Government/Economy Separation Dispute #1

About: Linkback to the main Premise

Is contradicted by: (or link)  In order for the government to perform its function it must spend money and collect taxes.  Those transactions are a large proportion of the economy.  Therefore if the government is to perform its function, it cannot be totally separated from the economy.

Is supported by: (or link)

Tags

  1. taxes

Comments


Mark de LA says
I will formulate this later to fit this discussion format. We need to rethink what government is doing. The question we should be asking is NOT how can government do this, but how can particular things be accomplished together with individuals & private capital which we all desire.  I am saying that there are collective needs but concensus & conscious action can fulfill them.  IMHO, the only legitimate function of government is the security & soverignty of the state through military means & the prevention of insurrection & rebellion.  A small universal surtax should provide that.


Mark de LA says
Here is an interesting article on non-governmental cooperation amongst the citizenry:
NY Post: ... Most of the produce, grass-fed meat and organic chicken is donated from small organic farms upstate, including Northland Sheep Dairy, West Haven Farm and Wide Awake Bakery in Ithaca, and several farms in Connecticut and Vermont.

Read more: http://nyp.st/oPae6Z
... Being a cynic & conscious of political intrigue I would still research out or follow the money although this looks legit although some of it looks like the WhiteHouse's weekly parties.



Seth says
MR 2011-10-18 14:08:29 15560
seth 2011-10-18 08:36:16 15560
i don't think it is practical to assumes that "concensus & conscious action" will start accomplishing things without the customary force which has always been used to govern people.  I think it is futile to premise a political movement on a change in human behavior.  
Advocating force are you? Your true colors are coming out?

force in the sense of physics where things proceed on their course unless acted upon by a force.  anything can be a force, it does not need to be violent or physical.  when i give away free shipping at the catalog, i am exerting a force that causes a almost predictable percentage of people to order who would not have ordered at that time otherwise.  it might be interesting to ask what is not force in this context ... imagining that a percentage of people will order and just waiting for them to order.  perhaps a better word would be to cause.  in any case something that wields cause against behavior is how populations are governed. 

please don't twist it into something that it is not.

Mark de LA says
MR 2011-10-18 14:52:56 15560
Don't give me a lecture when you used the phrase itself:
customary force which has always been used to govern people
.....
The only reason you use force by government nowadays is because the government wants to do things that people don't want. Go to China if you like governments that operate by force.
We operated PJ2 essentially by concensus successfully for several years. Nobody got evicted for failure to pay rent. The paper castle people were evicted for being tweakers by force.
... they were thieves & essentially their cardboard home was torn down & they had no place to return to. 

Seth says
ok ok ... "force" was a bad choice of words ... i meant something more like "impose consequences" ... as in you need to impose consequences to govern.

thanks for teasing that out.

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-10-19 11:19:42 15560
ok ok ... "force" was a bad choice of words ... i meant something more like "impose consequences" ... as in you need to impose consequences to govern.

thanks for teasing that out.
Still sounds like a parents disciplining kids or perhaps a judge meting out sentences. To govern you have to grok the finest sense of service.


Seth says
it might be useful just to restate my objection to this statement ..

I am saying that there are collective needs but consensus & conscious action can fulfill them.
.... which is ...

i don't think it is practical to assumes that "consensus & conscious action" will start accomplishing things without the customary imposition of consequences which has always been used to govern people.  I think it is futile to premise a political movement on a change in human behavior.  



Seth says
source: mark above
A small universal surtax should provide that.

hmmm ... 9-9-9 ?

Mark de LA says
I have always assumed that some taxation like a universal tax (exempting only those who can't pay anything because they can't even take care of themselves & their own families) would be necessary to maintain sovereignty - at least until all wars cease & we appreciate the sentiment of "Can't we all just get along ?" .  The separation I speak of is economical in commerce.  The heavy hand of government should not put it's fist on the scales of commerce & throw stuff out of equilibrium as it has done through taxation & the Federal Reserve. Equally, some degree of legal judgement needs to be applied to those who game the system both monopoly & corruption - money made on money. Money made on investment is the way to go - first level investment in a company producing stuff. Governing bodies s/b within commerce for commerce & labor for labor (not labor unions) - ground up, possibly leaderless (as PJ2) or rotating leadership without tenure.


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