Dynamics between Individuals and Groups

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Forbes article "A Business Revolution that has warped both Wall Street and the social fabric" is an example of where GOV is suppose to balance CORP.  

Tags

  1. dynamics
  2. manifesto
  3. business
  4. big business
  5. government
  6. item 14998

Comments


Seth says
source: seth: 14892 comment 2011-02-19 11:40:37


Governmental power tends to balance Corporate power.  Somtimes those two powers collaborate to take power from individual people.  You can't just diminish the power of the government and expect that you are increasing the power of the people. 



Seth says
C 2011-02-20 06:37:41 14992
There is no balance there - the triangle collapses into the polarity between the individual & the group. You need a component like harmony & cooperation which is neither extreme individual selfishness nor dissolution into the all powerful government/oligarchy.  That is what I exposed yesterday in a 1905 lecture of Rudolf Steiner - Brotherhood & the Fight for Survival or cooperation which needs to be  brought forward to today. We once called it Common Logic "A Synergy of Individuals". Cooperation needs to be in harmonious dynamic equilibrium with the individual & the group.
  
In the body of this item i have redrawn the triangle to better demonstrate the polarities involved.  The triangle just depicts forces between identities.  The triangle does not collapse into one duality because there are forces between GOV and CORP and GOV and CORP are not the same identity.

Cooperation and harmony, as always, are Great !  Me i try to strike a harmonious dynamic equilibrium between myself as an individual and the groups in which i identify.

I've always liked the idea of "Common Logic" being an synergy of individuals.  Today that brings to mind the idea that progress is composed of the mosaic of individual deeds, begging the question:  Are there really any group deeds at all?

Mark de LA says
On your 14892 I suggested that size is the biggest problem:
M: 2011-02-19 11:55:14
2011-02-19 11:55:14
It's really a size problem if you think clearly about it. An organization that grows so large that it loses contact with the individual can't possibly serve the interests of the smaller elements of which it is composed whether governmental or economic/corporate. I found repeatedly incompetents in my experience in business, corporate, military, education & all over government. I found that I, as a manager, could not supervise closely more than about a dozen people focused on one mission. I could of course appoint a sub-manager (or other officer) to distribute my effect & that's the problem with the pyramid - losing contact with the top.
 
 ... so an effort to establish the principles of what we want in economics & government to be implemented in a bottom-up synergy of individuals, separating government from economics is my suggestion for a way to go. Start with the principles you want in place when the dust settles like work should fulfill human dignity while accounting for individual talents (or some sort of principle. Then define the use-cases that would be congruent with the same thing.  I think that's the next step for the Tea Parties & Facebook/Twitter if you could get it out of them.

Seth says
To find an examples of where a corporation repress freedoms of people for their own advantage, you will need to examine large monopolistic corporations, not mom and pop businesses.

Seth says
C 2011-02-20 07:19:23 14992
A perspective from Aleister Crowley ~ WW-II "The Next Step"
From 2010-11-17


Seth says
C 2011-02-20 10:47:13 14998
There are good/bad people; good/bad corporations; good/bad governments; & good/bad uses of money ...etc. Way back there in selective spending the economic domain gained the analogy of a vote by the individual's use of his own money for his purpose.  It is size & purpose & many other properties that determine the quality of such entities.  There is nothing inherently evil in government or corporations.  I don't see what your viewpoint contributes to solving the group vs individual thingy. Separate the economic domain from the government domain & encourage Common Logic in the economic domain (brotherhood) then you will really get somewhere.
Yep there are good and bad people, governments, and corporations ... nothing here to dispute that. 

Size does become problematic.  We seem to agree that big government is bad for individuals.  The question i raise is when does big business become bad for individuals. 

Bear in mind that this diagram came out of trying to describe the dynamics of the manifesto and, if you want to understand it, you should try to understand it in that context :
source: 14892
Our communication spaces on the internet should not only be free of government interference, but also from corporate manipulation.  These spaces are truly an extension of ourselves and as such should be exclusively in our control.  That needs to become a human right
We have several recent examples of governments interfering with our communication spaces.  But where are the examples of big businesses interfering?  I think we are so used to granting corporations an almost God given right to rig things in their favor, that we just accept their interferences thinking that there are no alternatives.   I'm just saying that maybe there are alternatives.  Thing is the alternative to be effective cut equally against government and corporations.  That means that for those alternatives to work, we should not expect them to be given to us by either government or corporations.  Rather we must develop the technology and take control of our information spaces ourselves.

Seth says
C 2011-02-20 09:33:43 14998
B&FS: ...

We see throughout nature models for the cooperation of singular beings within a totality. Take the human body; it consists of millions and trillions of self-sufficient, living beings, or cells. If you take a part of this human body and look at it under the microscope you will find that it is composed of independent beings. How do they function together? How does selflessness come about in forming the totality? None of our cells takes its separation in an egoistic manner.


... this theme suggest something like there is a group deed F3(cells,B&FS)* or look at mobs & lynchings & wars.
.
* search (F3) for the word cells in B&FS.

Yep shades of the Leviathan.

Cooperation, shared purpose, and selflessly helping each other is definitely the glue.

When we talk of empowering people and their individual deeds at the expense of government and corporations, we are not saying, as did Ayn Rand, that the individual should dominate the dynamics between individual and group.  I am certainly with you and RS in emphasizing the necessity of collective cooperation and helping each other. 

C says
I like the image & inspiration that P.2302 gives to the discussion: (cast for today)
Hex of Stillness, Limit, Resting, Crystalline; Earth of Earth, Secret of Netzach, Peace made through harmony of the conflicts Kon (1666) & (1632) where much good advice is given to achieve this goal - not a rigidity, perfection, but a living & becoming; not to look back & turn into a pillar of Salt, but to dissolve it in the Quicksilver & give the Elixir of Life to the otherwise mummified thoughts & then we can breathe perfume of immortality!
~


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-02-21 08:58:23 14998
M 2011-02-20 12:32:30 14998
... so an effort to establish the principles of what we want in economics & government to be implemented in a bottom-up synergy of individuals, separating government from economics is my suggestion for a way to go. Start with the principles you want in place when the dust settles like work should fulfill human dignity while accounting for individual talents (or some sort of principle. Then define the use-cases that would be congruent with the same thing.  I think that's the next step for the Tea Parties & Facebook/Twitter if you could get it out of them.
In the current system GOV and CORP (which stands here for big business) are integrally related.  We can rattle off quite a number of relationships off the top of our heads ...
  1. GOV taxes CORP
  2. GOV regulates CORP
  3. CORP lobbies GOV
  4. CORP supplies GOV
In general GOV tends to keep CORP in check so that it does not become too dominant but at the same time CORP lobbies GOV collaborating sometimes against the interests of PEOPLE.  When you say you want to separate "government from economics" you need to think about what specific relationships change and what problems would arrise as a consequence.  For example, what keeps CORP in check such that its greed does not grow unchecked, and how does armor get supplied to the military?
The solution here is not in combinatorics nor your red-herring of greed on both the government & corporations behalf.  That is not the real problem.  I address the real problem in my solution without identifying it specifically as a lack of threefoldness.


Seth says
M 2011-02-20 12:32:30 14998
... so an effort to establish the principles of what we want in economics & government to be implemented in a bottom-up synergy of individuals, separating government from economics is my suggestion for a way to go. Start with the principles you want in place when the dust settles like work should fulfill human dignity while accounting for individual talents (or some sort of principle. Then define the use-cases that would be congruent with the same thing.  I think that's the next step for the Tea Parties & Facebook/Twitter if you could get it out of them.
In the current system GOV and CORP (which stands here for big business) are integrally related.  We can rattle off quite a number of relationships off the top of our heads ...
  1. GOV taxes CORP
  2. GOV regulates CORP
  3. CORP lobbies GOV
  4. CORP supplies GOV
In general GOV tends to keep CORP in check so that it does not become too dominant but at the same time CORP lobbies GOV collaborating sometimes against the interests of PEOPLE.  When you say you want to separate "government from economics" you need to think about what specific relationships change and what problems would arrise as a consequence.  For example, what keeps CORP in check such that its greed does not grow unchecked, and how does armor get supplied to the military?

Seth says
M 2011-02-21 08:45:55 14998
seth 2011-02-21 08:28:28 14998
C 2011-02-20 23:14:08 14998
You forgot the very big part where the people give money to the government! (involuntarily)

Yeah, you're right.  Each one of the 6 directed relationships between the 3 entities is very complex.   To use the diagram within some context all of those relationships need to be filtered to what is important for the issues at hand.
As I see it your context is making an equivalence between the evils of Big Government with the evils of Big Corporations & saying that both are equivalent in a struggle against the individual & visa-versa. IMAO, corporations at least produce something & create products. No government ever produced anything except by taking from the individual & hiring someone else to do a job - often siphoning graft & money off the top for its own job security.
.... etc.
M, that is not the kind of discussion that i am going to have with you here.

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