Bitcoin as a solution
About: bitcoin
I ran into a slashdot on bitcoin this AM here. It triggered a lot of ideas including a possible solution to a transition from the current monetary system to a system modeled after the Threefold Commonwealth.
First, I wish to examine what we have now:
- We have a multi-dip recession with currencies & governments becoming insolvent at all levels. Debt in the trillions for USA, larger than the GDP of a single year. In general debt is being exchanged for goods & taxes which loose their value long before the debt is paid off.
- We have unions for the public private sector demanding from employers & taxpayers privileges out of proportion to their value to the employers & taxpayers under threat of strikes & riots.
- CAUGHT ON TAPE: Former SEIU Official Reveals Secret Plan To Destroy JP Morgan, Crash The Stock Market, And Redistribute Wealth In America
see Rush (my ref) & Business Insider. (Media ignores it) - We have large scale unemployment ~9+ %
- We have a long war going in Afghanistan. Middle East turmoil & NKorea run by an idiot.
- We have money, unions, & political parties intricately tied in to the economy & corruption with an ever growing BIG GOVERNMENT.
- crony capitalism
- An as yet to be audited Federal Reserve (they buy Federal debt)
My vision is devolving government at all levels by substituting private sector solutions. My vision is migrating the distribution of goods & serves independent of a federal reserve system of governments printing money. My vision moves toward an independent economic system from politics, law & education. Bit by bit individuals, groups & "synergies of individuals" begin to exchange goods & services for their needs & later wants including food, clothing & shelter independent of the current monetary system. Someone will have to research how governments currently tax "in kind" bartering systems. Some ideas to begin with (assuming that bitcoin is a viable idea)
- Unions are replaced by Synergies of Individuals (Guilds) that can negotiate with each other to find a balance of value for value. The Synergies will begin to act like to the old fashioned guilds of the RS era.
- A different coin for different commodities or different sectors.
- Medicine & health care is on a different coin from the rest.
- Some coins expire faster than others. This would insure that hoarding & banking & speculation would be minimized
- No exchange between dollars and bitcoins.
- Some manufacturing & dollar based systems will begin to fade as those needs & even wants can be satisfied within the coin system.
Tags
- private money
- cybercash
- digital currency
- selective spending
- bitcoins
- blockchain
- assange
Comments
Mark de LA says
seth 2011-03-24 08:32:15 15095
i spent about half hour reading about bitcoin on my pod and still can't figure it out. Is it a real system that is running now? How, for example, could we use it today to exchange something of value? Who possesses the coins now and how do we get any to use for our own purposes?
i spent about half hour reading about bitcoin on my pod and still can't figure it out. Is it a real system that is running now? How, for example, could we use it today to exchange something of value? Who possesses the coins now and how do we get any to use for our own purposes?Yep, I'm still working on that myself. It may be a sleevejob or virus generator. OTOH, it may be just a model for currency like gold was for money & value. If you think about it currency is something that maintains a way to trade things like chickens for toilet paper. As long as you can count on the relative values being constant or predictable then you don't have to go somewhere and trade animals for rolls. Our $-based system is in a mess yielding inflation, depression & other stuff connected to politics.
Seth says
M 2011-03-24 13:01:59 15095
seth 2011-03-24 09:35:00 15095
Well for a long time i have though that banking (and the money it creates) needs to be nothing but a computer process ... it does not need to be a excuse to suck value out of the community. It should not be a profit center. If that is what this is in persuit of, then i am with it. I expected that bitcoin is attempting to implement that. But they need to be able to project that into the world with one simple paragraph and a place to to identify one's self, a search for other goods and services available with bitcoins, and a way into the system. So far i don't see any of that.
Banks originated because gold miners didn't want to carry around sacks of gold dust or coins & wanted a safe place to store gold. The pharmacies (had scales & safe place) found out that there was more gold in their care than people would get all at once so they agreed with the owners to lend some out for a profit. There is nothing nefarious in that basic premise. [snipped your comments not related to my train of though]
... right 
. There is nothing nefarious about lending money. In fact it is a vital function. Someone who owns potential value, lends it to someone else, with the purpose in mind to make better use of it. Whatever monetary system we end up with should preserve that vital function.
What is nefarious, however, is the current banking system which is NOT lending money ... rather they are sucking their profit out of the community by speculating on and manipulating contrived financial instruments. There have been lots of materials on that published lately and elsewhere i have already pointed to some of them, but if you intend to open your mind on the matter i will go provide better one.
. There is nothing nefarious about lending money. In fact it is a vital function. Someone who owns potential value, lends it to someone else, with the purpose in mind to make better use of it. Whatever monetary system we end up with should preserve that vital function.What is nefarious, however, is the current banking system which is NOT lending money ... rather they are sucking their profit out of the community by speculating on and manipulating contrived financial instruments. There have been lots of materials on that published lately and elsewhere i have already pointed to some of them, but if you intend to open your mind on the matter i will go provide better one.
Mark de LA says
Here is a video on bitcoins. The only thing I object to is the exchanges $/bitcoins, but that is probably unavoidable at this level of experience.
Mark de LA says
Mark de LA says
Mark de LA says
seth 2011-03-24 14:30:13 15095
MR 2011-03-24 14:20:00 15095
I'm fairly familiar with the whole mortgage boondoggle where congress forced banks to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay for same; being perpetrated by the likes of Barney Frank, Fannie-May & Freddie Mac, the federal reserve, congress & community organizers. Adding to that insult were the new regulations on financial institutions that lets the government lend to banks at a 0% effective rate & yet they can keep it on the books just like income. No need to rehash that. We've both written about it. Financial institutions had to invent insurance rackets & instruments to protect against defaults (CDS), etc. Unfortunately, like the social security system & the grim reaper the bill eventually comes due anyway.
The point is that there is something drastically wrong with the banking system. The government is in the pockets of the people who are profiting by the travesty. That travesty must be fixed with any overhaul of the money system.
I guess you are agreeing with me in the last bullet of the first section of this item.
Mark de LA says
seth 2011-03-26 08:57:20 15095
C 2011-03-26 08:19:31 15095
Is there a way to store information other than "coins" this way so that there is a genuine cloud of non centralized information ?
How do you distinguish between "a genuine cloud of non centralized information" and the www ?
I'm thinking of something more like a fractal or a hologram than just the name of a network of servers. How do you visualize the cloud? I might think of it as an n-dimensional, n-pole lattice but in reality this comment was just an immature idea I woke up with this AM.
Seth says
MR 2011-03-24 17:53:40 15095
seth 2011-03-24 14:30:13 15095
MR 2011-03-24 14:20:00 15095
I'm fairly familiar with the whole mortgage boondoggle where congress forced banks to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay for same; being perpetrated by the likes of Barney Frank, Fannie-May & Freddie Mac, the federal reserve, congress & community organizers. Adding to that insult were the new regulations on financial institutions that lets the government lend to banks at a 0% effective rate & yet they can keep it on the books just like income. No need to rehash that. We've both written about it. Financial institutions had to invent insurance rackets & instruments to protect against defaults (CDS), etc. Unfortunately, like the social security system & the grim reaper the bill eventually comes due anyway.
The point is that there is something drastically wrong with the banking system. The government is in the pockets of the people who are profiting by the travesty. That travesty must be fixed with any overhaul of the money system.
I guess you are agreeing with me in the last bullet of the first section of this item.
Not really: "We have money, unions, & political parties intricately tied in to
the economy & corruption with an ever growing BIG GOVERNMENT" sounds to me more like a conservative Republican platform slogan, than a useful characterization of what we have now informing us of how to fix it.
Seth says
M 2011-03-26 09:28:33 15095
Do you mean a file sharing system like Napster or WikiLeaks where the named information resides all over the place?
seth 2011-03-26 08:57:20 15095
C 2011-03-26 08:19:31 15095
Is there a way to store information other than "coins" this way so that there is a genuine cloud of non centralized information ?
How do you distinguish between "a genuine cloud of non centralized information" and the www ?
I'm thinking of something more like a fractal or a hologram than just the name of a network of servers. How do you visualize the cloud? I might think of it as an n-dimensional, n-pole lattice but in reality this comment was just an immature idea I woke up with this AM.
Mark de LA says
What part of what I said is not true? We now have the largest government in history. We have unions intricately tied to government (listen to Obama's campaign speech before the SEIU). We have the SEIU protesting in Wisconsin backed by Obama's website. In the original quote I didn't mention any particular party - both of the major two do it. One thing I didn't mention is the role the Federal Reserve plays. You may want to read either Griffin's The Creature from Jekyl Island or Ron Paul's End the Fed for background. With money manipulation politics is a different ball game than you probably thought it was. Threefoldness is the opposite from money & politics in bed together.
seth 2011-03-26 09:51:17 15095 [snip]
Not really: "We have money, unions, & political parties intricately tied in to the economy & corruption with an ever growing BIG GOVERNMENT" sounds to me more like a conservative Republican platform slogan, than a useful characterization of what we have now informing us of how to fix it.
That's what a liberal would say.
What part of what I said is not true? We now have the largest government in history. We have unions intricately tied to government (listen to Obama's campaign speech before the SEIU). We have the SEIU protesting in Wisconsin backed by Obama's website. In the original quote I didn't mention any particular party - both of the major two do it. One thing I didn't mention is the role the Federal Reserve plays. You may want to read either Griffin's The Creature from Jekyl Island or Ron Paul's End the Fed for background. With money manipulation politics is a different ball game than you probably thought it was. Threefoldness is the opposite from money & politics in bed together.
Mark de LA says
What we need is an economic system which brings goods & services to people who need them & want them. That system must be transparent, open market, & free from any coersion by forces which are not economic.
...
economy (n.) 
1530s, "household management," from L. oeconomia, from Gk. oikonomia "household management, thrift," from oikonomos "manager, steward," from oikos "house" (cognate with L. vicus "district," vicinus "near;" O.E. wic "dwelling, village;" see villa) + nomos "managing," from nemein "manage" (see numismatics). The sense of "wealth and resources of a country" (short for political economy) is from 1650s.
1530s, "household management," from L. oeconomia, from Gk. oikonomia "household management, thrift," from oikonomos "manager, steward," from oikos "house" (cognate with L. vicus "district," vicinus "near;" O.E. wic "dwelling, village;" see villa) + nomos "managing," from nemein "manage" (see numismatics). The sense of "wealth and resources of a country" (short for political economy) is from 1650s....
Selective spending should be the regulator.
...
People who make it all work, provide the services, make the goods, deliver them to the market & consume according to their needs & wants should be free to do so within the overall scheme of a dynamic equilibrium whose parts are equilibrated by negotiation, common sense, provision for all & the common good. Health care, the arts & education, & legal matters should be entirely different domains from the economic.
...
Labor & capital should never be equilbrated. A person's time is either useless or priceless since it is finite. An amount of capital (currency, commodities or machinery) are trancendental in value. All of that should be managed from the bottom-up for synergy rather than polarity & individual gain. What in the American Dream is the desire to work hard & aquire stuff can be supplied by other endeavors which are freed up by synergy & self-worth provided by no longer having to exchange your time as a commodity. Current unions exaggerate the commoditizing of your time & labor. We want more of the guild/synergy of individuals form of collectivizing where negotiation between people of like skills acknowledge that others with different skills & productivity are part of the mix.
...
TBC 
Mark de LA says
.
seth 2011-03-28 10:23:35 15095
source: M above
An amount of capital (currency, commodities or machinery) are trancendental in value.
An amount of capital (currency, commodities or machinery) are trancendental in value.
What does that mean?
You've heard of capital depriciation, eh? In real life, machinery & electronics gets superceeded & improved while the old ones end up as junk. Money, encouraged by credit depreciates as well over time. The 75¢ an hour I was paid at my first job is now $8 for unskilled labor. The purchasing power of currency depreciates over time. Nothing is static. Oil, a commodity changes its value on a supply/demand curve as well as politics, wars & speculation
.
Seth says
C 2011-03-28 11:14:14 15095
.
seth 2011-03-28 10:23:35 15095
source: M above
An amount of capital (currency, commodities or machinery) are trancendental in value.
An amount of capital (currency, commodities or machinery) are trancendental in value.
What does that mean?
You've heard of capital depriciation, eh? In real life, machinery & electronics gets superceeded & improved while the old ones end up as junk. Money, encouraged by credit depreciates as well over time. The 75¢ an hour I was paid at my first job is now $8 for unskilled labor. The purchasing power of currency depreciates over time. Nothing is static. Oil, a commodity changes its value on a supply/demand curve as well as politics, wars & speculation
. Ok there is inflation and deflation of currency and , there is appreciation and depreciation of capitol. Those valuations fluctuate in the marketplace.
You say "All of that should be managed from the bottom-up for synergy rather than polarity & individual gain." Well it seems to me that the market, when left alone, does manage all of that from the bottom-up; but it is usually for "individual gain". Do you propose taking the profit motive out of out economic system? What do you propose putting in it's place?
You say "All of that should be managed from the bottom-up for synergy rather than polarity & individual gain." Well it seems to me that the market, when left alone, does manage all of that from the bottom-up; but it is usually for "individual gain". Do you propose taking the profit motive out of out economic system? What do you propose putting in it's place?
Seth says
Well that certainly is true. Getting more people to think like that, or even be in an environment where they can think like that, is the problem. Most people, if they even have jobs, will tell you that they hate their jobs ... they can't think like that. Feeling pride towards what you do, and getting paid to do it, are almost contradictory in our culture now. How do we get from here to there?
source: M above
As long as I know, for sure, that my work is needed, useful, valued & producing things for others in a synergy where everyone is prospers because of my part of the synergy - I don't need individual profit.
As long as I know, for sure, that my work is needed, useful, valued & producing things for others in a synergy where everyone is prospers because of my part of the synergy - I don't need individual profit.
Well that certainly is true. Getting more people to think like that, or even be in an environment where they can think like that, is the problem. Most people, if they even have jobs, will tell you that they hate their jobs ... they can't think like that. Feeling pride towards what you do, and getting paid to do it, are almost contradictory in our culture now. How do we get from here to there?
Mark de LA says
seth 2011-03-29 05:18:04 15095
Well that certainly is true. Getting more people to think like that, or even be in an environment where they can think like that, is the problem. Most people, if they even have jobs, will tell you that they hate their jobs ... they can't think like that. Feeling pride towards what you do, and getting paid to do it, are almost contradictory in our culture now. How do we get from here to there?
source: M above
As long as I know, for sure, that my work is needed, useful, valued & producing things for others in a synergy where everyone is prospers because of my part of the synergy - I don't need individual profit.
As long as I know, for sure, that my work is needed, useful, valued & producing things for others in a synergy where everyone is prospers because of my part of the synergy - I don't need individual profit.
Well that certainly is true. Getting more people to think like that, or even be in an environment where they can think like that, is the problem. Most people, if they even have jobs, will tell you that they hate their jobs ... they can't think like that. Feeling pride towards what you do, and getting paid to do it, are almost contradictory in our culture now. How do we get from here to there? One possible idea is to use physical metaphors like those in the community breadmaking article in Lilipoh or here in the Warren Lee Cohen website. Probably not useful on a large scale of adults, but possibly something for schools. There were moments in the days at PJ2.
Mark de LA says
Some other clues from a LILIPOH ISSUE 61 VOL. 15 , Fall 2010 at http://rsfsocialfinance.org/ & also their Reimagine Money BLog.
Seth says
C 2011-03-30 17:32:01 15095
Think of the number of people unemployed or not working & could as a workforce of people who be of use as a test bed for the beginnings of threfoldness!
Slurp!
Yeah i always wondered about that slurp indeed.
slurp indeed.
Mark de LA says
seth 2011-03-31 04:47:48 15095
C 2011-03-30 17:32:01 15095
Think of the number of people unemployed or not working & could as a workforce of people who be of use as a test bed for the beginnings of threfoldness!
Slurp!
Yeah i always wondered about that slurp indeed.
slurp indeed. Unslurp 
- more context from Drudge today:
- more context from Drudge today:
Seth says
Yep, our government thinks it has the exclusive right to make the
currency. Deviating from that in any serious manner will probably require a
revolution of sorts.
Mark de LA says
Sarah Hearn's article in LILIPOH is great. Some of the references she provides are:
-
http://chimgauer.info <- time expiring money
Mark de LA says
I also like the LILIPOH article on community bread making in issue 62 p. 46 by Warren Lee Cohen here: http://www.warrenleecohen.com/
Here is a good idea on Community Supported Agriculture: http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/04/community-supported_agricultur.html as part of the overall lifestyle change to getting closer to your food.
I also like the LILIPOH article on community bread making in issue 62 p. 46 by Warren Lee Cohen here: http://www.warrenleecohen.com/
Mark de LA says
John Stossel suggests that private currencies is one way to curb inflation. Two other ways are to get rid of credit as we know it & insurance & maybe runaway TV advertizing of crap.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/03/01/stossel-dollars and http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/1484348139001 for the segment. He mentions BitCoin.
Mark de LA says
Here is some analysis of Bitcoin from the point of view of European Central Bank:
source: ... Lastly, on this second aspect, when virtual money is created outside the
realm of the central bank and virtual credit can be extended, this may
have implications for the way interest rate decisions by the central
bank are transmitted through the economy and the central bank’s control
over money and credit developments could become less effective.
...
Obviously these are not a risks to people like you and me, but they are risks to central bankers, state actors and others who derive their income from forcibly imposed central bank monopoly money interest rate manipulation. The paragraphs are rather startling in their explicitness. They are essentially saying that if enough people transacted in Bitcoins instead of dollars or euros, the central banks would lose control over their ability to manipulate interest rates. Indeed, the entire point of Bitcoin is to provide a currency that cannot be manipulated to suit the whims of commercial banks, central bankers and politicians.
...
Obviously these are not a risks to people like you and me, but they are risks to central bankers, state actors and others who derive their income from forcibly imposed central bank monopoly money interest rate manipulation. The paragraphs are rather startling in their explicitness. They are essentially saying that if enough people transacted in Bitcoins instead of dollars or euros, the central banks would lose control over their ability to manipulate interest rates. Indeed, the entire point of Bitcoin is to provide a currency that cannot be manipulated to suit the whims of commercial banks, central bankers and politicians.
... Yeah! that's the point!
Mark de LA says
... & then there is this real coin piece of bull:
source: ...
Enter the platinum coins. Thanks to an odd loophole in current law, the U.S. Treasury is technically allowed to mint as many coins made of platinum as it wants and can assign them whatever value it pleases.
Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would produce (say) a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve. The Fed then moves this money into Treasury’s accounts. And just like that, Treasury suddenly has an extra $2 trillion to pay off its obligations for the next two years — without needing to issue new debt. The ceiling is no longer an issue.
...
Seth says
M 2012-12-09 09:07:06 15095
... & then there is this real coin piece of bull:
source: ...
Enter the platinum coins. Thanks to an odd loophole in current law, the U.S. Treasury is technically allowed to mint as many coins made of platinum as it wants and can assign them whatever value it pleases.
Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would produce (say) a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve. The Fed then moves this money into Treasury’s accounts. And just like that, Treasury suddenly has an extra $2 trillion to pay off its obligations for the next two years �" without needing to issue new debt. The ceiling is no longer an issue.
...
it seems to me that would take quite a stretch of creative bookkeeping ... what does the treasury put on the left side of the ledger to balance what it put on the right?
Mark de LA says
seth 2012-12-10 08:29:20 15095
M 2012-12-09 09:07:06 15095
... & then there is this real coin piece of bull:
source: ...
Enter the platinum coins. Thanks to an odd loophole in current law, the U.S. Treasury is technically allowed to mint as many coins made of platinum as it wants and can assign them whatever value it pleases.
Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would produce (say) a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve. The Fed then moves this money into Treasury’s accounts. And just like that, Treasury suddenly has an extra $2 trillion to pay off its obligations for the next two years �" without needing to issue new debt. The ceiling is no longer an issue.
...
it seems to me that would take quite a stretch of creative bookkeeping ... what does the treasury put on the left side of the ledger to balance what it put on the right?
Well, the treasury is already using creative bookkeeping by having the Federal Reserve buy up the USA debt (quantitative easing I think they call it). Presumably they buy platinum from some place and create some coins at a denomination they choose (i.e. one trillion dollar coins) & deposit them. Platinum is not currently a legal tender, just a commodity.
Seth says
Well my impression is that they can buy $100 of platnum and mint two coins with it, and just declare that each coin is worth $1,000,000,000,000. Me, i think that would unbalance their books ... or stretch the credulity of double entry bookkeeping ... but some accountants apparently think that it is doable.
M 2012-12-10 08:43:27 15095
seth 2012-12-10 08:29:20 15095
M 2012-12-09 09:07:06 15095
... & then there is this real coin piece of bull:
source: ...
Enter the platinum coins. Thanks to an odd loophole in current law, the U.S. Treasury is technically allowed to mint as many coins made of platinum as it wants and can assign them whatever value it pleases.
Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would produce (say) a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve. The Fed then moves this money into Treasury’s accounts. And just like that, Treasury suddenly has an extra $2 trillion to pay off its obligations for the next two years �" without needing to issue new debt. The ceiling is no longer an issue.
...
it seems to me that would take quite a stretch of creative bookkeeping ... what does the treasury put on the left side of the ledger to balance what it put on the right?
Well, the treasury is already using creative bookkeeping by having the Federal Reserve buy up the USA debt (quantitative easing I think they call it). Presumably they buy platinum from some place and create some coins at a denomination they choose (i.e. one trillion dollar coins) & deposit them. Platinum is not currently a legal tender, just a commodity.
Well my impression is that they can buy $100 of platnum and mint two coins with it, and just declare that each coin is worth $1,000,000,000,000. Me, i think that would unbalance their books ... or stretch the credulity of double entry bookkeeping ... but some accountants apparently think that it is doable.
Mark de LA says
seth 2012-12-10 09:30:02 15095
Well my impression is that they can buy $100 of platnum and mint two coins with it, and just declare that each coin is worth $1,000,000,000,000. Me, i think that would unbalance their books ... or stretch the credulity of double entry bookkeeping ... but some accountants apparently think that it is doable.
M 2012-12-10 08:43:27 15095
seth 2012-12-10 08:29:20 15095
M 2012-12-09 09:07:06 15095
... & then there is this real coin piece of bull:
source: ...
Enter the platinum coins. Thanks to an odd loophole in current law, the U.S. Treasury is technically allowed to mint as many coins made of platinum as it wants and can assign them whatever value it pleases.
Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would produce (say) a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve. The Fed then moves this money into Treasury’s accounts. And just like that, Treasury suddenly has an extra $2 trillion to pay off its obligations for the next two years �" without needing to issue new debt. The ceiling is no longer an issue.
...
it seems to me that would take quite a stretch of creative bookkeeping ... what does the treasury put on the left side of the ledger to balance what it put on the right?
Well, the treasury is already using creative bookkeeping by having the Federal Reserve buy up the USA debt (quantitative easing I think they call it). Presumably they buy platinum from some place and create some coins at a denomination they choose (i.e. one trillion dollar coins) & deposit them. Platinum is not currently a legal tender, just a commodity.
Well my impression is that they can buy $100 of platnum and mint two coins with it, and just declare that each coin is worth $1,000,000,000,000. Me, i think that would unbalance their books ... or stretch the credulity of double entry bookkeeping ... but some accountants apparently think that it is doable.
For a long time the US Mint has been minting coins whose face value is more/less than the commodity value of the content of their metals. Check out: $50 gold piece
Mark de LA says
Bitcoin is mentioned in considering the bankruptcy of Cyprus : http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/03/24/cyprus-goes-cashless-the-hard-way/
Mark de LA says
With Cyprus they are looking for a currency free of manipulation by government:
source: ...
They won't make a sound no matter how many of them you try to toss in a bucket, and you can't pitch them in a fountain and wish for good luck. But make no mistake, bitcoins are getting big.
The online alternative currency, previously little more than a curiosity in financial markets since its 2009 inception, has zoomed in trading value since the Cyprus banking crisis erupted two weeks ago.
With fears spreading that even insured deposits might not be safe in similar nations hit by banking crises, those looking for a haven to store their wealth have fled to the complicated world of digital cash.
... What is not clear is what a country with a supercomputer or one of those mining devices could do to the currency nor what Internet outages & cyberattacks could do. Separate network?
What is not clear is what a country with a supercomputer or one of those mining devices could do to the currency nor what Internet outages & cyberattacks could do. Separate network?
Mark de LA says
seth 2013-03-28 09:09:14 15095
something doesn't feel right here in that if you can create them yourself by mining them with computer time, then people who own or have access to giant computer could create money out of thin air ... how is that complaint answered in the bitcoin community?
MR 2013-03-28 08:58:11 15095
seth 2013-03-28 08:46:02 15095
hmmm ... i wonder if bitcoins actually are a reliable currency that cannot be manipulated ? if so, and a real country decides to have it back it's currency, then me thinks that it could become the currency of choice for all off shore investments. Is that what is being proposed here?
What is that "maxim" ... good money runs off bad money?
What is that "maxim" ... good money runs off bad money?
Well so far it has to interface with real money to be used outside of the bitcoin system. We will watch Cyprus & see what happens. You have to buy them or mine them with computer time or purchase them in markets.
something doesn't feel right here in that if you can create them yourself by mining them with computer time, then people who own or have access to giant computer could create money out of thin air ... how is that complaint answered in the bitcoin community?
It is a time & computer intensive process not worth it for the average computer user. There are even mining machines out there (which use GPUs). Commerce is a better way to get them just like counterfeit of real currencies is not a good option.
Mark de LA says
seth 2013-03-28 08:46:02 15095
hmmm ... i wonder if bitcoins actually are a reliable currency that cannot be manipulated ? if so, and a real country decides to have it back it's currency, then me thinks that it could become the currency of choice for all off shore investments. Is that what is being proposed here?
What is that "maxim" ... good money runs off bad money?
What is that "maxim" ... good money runs off bad money?
Well so far it has to interface with real money to be used outside of the bitcoin system. We will watch Cyprus & see what happens. You have to buy them or mine them with computer time or purchase them in markets.
Seth says
something doesn't feel right here in that if you can create them yourself by mining them with computer time, then people who own or have access to giant computer could create money out of thin air ... how is that complaint answered in the bitcoin community?
MR 2013-03-28 08:58:11 15095
seth 2013-03-28 08:46:02 15095
hmmm ... i wonder if bitcoins actually are a reliable currency that cannot be manipulated ? if so, and a real country decides to have it back it's currency, then me thinks that it could become the currency of choice for all off shore investments. Is that what is being proposed here?
What is that "maxim" ... good money runs off bad money?
What is that "maxim" ... good money runs off bad money?
Well so far it has to interface with real money to be used outside of the bitcoin system. We will watch Cyprus & see what happens. You have to buy them or mine them with computer time or purchase them in markets.
something doesn't feel right here in that if you can create them yourself by mining them with computer time, then people who own or have access to giant computer could create money out of thin air ... how is that complaint answered in the bitcoin community?
Mark de LA says
Interesting current FoxNews article: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/03/29/digital-currency-bitcoin-surpasses-20-national-currencies-in-value/
The Wikipedia has some implications here including theft at the exchanges, regulation & taxation.
The Wikipedia has some implications here including theft at the exchanges, regulation & taxation.
Mark de LA says
seth 2013-03-28 09:09:14 15095
something doesn't feel right here in that if you can create them yourself by mining them with computer time, then people who own or have access to giant computer could create money out of thin air ... how is that complaint answered in the bitcoin community?
MR 2013-03-28 08:58:11 15095
seth 2013-03-28 08:46:02 15095
hmmm ... i wonder if bitcoins actually are a reliable currency that cannot be manipulated ? if so, and a real country decides to have it back it's currency, then me thinks that it could become the currency of choice for all off shore investments. Is that what is being proposed here?
What is that "maxim" ... good money runs off bad money?
What is that "maxim" ... good money runs off bad money?
Well so far it has to interface with real money to be used outside of the bitcoin system. We will watch Cyprus & see what happens. You have to buy them or mine them with computer time or purchase them in markets.
something doesn't feel right here in that if you can create them yourself by mining them with computer time, then people who own or have access to giant computer could create money out of thin air ... how is that complaint answered in the bitcoin community?
That is Gresham's Law - "When a government compulsorily overvalues one type of money and undervalues another, the undervalued money will leave the country or disappear from circulation into hoards, while the overvalued money will flood into circulation."[1] It is commonly stated as: "Bad money drives out good", but is more accurately stated: "Bad money drives out good if their exchange rate is set by law."
Mark de LA says
Bloomberg Business Week: ... Having been through one or two bubbles, I’ve learned that people can
believe exactly what they want to believe. That’s one of the privileges
of being a human with money to spend. When you compound utopian
wishfulness with the anxiety of being left behind, you’ll have a bubble.
Then again, we may be at the forefront of the coming Bitcoin
revolution. There’s no way to be sure.
...
Where you see Bitcoins in action you find a weird and heady mix of speculative angst, a fear of being left behind, and people who appear to have lost faith in institutions, who feel most left behind. These are people who’ll trade in purely arbitrary tokens, willing to forgo the comfort of banking systems for the weight of mathematics and the Internet behind it.
...
Where you see Bitcoins in action you find a weird and heady mix of speculative angst, a fear of being left behind, and people who appear to have lost faith in institutions, who feel most left behind. These are people who’ll trade in purely arbitrary tokens, willing to forgo the comfort of banking systems for the weight of mathematics and the Internet behind it.
...
ibid: ... It’s a supercomputer-size chore to counterfeit. The key thing to
understand is that there’s no bank, no Federal Reserve, in the middle.
It’s not unlike an exchange-traded fund (for example, FORX,
from Pimco)—a mix of non-U.S. currencies—designed as a hedge against
the dollar. Bitcoin is a hedge against the entire global currency
system. And no exchange is needed, unless you want to convert your
Bitcoin into an actual hard currency.
...
Mark de LA says
M 2013-04-02 09:51:05 15095
thanks
thanks
Their own wiki is here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Introduction Their PDF of the technology is here: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
If a supercomputer can find the next extremely large prime number why can't it break the Bitcoin system. Something as large as a country's currency or perhaps the world's might be worth it to anyone, including China, to break.
I still like the idea if it scales & doesn't turn into a currency bubble.
If a supercomputer can find the next extremely large prime number why can't it break the Bitcoin system. Something as large as a country's currency or perhaps the world's might be worth it to anyone, including China, to break.
I still like the idea if it scales & doesn't turn into a currency bubble.
China, Russia & Brazil all want their currency to be the World's reserve currency: http://rt.com/business/eu-banking-crisis-imf-euro-brics-141/
which is sufficient motivation to muck with Bitcoin!
which is sufficient motivation to muck with Bitcoin!
Mark de LA says
Funny eh? What can you buy with BitCoins?
Mark de LA says
source: ...
But because bitcoin is a currency whose value is based on the psychology of human beings, it is subject to booms and busts. Bitcoin has enjoyed a meteoric rise from roughly $20 per bitcoin in February to almost $200 per bitcoin today. (Yes, nearly a 1000% return in less than two months.) This has happened for several reasons, but primarily because the Cypriot bank thefts taught people that “money in the bank” isn’t any safer than money anywhere else. So why not invest in a crypto-currency that can’t be stolen by the banks?
As Europeans and Russians were funneling unprecedented sums of money into bitcoin over the past few months, Asians began to dump speculative money into the system. Today, Chinese investors (i.e. “gamblers”) are pumping huge sums of cash into bitcoin, hoping to double or triple their money as the currency continues its red hot rise.
... So how does this "problem" get fixed?
So how does this "problem" get fixed?
Mark de LA says
Apparently BitCoin exchanges like Mt. Gox are not immune from denial of service attacks.
source: ...
The most popular bitcoin exchange, Tokyo-based Mt.Gox announced
overnight that it had been the victim of a hacking attack after
experiencing a severe lag with its systems. The complications meant the
price quickly sank to below $115 before regaining ground to $130 by 6.00
a.m. London time on Thursday, according to Bitcoincharts.com.
...
Mark de LA says
Another story on the exchange making a correction.
source: ...
The Tokyo-based exchange said last week that hackers are engaging in a strategy to manipulate the price of the currency: “Attackers wait until the price of Bitcoins reaches a certain value, sell, destabilize the exchange, wait for everybody to panic-sell their Bitcoins, wait for the price to drop to a certain amount, then stop the attack and start buying as much as they can. Repeat this two or three times like we saw over the past few days and they profit.”
It looks like this may be happening again. Aside from that, any kind of 400 percent increase over 30 days is probably unsustainable from a technical point of view. A correction at this point would be healthy and natural.
...
Mark de LA says
Bitcoin vs Federal Government: ...
Before eBay or WikiLeaks, cypherpunks like Tim May imagined online markets for information in which buyers and sellers transacted anonymously using untraceable digital cash. Anything from state secrets to private credit reports would no doubt become available for the right price. These ideas were notoriously taken to the next level by the radical libertarian Jim Bell who proposed a system for anonymously crowdfunding the assassination of corrupt government officials.
While almost all the technology necessary for such black markets was available when the cypherpunks were writing, there was one conspicuous exception: true digital cash.
...
Mark de LA says
Then too Gold is rather subject to bubbles & others' currencies too:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2013/04/15/gold-nosedives-to-two-year-low/?test=latestnews
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2013/04/15/gold-nosedives-to-two-year-low/?test=latestnews
-
Gold prices slip to a two-year low, dropping below $1,400 per ounce, as investors worry over weaker than expected Chinese economy and fears the Federal Reserve might reduce monetary stimulus towards the end of the year.
AP
Mark de LA says
This is a threat to the IRS. ?
Mark de LA says
Amazon does its own:
source: ...
- One Amazon Coin is worth one US penny
- Coins can be bought in batches of 1000 and Kindle Users have been given 500 Coins for free
- Plans to launch Coins in the UK and for non-Kindle users have not yet been announced
...
Seth says
Well there have always been local coinage that can only be used within the domain of issuance. We do it too ... catalog cash ... remember green stamps ... also Facebook has their currency like this too.
What's the difference between amazon's coins which probably can only be used through amazon's system and promotional coinage like green stamps?
I don't think these kinds of things are general purpose currency.
Well there have always been local coinage that can only be used within the domain of issuance. We do it too ... catalog cash ... remember green stamps ... also Facebook has their currency like this too.
What's the difference between amazon's coins which probably can only be used through amazon's system and promotional coinage like green stamps?
I don't think these kinds of things are general purpose currency.
Mark de LA says
.. & then there is the corruption of money laundering (Liberty Reserve):
Of course the IRS & it's enforcement arms don't want any money to escape their grasp or taxes.
Source: ... The U.S. Secret Service have arrested five individuals and seized
multiple bank accounts related to a $6 billion money laundering scheme
being described by authorities as “staggering” and the largest ever case
of international money-laundering.
...
Charging a low one percent fee on transactions, Liberty Reserve allowed users to open accounts using fictitious names, including "Russian Hacker" and "Hacker Account," and to redeem the currency for cash in any part of the world using the third-party exchange companies.
...
Charging a low one percent fee on transactions, Liberty Reserve allowed users to open accounts using fictitious names, including "Russian Hacker" and "Hacker Account," and to redeem the currency for cash in any part of the world using the third-party exchange companies.
...
Of course the IRS & it's enforcement arms don't want any money to escape their grasp or taxes.
Mark de LA says
Mark de LA says
CoinDesk: ... Stanford University is offering a course to young entrepreneurs which
requires them to build a bitcoin crowdfunding system. Stanford is one of
the most illustrious universities in the US, and so the inclusion of
bitcoin is a sign of mainstream acceptance by exposing the business
people of tomorrow to the digital currency.
Seth says
i don't understand the salient edges that make bitcoin some kind of solution to our economic woes ... except of course that is not manipulate by the US Fed ... err, until of course it is. any currency can be manipulated by speculators, see Alessio Rastani: What you can learn from the Bitcoin bubble. then too if there is some artificial limit to the maximum number of bitcoins, then doesn't the price of them continue to rise? why is that better than any other rare objects, like gold?
Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-30 08:43:01 15095
i don't understand the salient edges that make bitcoin some kind of solution to our economic woes ... except of course that is not manipulate by the US Fed ... err, until of course it is. any currency can be manipulated by speculators, see Alessio Rastani: What you can learn from the Bitcoin bubble. then too if there is some artificial limit to the maximum number of bitcoins, then doesn't the price of them continue to rise? why is that better than any other rare objects, like gold?
A lot of answers can be found on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin- some can't it is experimental. Besides the Fed, which is a huge advantage, Bitcoin appears at the start to be free of human manipulation. The more it is used as currency the less it depends upon governmental manipulation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law says that $ the weaker, "bad money" will drive out the good Bitcoin - so don't hold your breath. Of course you can have a lot of fun beating up on the straw dog & when you are finshed - maybe fuck it in the ass. Right now the governments of the World are manipulating currency for their own advantages. Explain to me how the US national debt has been static - not moving for last few months & see if that is believable when normally they spend billions per minute.
Do some research -OR- come up with some brilliant solutions on your own.
Do some research -OR- come up with some brilliant solutions on your own.
Seth says
why can't bit coins be manipulated by people with monster computers who can devote their resource to mining bitcoins?
why, initially, is all the bitcoin "wealth" owned by those who calculated the first ones?
M 2013-07-31 07:44:49 15095
M 2013-07-30 10:26:21 15095
for "human manipulation" substitute "political manipulation" in the above!
Here is a good example of manipulation:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-new-gdp-methodology-what-you-need-to-know-2013-07-31?siteid=bnbh
Rewrite history & your accounting methods if you don't like them.
I worked for a company that did that for their sales figures & projected income & eventually the president was fired & fined for accounting fraud or something like that. Unfortunately, politicians get promoted instead.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-new-gdp-methodology-what-you-need-to-know-2013-07-31?siteid=bnbh
Rewrite history & your accounting methods if you don't like them.
I worked for a company that did that for their sales figures & projected income & eventually the president was fired & fined for accounting fraud or something like that. Unfortunately, politicians get promoted instead.
why can't bit coins be manipulated by people with monster computers who can devote their resource to mining bitcoins?
why, initially, is all the bitcoin "wealth" owned by those who calculated the first ones?
Mark de LA says
M 2013-07-30 10:26:21 15095
for "human manipulation" substitute "political manipulation" in the above!
Here is a good example of manipulation:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-new-gdp-methodology-what-you-need-to-know-2013-07-31?siteid=bnbh
Rewrite history & your accounting methods if you don't like them.
I worked for a company that did that for their sales figures & projected income & eventually the president was fired & fined for accounting fraud or something like that. Unfortunately, politicians get promoted instead.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-new-gdp-methodology-what-you-need-to-know-2013-07-31?siteid=bnbh
Rewrite history & your accounting methods if you don't like them.
I worked for a company that did that for their sales figures & projected income & eventually the president was fired & fined for accounting fraud or something like that. Unfortunately, politicians get promoted instead.
Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-31 09:09:24 15095
why can't bit coins be manipulated by people with monster computers who can devote their resource to mining bitcoins?
why, initially, is all the bitcoin "wealth" owned by those who calculated the first ones?
M 2013-07-31 07:44:49 15095
M 2013-07-30 10:26:21 15095
for "human manipulation" substitute "political manipulation" in the above!
Here is a good example of manipulation:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-new-gdp-methodology-what-you-need-to-know-2013-07-31?siteid=bnbh
Rewrite history & your accounting methods if you don't like them.
I worked for a company that did that for their sales figures & projected income & eventually the president was fired & fined for accounting fraud or something like that. Unfortunately, politicians get promoted instead.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-new-gdp-methodology-what-you-need-to-know-2013-07-31?siteid=bnbh
Rewrite history & your accounting methods if you don't like them.
I worked for a company that did that for their sales figures & projected income & eventually the president was fired & fined for accounting fraud or something like that. Unfortunately, politicians get promoted instead.
why can't bit coins be manipulated by people with monster computers who can devote their resource to mining bitcoins?
why, initially, is all the bitcoin "wealth" owned by those who calculated the first ones?
I still have the question about inserting a CRAY into the miners. I also have the question about what would happen if George Soros tried to buy up several billion bitcoins & tilt the market. But, Bitcoins don't have any wealth value like gold. They are a medium just like the federal reserve notes which are also worthless paper. Consult https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths at the Bitcoin wiki for more info. It is really a good source of information. For it to become a national currency it needs a scaling up solution &/or a rework. The mining fees are just a reward for finding unused blocks which are randomized (ibid). The wealth aspect is just like the worthless paper money in that at some point goods & services are exchanged using the shared currency.
Mark de LA says
Some other ideas fromt he LILIPOH issue on money are worth studying - I repeat here for those who are NOT playing whack-a-mole:
Sarah Hearn's article in LILIPOH is great. Some of the references she provides are:
-
http://chimgauer.info <- time expiring money
Mark de LA says
A bit more clues on the government's desire to regulate Bitcoin: http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-new-york-regulator-virtual-currencies-20130812,0,7377780.story
Like guns, (& maybe pressure cookers) if they have the potential for abuse of some kind they claim power to regulate it.
Government of the regulators, by the regulators & for the regulators .....
Like guns, (& maybe pressure cookers) if they have the potential for abuse of some kind they claim power to regulate it.
Government of the regulators, by the regulators & for the regulators .....
Seth says
The bitcoin is still psychologically tied to the dollar or other country's currency via the exchanges. How do you determine value in bitcoins without looking them up in http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ first to translate to native $ or whatever. Until there is a critical mass of bitcoin currency flowing in the economic veins it is still subject to regular currency. This is my hypothesis & it needs exploring. At some point if the US downgrades & the Yuan, Yen etc begin to fluctuate violently someone may begin to value bitcoins as themselves - a figment of computers & go for the stability. I ask how close are we? Or the converse how much is enough Bitcoin volume to make it attractive to convert en masse?
Seth says
Today it is up to > $600
..'
posted on G+ is my thoughts on the bubble: https://plus.google.com/114770537825857795301/posts/ji9JFkrskNX
to wit:
..'
posted on G+ is my thoughts on the bubble: https://plus.google.com/114770537825857795301/posts/ji9JFkrskNX
to wit:
I'm going to name my next sleeve-job (joke) a Satoshi after the founder. See http://bit.ly/1aTthie
for the reference. The story begins in a bath full of bubbles & a
lady of easy persuasion who will do anything for you if you can name
something different that she has never, ever done. (;-
books.google.com
- Why do people tell dirty jokes? And what is it about a joke's
dirtiness that makes it funny? G. Legman was perhaps the foremost
scholar of the dirty joke, a...
Seth says
I noticed that the http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ shows bitcoins have ~doubled since the last time I looked the market at the beginning of October. I wonder what's up. There is also a Chinese exchange on the list at the top.
Seth says
I got a bad gateway from the link above to the bar chart try this instead:
http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
ME 2013-11-08 01:13:58 15095
I noticed that the http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ shows bitcoins have ~doubled since the last time I looked the market at the beginning of October. I wonder what's up. There is also a Chinese exchange on the list at the top.
I got a bad gateway from the link above to the bar chart try this instead:
http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
Seth says
of course take a look at this (not to mention the onion in the domain name) ... this may well be a total prank ... but as a piece of conceptual art it certainly made me think.
of course take a look at this (not to mention the onion in the domain name) ... this may well be a total prank ... but as a piece of conceptual art it certainly made me think.
Seth says
interesting ... but i doubt that this will make for a successful business plan ... thought certainly it will be tried again and again to various degrees of diminishing returns .
.
Seth says
Interesting Bitcoin story:
source: ... The user, who has thus far only been identified by his reddit
username BitcoinPitcher2, had thought that someone might send him a bit
as a gag, though the user wasn’t sure the QR code would even be
scannable.
Fellow Bitcoin enthusiasts showed their support for the stunt by sending BitcoinPitcher2 over 22 Bitcoin. While the transactions first came in small amounts, the Bitcoin address soon saw transactions as large as 5 Bitcoin coming in from unknown addresses. With an exchange rate in excess of $1,000 USD the account quickly accumulated a large amount of money, well in excess of the Bitcoiner’s expectations. The details of the Bitcoin address can be view on Blockchain.info.
...
Seth says
seth 2013-12-01 10:41:30 15095
interesting ... but i doubt that this will make for a successful business plan ... thought certainly it will be tried again and again to various degrees of diminishing returns .
. The fascinating part for me was the bitcoin scancode.
Crowd sourcing could evolve out of this, maybe for trusting souls.
Crowd sourcing could evolve out of this, maybe for trusting souls.
Mark de LA says
& in a one party system China government bans Bitcoin & the market goes down ~39%. China manipulates their currency to make their products attractive.
Mark de LA says
Bitcoin as a market is a problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob9Ak1t09Ao the exchange itself adds one more layer of uncertainty on the currency economy. Bitcoin was trading at around $280 last October . It went as high as $1500 not too long aso & now is back down to ~ $480 with shenangans at Mt. Gox. WTF.
If I didn't know better I would say that someone in government figured out to ruin the Bitcoin . If not they have a good idea about it now. Who will trust it to do business with, eh?
If I didn't know better I would say that someone in government figured out to ruin the Bitcoin . If not they have a good idea about it now. Who will trust it to do business with, eh?
Mark de LA says
Strange use of bitcoin for “proof of life” by Assange
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/julian-assange-uses-bitcoins-blockchain-proof-life/
for further research, eh?
Strange use of bitcoin for “proof of life” by Assange
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/julian-assange-uses-bitcoins-blockchain-proof-life/
for further research, eh?
Assange then went on to provide a slightly more concrete proof by reading out block number #447506, mined by Bitmain, and its hash, produced today, on the 10th of January 2017, at 15:50:25 London time. He misread it at first, thus had to re-do it, joking this will send people crazy before adding that the mistake itself is evidence that the proof of life is genuine as it’s natural for people to make mistakes.
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