Ontological Unhackings
I say that Time, Government & Money are ontological Beings which only achieve tangibility in the material world through human beings via cultural memes (more being) & do not have the same kind or quality of reality as say an apple or a kiss. Some would say they are just abstract nouns & they are - yet we treat them as much more real. They do have a reality that is gripping as Being. The Constitution, laws, regulations & process give being to Government along with lawyers & judges. What else? (an exercise left to readers & students) . Clocks, watches & the movement & changes in the Heaven & on Earth gives being to Time. (what else? ...) . Barter, exchange of goods, work & precious metals give being to Money. ( ... etc). These are all relative to who we are a human beings: in groups & as individuals. The qualities of these things depend upon our own way of being in our minds, actions & emotions. Change any of these things & we change the quality of Time, Money & Government.
Tags
- time
- government
- money
Comments
Seth says
M 2011-11-09 17:19:24 15608
By the way I have had such experience & no amount of your rationality, arguing, conceptualization or other such mind & morass is going to change that.
Seth says
Wow, put the burden of communication all on me. It takes at least two to communicate last time i looked. It feels to me like your toying with the ultimate weapon in the RWG game here ... solipsism ... preachy about it too 
.
Just for the record, whether you believe it or not, i was trying to tease out your intended meaning by more in deapth actual communication because i had though there was something there .... sorry, now i'm not so very sure.
M 2011-11-10 10:16:32 15608
seth 2011-11-10 02:35:11 15608
i'm thinking that if your descriptions of the actual experiences were congruent with them, there would be no morass.
The morass is on your side - none on mine. It is not a description thingy. One has to do & observe & be conscious ... & yet some say none of that is necessary, except consciousness.
Wow, put the burden of communication all on me. It takes at least two to communicate last time i looked. It feels to me like your toying with the ultimate weapon in the RWG game here ... solipsism ... preachy about it too .Just for the record, whether you believe it or not, i was trying to tease out your intended meaning by more in deapth actual communication because i had though there was something there .... sorry, now i'm not so very sure.
Mark de LA says
seth 2011-11-07 11:26:28 15608
seth 2011-11-07 11:02:44 15608
I think this is where having an ontology based upon process and rather than physical objects makes this kind of question just go away. So we see government as a process, just like an apple is a process, and so is a kiss. The same goes for money - think of transaction processess. Time there is the odd man out ... it is a dimension shared by all change.
and yes, government and money require human beings to be part of the process for their existence. even time would not exist without a kind of human participation.
I prefer being instead of process as the main descriptive word here. I don't get anything tasty when I experience eating an apple-process; which as a minimum is a concept & not the thing.
process (n.) 
(from etymology online)early 14c., "fact of being carried on" (e.g. in process), from O.Fr. proces "journey" (13c.), from L. processus "process, advance, progress," from pp. stem of procedere "go forward" (see proceed). Meaning "course or method of action" is from mid-14c.; sense of "continuous series of actions meant to accomplish some result" (the main modern sense) is from 1620s. Legal sense of "course of action of a suit at law" is attested from early 14c. Verb meaning "prepare by special process" first recorded 1884. Related: Processed; processing.
(from etymology online)early 14c., "fact of being carried on" (e.g. in process), from O.Fr. proces "journey" (13c.), from L. processus "process, advance, progress," from pp. stem of procedere "go forward" (see proceed). Meaning "course or method of action" is from mid-14c.; sense of "continuous series of actions meant to accomplish some result" (the main modern sense) is from 1620s. Legal sense of "course of action of a suit at law" is attested from early 14c. Verb meaning "prepare by special process" first recorded 1884. Related: Processed; processing.
Mark de LA says
You lost the point! Shall I dredge up a bunny for it? Process is a concept. I can eat a piece of fruit without knowing how or where it was grown & those facts will not be things I can taste. I am not tasting a process I am tasting an apple. You have over-generalized the word process & can't tell the difference between a thing & a process. Even on process charts for business they know how to separate things from doings & processes. I don't want to argue this point any more I don't think you will profit. The whole thing started out with a rather Zen experience this morning & turned into opinion. How sad.
seth 2011-11-07 14:25:53 15608
source: M above
I don't get anything tasty when I experience eating an apple-process
I don't get anything tasty when I experience eating an apple-process
Au contraire everything you "get" from an apple is a process ... including its tasty sensation in your mouth, and its look and feel. what is more everything about the growth of the apple tree and how it propagates itself in an apples is part of the process called "apple". There is absolutely nothing that can become an object of our human thoughts about an apple that is not part of that process vaguely called "apple" in various contexts. That we humans generalize those processes to physical objects is just a pattern of though ... which pattern apparently gets you into unnecessary logical dilemmas.
You lost the point! Shall I dredge up a bunny for it? Process is a concept. I can eat a piece of fruit without knowing how or where it was grown & those facts will not be things I can taste. I am not tasting a process I am tasting an apple. You have over-generalized the word process & can't tell the difference between a thing & a process. Even on process charts for business they know how to separate things from doings & processes. I don't want to argue this point any more I don't think you will profit. The whole thing started out with a rather Zen experience this morning & turned into opinion. How sad.
Seth says
Well i just disagree.
If i eat an apple i am participating in a process interconnecting with everything that is human and apple. If i get thrown in jail by the government for not paying my taxes, i participate in a process which is government, and the consequences are just as very real as when i eat the apple.
You seem to think differently, but you don't explain how.
It might be more entertaining (if not enlightening) for both of us if you would just concentrate on what i have said in relationship to what you are saying instead of focusing on the sadness of me not hailing it as the great gestalt that you seem to think that it is. Perhaps it is a great gestalt, but you have not communicated it to me because our ontology is different (mine being based on process, yours apparently being based on thing) ... we would need to sort though that without letting our egos getting involved.
If i eat an apple i am participating in a process interconnecting with everything that is human and apple. If i get thrown in jail by the government for not paying my taxes, i participate in a process which is government, and the consequences are just as very real as when i eat the apple.
You seem to think differently, but you don't explain how.
It might be more entertaining (if not enlightening) for both of us if you would just concentrate on what i have said in relationship to what you are saying instead of focusing on the sadness of me not hailing it as the great gestalt that you seem to think that it is. Perhaps it is a great gestalt, but you have not communicated it to me because our ontology is different (mine being based on process, yours apparently being based on thing) ... we would need to sort though that without letting our egos getting involved.
Seth says
Incidentally ... when you say ...
source: M above
The qualities of these things depend upon our own way of being in our minds, actions & emotions. Change any of these things & we change the quality of Time, Money & Government.
The qualities of these things depend upon our own way of being in our minds, actions & emotions. Change any of these things & we change the quality of Time, Money & Government.
... i could not agree more 
. ... but i would hasten to add the same thing goes for apples.
. ... but i would hasten to add the same thing goes for apples.
Mark de LA says
seth 2011-11-08 11:56:32 15608
Well i just disagree.
If i eat an apple i am participating in a process interconnecting with everything that is human and apple. If i get thrown in jail by the government for not paying my taxes, i participate in a process which is government, and the consequences are just as very real as when i eat the apple.
You seem to think differently, but you don't explain how.
It might be more entertaining (if not enlightening) for both of us if you would just concentrate on what i have said in relationship to what you are saying instead of focusing on the sadness of me not hailing it as the great gestalt that you seem to think that it is. Perhaps it is a great gestalt, but you have not communicated it to me because our ontology is different (mine being based on process, yours apparently being based on thing) ... we would need to sort though that without letting our egos getting involved.
If i eat an apple i am participating in a process interconnecting with everything that is human and apple. If i get thrown in jail by the government for not paying my taxes, i participate in a process which is government, and the consequences are just as very real as when i eat the apple.
You seem to think differently, but you don't explain how.
It might be more entertaining (if not enlightening) for both of us if you would just concentrate on what i have said in relationship to what you are saying instead of focusing on the sadness of me not hailing it as the great gestalt that you seem to think that it is. Perhaps it is a great gestalt, but you have not communicated it to me because our ontology is different (mine being based on process, yours apparently being based on thing) ... we would need to sort though that without letting our egos getting involved.
Nobody, except perhaps you @S, thinks about all that process shit when they eat an apple - the process shit being mostly concepts & imagination - not those things you can experience directly. Go back and have a direct experience of eating an apple & only be with that experience in the NOW & not with how you got the apple, nor the growers nor pesticides nor money or any of the other things you can gather from the whole universe into your moment. Just be with the apple, be present in NOW as you eat it. (just you & the apple). No process involved. Don't get lost in the physics of chewing or the chemistry of taste (what you are taught is not necessarily real anyway). If you hear a crunch, taste a sour, experience saliva .... that's real & direct.
Mark de LA says
seth 2011-11-09 16:14:39 15608
M 2011-11-09 15:51:44 15608
Seth opts for the relative mish-mash no direct experience - so what? Who cares? Move along, then, the droids your are looking for are somewhere else .... ->
right, i don't believe in your so called "direct experience". my experiences are always interpreted by my own being, i have found no loopholes out of that ... though i may have imagined that i had. i'm sure you want your mileage to vary.
So your item above did rely upon direct experience, huh?
So your item above did rely upon direct experience, huh?
My item is Zen & you are not, apparently. Like I said move along nothing here for you.
Mark de LA says
seth 2011-11-09 13:25:20 15608
"thing" is just as much a concept as is "process" ... both have to do with naming and describing real things in language. the only difference is that a process requires the notion that knowledge of something take place as events in the continuum of time ... whereas thing assumes things exist apart from that.
my point is that when you think of government as a thing that is comprised as events and consequences that happen in time, just like apples do, then your grand gestalt dissapears. you don't taste and feel government, but you write checks to it, perhaps get killed or put in jail by it ... it has all to many tangible consequences in our lives. it is every bit as real as an apple.
this is not a mere linguistic point that i am making ... if you think that it is, then you are not understanding it.
my point is that when you think of government as a thing that is comprised as events and consequences that happen in time, just like apples do, then your grand gestalt dissapears. you don't taste and feel government, but you write checks to it, perhaps get killed or put in jail by it ... it has all to many tangible consequences in our lives. it is every bit as real as an apple.
this is not a mere linguistic point that i am making ... if you think that it is, then you are not understanding it.
The minute you describe something you leave the realm of experience. You can experience your "I" & then try to describe it & you lapse into words none of which is the experience of "I"....
How many times do I have to explain that to you?
Seth says
"thing" is just as much a concept as is "process" ... both have to do with naming and describing real things in language. the only difference is that a process requires the notion that knowledge of something take place as events in the continuum of time ... whereas thing assumes things exist apart from that.
my point is that when you think of government as a thing that is comprised as events and consequences that happen in time, just like apples do, then your grand gestalt dissapears. you don't taste and feel government, but you write checks to it, perhaps get killed or put in jail by it ... it has all to many tangible consequences in our lives. it is every bit as real as an apple.
this is not a mere linguistic point that i am making ... if you think that it is, then you are not understanding it.
my point is that when you think of government as a thing that is comprised as events and consequences that happen in time, just like apples do, then your grand gestalt dissapears. you don't taste and feel government, but you write checks to it, perhaps get killed or put in jail by it ... it has all to many tangible consequences in our lives. it is every bit as real as an apple.
this is not a mere linguistic point that i am making ... if you think that it is, then you are not understanding it.
Seth says
i would say, every quality of every thing in our human world "depend upon our own way of being in our minds, actions & emotions" ... there are no exceptions for kisses and apples.
M 2011-11-09 14:28:29 15608
seth 2011-11-09 13:25:20 15608
"thing" is just as much a concept as is "process" ... both have to do with naming and describing real things in language. the only difference is that a process requires the notion that knowledge of something take place as events in the continuum of time ... whereas thing assumes things exist apart from that.
my point is that when you think of government as a thing that is comprised as events and consequences that happen in time, just like apples do, then your grand gestalt dissapears. you don't taste and feel government, but you write checks to it, perhaps get killed or put in jail by it ... it has all to many tangible consequences in our lives. it is every bit as real as an apple.
this is not a mere linguistic point that i am making ... if you think that it is, then you are not understanding it.
my point is that when you think of government as a thing that is comprised as events and consequences that happen in time, just like apples do, then your grand gestalt dissapears. you don't taste and feel government, but you write checks to it, perhaps get killed or put in jail by it ... it has all to many tangible consequences in our lives. it is every bit as real as an apple.
this is not a mere linguistic point that i am making ... if you think that it is, then you are not understanding it.
The minute you describe something you leave the realm of experience. You can experience your "I" & then try to describe it & you lapse into words none of which is the experience of "I"....
How many times do I have to explain that to you?
i would say, every quality of every thing in our human world "depend upon our own way of being in our minds, actions & emotions" ... there are no exceptions for kisses and apples.
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