Obama and the American Dream

     In seeing part of Obama's speech the other day I was bothered by something that I could not shake loose until yesterday.  I even slept on it overnight, but it still hangs there like a black cloud over our collective futures IMHO.
     I just don't remember the American Dream having a component that says that you successful people over there who worked and accumulated more wealth than others owe to these over here half of your wealth so that we can all have what you have equally.  I don't think the founders of America based their Constitution, Bill of Rights or even the Declaration of Independence on Robin Hood although the legend existed at that time. I don't think they envisioned too much American Dream was bad for the country or it's people.  And, I am sure they did limit the powers of the government to decide who should have what & how much. The word LIBERTY cried out from all corners in those days. 
   It is sad that the bell is silent in these. The crack grows wider the memory grows fainter as the plebes demand & occupy the nation with cries for more bread & more circuses.

Comments


Mark de LA says
source: ...
In the long term, we have to rethink our tax system more fundamentally. We have to ask ourselves: Do we want to make the investments we need in things like education and research and high-tech manufacturing — all those things that helped make us an economic superpower? Or do we want to keep in place the tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans in our country? Because we can’t afford to do both. That is not politics. That’s just math. (Laughter and applause.)
... so the wealthiest Americans are demonized & painted with the brush of not hard working & even perhaps unworthy of their success & the American Dream & must pay for HIS programs.  I prefer that those who are successful like Bill Gates & Steve Jobs be the ones who determine where their excess wealth goes & for what programs. Government had very little if anything to do with their success. Perhaps nurture the formation of Trusts which foster such. Wealth will show up where wealth is not punished or regulated out of existence.


Seth says
M 2011-12-11 12:42:09 15695
source: ...
In the long term, we have to rethink our tax system more fundamentally. We have to ask ourselves: Do we want to make the investments we need in things like education and research and high-tech manufacturing �" all those things that helped make us an economic superpower? Or do we want to keep in place the tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans in our country? Because we can’t afford to do both. That is not politics. That’s just math. (Laughter and applause.)
... so the wealthiest Americans are demonized & painted with the brush of not hard working & even perhaps unworthy of their success & the American Dream & must pay for HIS programs.  I prefer that those who are successful like Bill Gates & Steve Jobs be the ones who determine where their excess wealth goes & for what programs. Government had very little if anything to do with their success. Perhaps nurture the formation of Trusts which foster such. Wealth will show up where wealth is not punished or regulated out of existence.

Well there is no "demonizing" in Obama's words that you have quoted above.  Nor is there any hint of implication that the wealthy individuals are not "hard working" or that they are "not worthy of their success".   You commentary on a political message is unless when you twist it into something that is not.


Mark de LA says
Obama has been playing class warfare for a long time. So if there is nothing bad about those who are wealthy nor the way they obtained their riches - why steal the wealth to pay for things other than what they voluntarily do themselves, huh? - they don't owe it to anyone!


Mark de LA says
source: ... Regulators who were supposed to warn us about the dangers of all this, but looked the other way or didn’t have the authority to look at all.

It was wrong. It combined the breathtaking greed of a few with irresponsibility all across the system. And it plunged our economy and the world into a crisis from which we’re still fighting to recover. It claimed the jobs and the homes and the basic security of millions of people — innocent, hardworking Americans who had met their responsibilities but were still left holding the bag.

... apparently it was greed & people in government who should have raised red flags that caused it.  Still no cause to take from the rich & give to the poor unless he is hinting that all those "at the top" are undue their wealth.  Apparently being one of "those at the top" was the sin:
source: ... Those at the very top grew wealthier from their incomes and their investments — wealthier than ever before. But everybody else struggled with costs that were growing and paychecks that weren’t — and too many families found themselves racking up more and more debt just to keep up.
...



Seth says
M 2011-12-11 14:45:10 15695
Obama has been playing class warfare for a long time. So if there is nothing bad about those who are wealthy nor the way they obtained their riches - why steal the wealth to pay for things other than what they voluntarily do themselves, huh? - they don't owe it to anyone!

It would make these kind of discussions more useful if you would write sentences that were not heavily laden with presumptions that you already know i do not share.  Answer this sentence honestly:  what did you think you were communicating to me buy saying the above? 

Here i'll try to deconstruct your presumptions:  "class warfare" is term that the right wing came up with, that implys some measure of jealousy ... they have it, we don't, we're envious ... we think you should give it to us through the government.   The good thing is,  that dreadful element that any practical minded person would reject (including me) is simply not in the Obama language, nor in his proposals.  Try talking to me about this issues and not foisting that poison pill in there. 

For example you might answer the thought problem i posed on Facebook:

source: thought problem posed to you on Facebook by me

i want you to picture an American society where everything that the government does now for the poor is left undone. Will you really feel more secure with all those sick and hungry people wandering in the streets and breaking into your home to find some scraps?

That is the worst case scenario of the government taxing people who can afford to pay and distributing to those who have problems.   I think the biggest part of that is medicaid, food stamps, rent subsidies, and student loans.  I really do want you to picture our society where those programs would be eliminated and and the rest of us have a decreased tax bill.  Is that a better society, or a worse one?

Mark de LA says
Seth: ... It would make these kind of discussions more useful if you would write sentences that were not heavily laden with presumptions that you already know i do not share. Answer this sentence honestly: what did you think you were communicating to me buy saying the above?

... At the time I wrote the sentence which elicited your comment above, Seth, you had been denying that O said anything about demonizing. I did not want to have to go word for word though his campaign speech propaganda to prove my impressions were correct.  Class warfare
source: ...

Definition for class warfare:

Web definitions:
class struggle: conflict between social or economic classes (especially between the capitalist and proletariat classes).
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

... I'm not sure whether Karl Marx used the term or not. Later on I began to extract stuff (which you failed to comment on) because you rather argue about arguing.



Mark de LA says
We are the most charitable people on Earth. If the government would get out of the way, because religious organizations tend to do the most of it, charity would happen even more. Unfortunately, the cause of the distress now is government not corporations or individuals. Look how long the Soviet Union suffered even after the Communism failed.  It takes a while for those used to having a government do all their thinking & making choices for them to experience a true open market.  Unfortunately, what was communism has now been replaced by a lot of Russian mafia & a black market.

Mark de LA says
I quoted directly from his speech. He blamed things on greed & those on top. That is class warfare pure & simple.  Pitting one class such as the wealthy against the middle class or the poor IS CLASS WARFARE you seem to be ignorant of that fact!


Seth says
Whatever. 

I have found nothing in Obama's speeches that demonize wealthy people; nor have i found anything in his actions that unfairly peanilize the upper economic class.   Obviously if you want to oppose Obama you will paint him as doing something despicable.   It is all just rhetoric, i am not interested.  But yes i am interested in perceiving troubles in our society and what the solutions might be. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-12-12 10:14:31 15695
Whatever. 

I have found nothing in Obama's speeches that demonize wealthy people; nor have i found anything in his actions that unfairly peanilize the upper economic class.   Obviously if you want to oppose Obama you will paint him as doing something despicable.   It is all just rhetoric, i am not interested.  But yes i am interested in perceiving troubles in our society and what the solutions might be. 
Obamaphilia rules in Seth's brain rot not addressing anything I say - not reading & not thinking - in his own words using class distinctions to justify stealing ... in his OWN words using class warfare & yet denying it exists.
Sorry dude, the angry droids of reason are worn out on this one:
but I can't.