own faith i interpert it: I love God ... or I love that which is ... or All there is is ultimately lovabel.   So, given that interpretation, given that as one's Faith, do you grock that a mocking "god would not willing submit to another" as being off topic. 

Now do you wish to submit to my interpretation of your faith in Christianity according to my own mentations ? 

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-10 13:09:38 14915
source: M above
Islam means submission to God - A god would not willing submit to another; nor a man to another.  Love is the point, not submission.
This is you interpretation of what Islam means to a Muslim and more importantly your implication:  A god would not willing submit to another; nor a man to another.  I'm pretty sure that a real Muslim would find that conclusion and your interpertation have nothing to do with their faith. 

Now i do not call myself a Muslim, but i interpret "submission to God", which i do, is a way that would make your conclusion off the charts childish.  For me God is everything, all that is, including myself ... and is far more than my pea mind can comprehend.  Submission to that then becomes just acceptance of what is.  But Islam does not stop there ... also there is the comprehension that God is Great.  You could interpret that lots of ways ... for my own faith i interpert it: I love God ... or I love that which is ... or All there is is ultimately lovabel.   So, given that interpretation, given that as one's Faith, do you grock that a mocking "god would not willing submit to another" as being off topic. 

Now do you wish to submit to my interpretation of your faith in Christianity according to my own mentations ? 
Submission to all there is is a moot point; there being no alternative. There is no mocking.Submission is not something one does willingly if he is conscious & has a choice. Leave my speculation about what God wants out of it.  I have a better time speaking for a God of Love than a God of Submission.

Seth says
M 2011-02-11 11:02:03 14915
seth 2011-02-11 10:11:58 14915
M 2011-02-10 16:24:35 14915
My faith doesn't depend upon external spin.

Is that the story you tell yourself? 
It used to depend, but not anymore.  As always I choose to listen, where appropriate to wise counsel.  But, I don't go to temple, church, mosque or other establishment edifice to structure or reassure my faith. Does yours, still depend?

I don't know what you question is trying to imply.  If you's asking if my faith depends on what other people tell me, the answer is: no it does not. 

I think my faith is a story i tell myself,  which is consistent with my experiences, and which makes me feel good about my life and my world.

Seth says
C 2011-02-14 08:48:23 14915
seth 2011-02-14 06:18:16 14915
This is actually an interesting item.  It deals with interfaith ethics.  But i'm not so very sure that you have done it right according to my story of ethics.  It seems to me that dialogue between faiths to be useful needs to be consistent with the story told by both faiths.  I doubt that Muslims would understand how the story that you tell of their faith is consistent with the story they tell to themselves.  And, the way you tell this story of Islam, is not even consistent with the way i would tell a story about another faith to myself.  Nor is it consistent with the story i tell to myself about the Golden Rule.  Nor is it consistent with my interpretation of Islam.

Can you shed some light on the ethics of what you are doing here in this item?  Sorry, on first blush, to me it seems to suck real bad because the way you are doing it  breaks my understanding of the Golden Rule itself.
Stories are just that - stories. Any resemblance to truth or hi-fi memory of actual facts & happenings are conicidental (your mileage may be different). I don't care much for stories.  Some people reduce the Golden Rule to a non-religious, more philosophical term called "ethical reciprocity" - I go well beyond that in s golden rule.    
I don't know why I should be consistent with anything you tell yourself, do you? We are independent beings! As long as you continue to use red herrings like the word "suck", I suspect the lack of consistency will continue. Islam is not above examination in a World where stuff is done in its name which is abhorrent.  Neither is any other religion. To say that only Muslims can explain themselves or question themselves is to ignore the next higher level of organization of mankind, i.e. human! Unless your mission in life is to defend Islam I would suggest you will get farther by examining some of the questions.  If a premise is faulty, explain why. If the conclusion is faulty likewise explain how.
Well everything you tell yourself is a story in the sense i am talking here.  Even if you experience something and then remember it later, that memory is here called a story ... it usually matches what actually happened in some form according to some person's interpretation ... often it diverges.  The same applies to when the events were experienced by somebody else.  If you care to understand what i am saying, please don't get too hung up on the word "story".  It is just my way here of avoiding making assumptions about articles of faith which do not in general translate well between different religions.

The way i interpert this item is as an inter-faith dialogue.  That means you, who have one set of beliefs, one set of stories you tell yourself, are talking to other people who have an entirely different set of beliefs and stories they tell themselves.  

It just seems to me that if you want useful dialogue with another faith, you can't start it by telling them what their stories are ... you can't just make up their stories out of news articles that have been floating around the media about them.  It seems to me you need to start with a honest understanding of what those stories are to them.   Apply the golden rule here!   Would you listen to Muslims making up stories about your faith ... stories that you would not assent to?   That is why i have judged this item to be hypocritical.

C says
seth 2011-02-14 06:18:16 14915
This is actually an interesting item.  It deals with interfaith ethics.  But i'm not so very sure that you have done it right according to my story of ethics.  It seems to me that dialogue between faiths to be useful needs to be consistent with the story told by both faiths.  I doubt that Muslims would understand how the story that you tell of their faith is consistent with the story they tell to themselves.  And, the way you tell this story of Islam, is not even consistent with the way i would tell a story about another faith to myself.  Nor is it consistent with the story i tell to myself about the Golden Rule.  Nor is it consistent with my interpretation of Islam.

Can you shed some light on the ethics of what you are doing here in this item?  Sorry, on first blush, to me it seems to suck real bad because the way you are doing it  breaks my understanding of the Golden Rule itself.
Stories are just that - stories. Any resemblance to truth or hi-fi memory of actual facts & happenings are conicidental (your mileage may be different). I don't care much for stories.  Some people reduce the Golden Rule to a non-religious, more philosophical term called "ethical reciprocity" - I go well beyond that in s golden rule.    
I don't know why I should be consistent with anything you tell yourself, do you? We are independent beings! As long as you continue to use red herrings like the word "suck", I suspect the lack of consistency will continue. Islam is not above examination in a World where stuff is done in its name which is abhorrent.  Neither is any other religion. To say that only Muslims can explain themselves or question themselves is to ignore the next higher level of organization of mankind, i.e. human! Unless your mission in life is to defend Islam I would suggest you will get farther by examining some of the questions.  If a premise is faulty, explain why. If the conclusion is faulty likewise explain how.

Mark de LA says
I would have a hard time submitting or belonging to a religion that does not allow you to think for yourself.  I hold consciousness & love amongst my highest values.

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-15 09:25:59 14915
M 2011-02-15 09:22:53 14915
Judgement is hypocritical. Go wash your mouth out! "... judge not lest ye be judged..."
Your reframing the intent of my item is just a story & is very low fidelity. I would like to hear from a spokesman or authority in Islam & have him justify that his faith follows the Golden Rule - not likely to happen in my lifetime!
Then what is the intent of this item? 

The sentence below my (above) stated my intent - the rest of the item are some of the questions/concerns which make me think that Islam doesn't really follow the Golden Rule.  

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-16 06:32:36 14915
M 2011-02-14 10:07:02 14915
I would have a hard time submitting or belonging to a religion that does not allow you to think for yourself.  I hold consciousness & love amongst my highest values.
I have never heard that Islam does not allow you to think for yourself.  Where did you get that?
Converting from Islam is considered a death sentence in some Islamic circles. Marrying into a faith that is not Islam brings down wrath by family patriarchs on the daughters of Islamic families & so-called honor killings.
Until the greater Islam purges these radical behaviors from their religion I will continue to believe the bolded statement above.

 "By your fruits ye shall be judged".

Seth says
M 2011-02-15 09:22:53 [item 14915]
Judgement is hypocritical. Go wash your mouth out! "... judge not lest ye be judged..."
True enough, and not going around and judging others all the time is certainly a good maxim and one that hopefully i do follow.

However, i don't think it is a good maxim to say "never judge".  Following your GR i certainly want feedback from you when you discover something that i am doing wrong and i have frequently learned much from those criticisms and have frequently changed my behavior accordingly.  So sometimes we do judge others and give them feedback accordingly and frequently that ends up being useful for improving things ... right?   The trick of course is to know when to judge and when not to judge ... but i will leave that determination for another time.

So yes i am judging this item according to the GR and have determined that it breaks the GR.  That is why i am continuing this dialogue here and i don't understand why you do not deal specifically with this complaint that i have.  Perhaps i am wrong ... perhaps there is some way in which this item does not break the GR ... if so, could you please tell me why it does not break the GR?

Just to summarize what i am grocking:
  1. This item criticizes Islam for not following GR. (true or false?)
  2. You do not understand Islam the way a true believer of Islam understands it (true or false?)
  3. Would you have someone criticize your faith if thy did not understand it the way you did? (yes or no?)
  4. GR says do unto others as you would have others do unto you. (true or false?)
  5. Are you doing unto Muslims as your would not have Muslims do unto you? (yes or no)
  6. This item is breaking the GR. (true or false?)
I don't see how 6 cannot be true.  I'm really curious.  Could you explain how 6 is not true?

Mark de LA says
Seth you have gone off topic completely.  This item is not about itself, but about whether Islam follows the Golden Rule.  I am seeking an understanding of how what comes out of Islam as human behavior like subjugating women & jihad as holy war (rather than the great work) & putting to death those who convert to some other religion is considered living within the Golden Rule.  I understand that any religion can believe it's God (or the face God shows to the people) is the greatest & therefore anything done in the name of that religion, seemingly regardless of the means - considering only its ends is justified.  That doesn't & never will work for me "by your fruits ye shall be known". Using your own logic you, not being a Muslim (unless you changed when I wasn't looking), can't judge whether my questions have the wrong presumptions or not.  Unless you are interested in answering the questions I have posed you are just deflecting - a standard practice when embarrassed or upset about questions & the illative force behind answers which expose the truth.
 
A religion (or a government for that matter) which can't stand up to close examination becomes tyranny & oppression. Thus were the early Crusades, the Roman Catholic Church in the old days & many others. Some have evolved & moved on. Freedom & Love are the best measures of a religion's worth - Power is not.

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-16 06:44:01 14915
M 2011-02-14 10:07:02 14915
I would have a hard time submitting or belonging to a religion that does not allow you to think for yourself.  I hold consciousness & love amongst my highest values.
I guess you know that Islam does not require you to "submit to a religion".  My understanding is that Islam suggests that you submit to God ... which, as you have observed above, is a no-brainer ... which submission being an attitude, not a logical decision ... think about the Zen of it ... but then that's just me talking, not a Muslim.
 ... but then why do they name their religion thus:
source: ...

Islam (Arabic: الإسلامal-’islām, pronounced [ʔislæːm]  ( listen)[note 1]) is the monotheistic religion articulated by the Qur’an, a text considered by its adherents to be the verbatim word of God (Arabic: الله‎, Allah), and by the teachings and normative example (called the Sunnah and Hadith) of Muhammad, the last Prophet of Islam. The word Islam means 'submission to God' and linguistically comes from the root word Salaam, meaning peace,[1] and an adherent of Islam is called a Muslim (the one who acquires peace by submitting to God's will).


... it is not Zen at all. I am curious why Muhammad is considered the last prophet - no more prophets?


Mark de LA says
.... Christians consider the New Testament, Jews the Bible & Muslims the Koran as the "Word of God" .  If there is a difference how will it be resolved?  They are more like a codes of behavior or ways of living. There are many challenges attendant to accepting these physical books & human interpretations as the commanding Word of Infinite Being!


Mark de LA says
What's even more interesting is that all three started out respecting the same scripture sources & somehow diverged. WTF? Is Choronzon in the mix or Just the elements in 14474 at work?

 

Mark de LA says
M 2011-02-16 07:41:18 14915
seth 2011-02-16 06:44:01 14915
M 2011-02-14 10:07:02 14915
I would have a hard time submitting or belonging to a religion that does not allow you to think for yourself.  I hold consciousness & love amongst my highest values.
I guess you know that Islam does not require you to "submit to a religion".  My understanding is that Islam suggests that you submit to God ... which, as you have observed above, is a no-brainer ... which submission being an attitude, not a logical decision ... think about the Zen of it ... but then that's just me talking, not a Muslim.
 ... but then why do they name their religion thus:
source: ...

Islam (Arabic: الإسلامal-’islām, pronounced [�"islæːm]  ( listen)[note 1]) is the monotheistic religion articulated by the Qur’an, a text considered by its adherents to be the verbatim word of God (Arabic: الله‎, Allah), and by the teachings and normative example (called the Sunnah and Hadith) of Muhammad, the last Prophet of Islam. The word Islam means 'submission to God' and linguistically comes from the root word Salaam, meaning peace,[1] and an adherent of Islam is called a Muslim (the one who acquires peace by submitting to God's will).


... it is not Zen at all. I am curious why Muhammad is considered the last prophet - no more prophets?

also in the wikipedia the etymology of Islam

Mark de LA says
Where in the Koran or the Sunnah where it says this is OK?

source: ...

An Islamic cleric has cleared the path for rebels in Syria, who are trying to oust President Bashar Assad, to rape women, so long as they’re non-Sunni.

Salafi Sheikh Yasir al-Ajlawni, who hails from Jordan but who lived in Damascus for 17 years, sent a message via YouTube: It’s a “legitimate fatwa” for Muslims waging war against Mr. Assad and trying to put in place a Sharia government to “capture and have sex with” Alawites and other non-Sunni, non-Muslim women, Human Events reports. Mr. Assad is part of the Alawites sect.

In the video, the cleric called non-Muslim women by their Arabic term, “melk al-yamin,” Human Events reports. The term is from the Koran and refers to non-Muslim sex slaves, Human Events says.

... As in Egypt & Ahghanistan & Libya & now Syria it is best to examine real carefully what kind of people you support & which side you help. We seem tol have fucked that up quite well in the last 4 years!



See Also

  1. Thought Inquiry: The nature of an individual to a group. with 268 viewings related by tag "ethics".
  2. Thought The story of being, is not being with 189 viewings related by tag "story".
  3. Thought #WillToBelieve with 168 viewings related by tag "faith".
  4. Thought Consciousness as "transactional relative relivance" reares it's ugly head for the first time here with 87 viewings related by tag "story".
  5. Thought about: Dave Isay: Everyone around you has a story the world needs to hear | TED Talk | TED.com with 69 viewings related by tag "story".
  6. Thought Value of Thought & Story with 52 viewings related by tag "story".
  7. Thought Animation sans Script with 46 viewings related by tag "story".
  8. Thought Golden Rule Dialog with 45 viewings related by tag "GoldenRule".
  9. Thought How do you know you are practicing The Golden Rule? with 38 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  10. Thought Golden Rule with 38 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  11. Thought Golden Rule with 24 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  12. Thought Do things happen for a reason? ... with 21 viewings related by tag "story".
  13. Thought Ancient Wisdoms in Politics & Ethics with 15 viewings related by tag "ethics".
  14. Thought Sequence of Encounter reply in Newsletter with 14 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  15. Thought Energy? What is it? with 8 viewings related by tag "story".
  16. Thought Action and Story with 5 viewings related by tag "story".
  17. Thought The Future does not belong to those who slander others with 4 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  18. Thought The New York Times Misrepresents The Pope's Words with 3 viewings related by tag "islam".
  19. Thought Can We Actually Invent Our Own Morality? with 3 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  20. Thought It's Hard to get Americans to Riot over a Cartoon with 3 viewings related by tag "islam".
  21. Thought Moral Equivalency & Moral Relativism with 2 viewings related by tag "ethics".
  22. Thought about: Watched it again a little while ago - more substantive than gossip & RWG! - comment 56800 with 2 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  23. Thought hmmm.... with 2 viewings related by tag "islam".
  24. Thought Judge As You Want to be Judged with 2 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  25. Thought Actually there is a solution *** with 2 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  26. Thought about: Ted Talk by Karen Armstrong via G+ with 2 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  27. Thought The Riddle of the Sphynx with 2 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  28. Thought about: the great theft: wrestling islam from the extremists with 2 viewings related by tag "islam".
  29. Thought AC on Golden Rule with 2 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  30. Thought Golden Rule with 2 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  31. Thought about: chimera (genetics) - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia with 2 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  32. Thought Short story. with 2 viewings related by tag "story".
  33. Thought Isa with 2 viewings related by tag "islam".
  34. Thought A good day for America! with 1 viewings related by tag "ethics".
  35. Thought The Earth & Gaia while Pissing with 1 viewings related by tag "faith".
  36. Thought about: Charter For Compassion with 1 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  37. Thought The Face of Radical Islam - a Movie with 1 viewings related by tag "islam".
  38. Thought A solution to most of all of our problems with 1 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  39. Thought Conventional Logic vs Faith with 1 viewings related by tag "faith".
  40. Thought Journalist Code of Ethics with 1 viewings related by tag "ethics".
  41. Thought Ethical Reciprocity with 0 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  42. Thought Chicago Style Thug Politics - NO CHANGE just Obama with 0 viewings related by tag "ethics".
  43. Thought about: Partial Birth Abortion with 0 viewings related by tag "ethics".
  44. Thought about: U.S. Seeks Silence on CIA Prisons with 0 viewings related by tag "ethics".
  45. Thought An Iraqi woman struggling with her faith with 0 viewings related by tag "faith".
  46. Thought The Shame of War In A Democracy with 0 viewings related by tag "ethics".
  47. Thought about: National Director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council Ahmed Younnis sounds off on what he believes it will take to win the War on Terror. with 0 viewings related by tag "islam".
  48. Thought What Causes War? with 0 viewings related by tag "golden rule".
  49. Thought My Ethic with Others with 0 viewings related by tag "ethics".
  50. Thought #BozoEthics with 0 viewings related by tag "ethics".