Means Justify the Ends?

About: obama campaign collecting gop emails | the blog on obama: white house dossier

source: ...

The Obama presidential campaign is launching an effort to collect Republican email addresses by inviting its supporters to submit information about their Republican associates to the Obama 2012 website.

The effort could help the Obama campaign build a database that would enable it to target Republican voters during the general election campaign. But, more perniciously, it could also become part of an Democratic effort to influence Republican primary voters to select a candidate Democrats think Obama could most easily defeat.

...

Is Obama's goal Just About Winning? Was it ever anything else?  While "all is fair in Love & War!" and especially in politics some tactics illustrate the character of the campaign & hence the candidates themselves.  Is Obama about jobs? Then why not approve the pipeline? Why not pass the tax bill which both parties got & compromised on? I say that recent tactics show that Obama is about nothing except Winning & supposing that he can dictate from there on out.

No longer is it about democracy or even persuasion & solving real problems - difficult though they might be.  Unemployment rates are cooked & near depression levels. Lies abound.  $&S of each Republican candidate as soon as one bubbles to the top of the Republican primary polls.
WTF !!!!! Charlie Sheen you have a lot of company


Tags

  1. winning
  2. obama
  3. democrat party
  4. charlie sheen

Comments


Mark de LA says
My most favorite song from Howard Stern's New Years Party Cable TV program expresses my sentiments quite nicely:  (no disrespect for anyone particularly)
uri http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJbzFYaf0xI
Sorry, couldn't put her image below since I am on my backup machine on Linux .


Mark de LA says

I'm not sure what is going on with the URL here but you can search YouTube for:

"Roea Wallace on Howard Stern - Fuck The President"

& get the video.  It was done during the 1993 New Years show at the cusp of the GHWB as presidency.


Mark de LA says
Apparently the M$M & the Bully Pulpit are not enough?  Nothing illegal here, but it does imply that winning is more important than persuasion.  Why is Congress not enough? Why will the debates between Obama & the Republican candidate not be enough?  Why cook the books on unemployment data?


Seth says
MR 2011-12-14 10:17:52 15698
seth 2011-12-14 09:51:15 15698
There is nothing wrong with targeting republican voters.  What is wrong is making up intentions from zero evidence and  then blovicating about how dastardly it would be to do it.   Strangely enough denise was saying that i should vote for the worst possible candidate in the republican primary ... i told her i would vote for the best one.  What is your personal strategy?
Are you denying the article

Obama Campaign Collecting GOP Emails ?



Nope, not denying that he is probably collecting republican emails in order to solicit their votes.  Read the article carefully ... oh, yea unhacker of the human brain ... ask yourself the question: who came up with the idea of an "effort to influence Republican primary voters to select a candidate Democrats think Obama could most easily defeat" ?  Was it the democratic campaigners or was it Keith Koffler the person who is spreading the meme?

Mark de LA says
Deny, deframe & contradict is your most recent tactic when you encounter a message you don't like. Look back where I have called you Dude you will find a lot of them. The statement I have been writing is just a Zen expression of the unity of means & the goal to be achieved ... perhaps beyond your comprehension.  Contemplate it for a while & wait for a direct experience of it. I proposed it in 1984 in a meeting with you, Nate & myself as a fundamental principle of Common Logic.  The rest of it is stuck in an old CyberMind somewhere.


Seth says
MR 2011-12-14 10:56:03 15698
Wasn't SPAM made illegal at one time?
Nothing wrong with advertising though email ... although it is becoming less and less effective.  Spam is sending unsolicited emails, and yes it is obnoxious.  In this case it looks like the person who is providing the other person's email is, as it were, taking on the role of the spammer.  I wouldn't give the Obama campaign your email.  So, yes, asking people to provide others emails is just a bit over the line of propriety.  I'm just saying, don't go beyond the facts and make up shit and hold people responsible for things they are not doing and probably have no intentions of doing.

Now when we get into the realm of Facebook and G+ campaigning, it will be interesting how strategies emerge and evolve.

Mark de LA says
Roea Wallace's song has a zen similarity to John Lennon's Imagine only with a different payoff  (the means to the same ends is different!)
 

Mark de LA says
It is interesting with you to question everything else except the president & the democrat party's motives!  I remember the very first virus that surfaced on the web via Compuserv ... no matter what you did to delete or get rid of the mail it always came back with "just another hot potato" .  I see no legitimate reason for the Democrat Party to have the emails of all the Republicans at all unless they ask the owner of the emails first.  The president can get to everyone through the bully pulpit and all those billion dollars worth of advertizing.  He should not be involved in choosing his opponent even though there is nothing I know that is illegal about it.  Hence again my statement NOW that he is only about winning;  character & integrity being at the bottom of his list.



Seth says
MR 2011-12-14 11:57:31 15698
seth 2011-12-14 11:33:15 15698
MR 2011-12-14 11:14:55 15698
seth 2011-12-14 11:02:34 15698
I think it is silly to make some kind of binary separation between means and ends.  To me it is all just a process of change.  Somtimes to change something, you need to do something that you otherwise do not want to do ... in that case the need for the change overweighs the want. 
Well that's the difference between YOU & YOUR PRESIDENT & Integrity!  Go look the word up!

I just challenge your "means MUST ALWAYS justify ends"  as a useful guideline.  If our ethics diverge on that issue, then so be it.  I say look not only at the ethics of each individual action but also at the ethics of the collective effect of what is being changed.  For example to protect my family i might need to kill an intruder, in that case the end result justified a dastardly act.  Making a hard fast ethical rule that can never be broken is not only not practical, but also is unnecessary to live a fine ethical life.
DUDE! I have always said here & recently in posts on Facebook that "Then Ends AND the Means must be just (or true, beautiful & good)" - neither alone is sufficient; your strawman notwithstanding. I say integrity demands this. Your wishy-washy truthiness may give you different results.

I have no idea why you like to be rude by calling me "DUDE" ... and then reassert your peculiar morality as if by reasserting it, it would become more the law of the land ... particularly in this case, when i have already told you that i think your made up meta rule is just  silly.  How did it make you feel as you penned it?  How do you think it felt to me when i read it?  Do you think it had any effect in changing my ethics?  Did your means justify it's end?

L O fucking L

Mark de LA says
The DUDE Above: ... I have no idea why you like to be rude by calling me "DUDE" ... and then reassert your peculiar morality as if by reasserting it, it would become more the law of the land ... particularly in this case, when i have already told you that i think your made up meta rule is just  silly.  How did it make you feel as you penned it?  How do you think it felt to me when i read it?  Do you think it had any effect in changing my ethics?  Did your means justify it's end?
... I call you DUDE when you ignore what I wrote previously as if you were smoking something.  You lied about the way I state my version of the End AND the Means both must be just.  Your dissing me as silly is just your shit - don't gather others in your fold you are alone.  A lot of others simply say that Ends does NOT justify the means. You, Robin Hood, Obama and other liberals are the only ones - politically speaking - who believe in the Ends justify anything. 


Seth says
Well i don't know of any rational argument that you made that i ignored ... if there was just bring it up and i will deal with it.  For my part, your "End AND the Means both must be just" is an over generalized meta rule that does not allow for a real world choice of the importance of one action over another.  Strangely enough you actually have ignored my objections. 

And, no, i do not say "the Ends justify anything",  that is a twist (lie) of what i do say.



Seth says
MR 2011-12-14 11:34:52 15698
seth 2011-12-14 11:33:15 15698
MR 2011-12-14 11:14:55 15698
seth 2011-12-14 11:02:34 15698
I think it is silly to make some kind of binary separation between means and ends.  To me it is all just a process of change.  Somtimes to change something, you need to do something that you otherwise do not want to do ... in that case the need for the change overweighs the want. 
Well that's the difference between YOU & YOUR PRESIDENT & Integrity!  Go look the word up!

I just challenge your "means MUST ALWAYS justify ends"  as a useful guideline.  If our ethics diverge on that issue, then so be it.  I say look not only at the ethics of each individual action but also at the ethics of the collective effect of what is being changed.  For example to protect my family i might need to kill an intruder, in that case the end result justified a dastardly act.  Making a hard fast ethical rule that can never be broken is not only not practical, but also is unnecessary to live a fine ethical life.
On SPAM what's the difference whether a so-called friend gives the Democrat party my email or some internet company or professional email database gives it to the Democrat party?  It's all unsolicited.

Yep, sending unsolicited emails is not only obnoxious but is becoming quite ineffective.

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-12-14 11:33:15 15698
MR 2011-12-14 11:14:55 15698
seth 2011-12-14 11:02:34 15698
I think it is silly to make some kind of binary separation between means and ends.  To me it is all just a process of change.  Somtimes to change something, you need to do something that you otherwise do not want to do ... in that case the need for the change overweighs the want. 
Well that's the difference between YOU & YOUR PRESIDENT & Integrity!  Go look the word up!

I just challenge your "means MUST ALWAYS justify ends"  as a useful guideline.  If our ethics diverge on that issue, then so be it.  I say look not only at the ethics of each individual action but also at the ethics of the collective effect of what is being changed.  For example to protect my family i might need to kill an intruder, in that case the end result justified a dastardly act.  Making a hard fast ethical rule that can never be broken is not only not practical, but also is unnecessary to live a fine ethical life.
DUDE! I have always said here & recently in posts on Facebook that "Then Ends AND the Means must be just (or true, beautiful & good)" - neither alone is sufficient; your strawman notwithstanding. I say integrity demands this. Your wishy-washy truthiness may give you different results.


Mark de LA says
Sure, you can accomplish things by being a TURD, but I want no part of those things.


Mark de LA says
in other winning news: http://www.nationalenquirer.com/Charlie-Sheen-AIDS-Crisis-HIV-National-Enquirer
World Exclusive! Charlie Sheen Is HIV Positive — Inside His Shocking Diagnosis

Mark de LA says
Apparently the consequences finally catch up with you.

Mark de LA says
Booyah! ... & you can fuck your own Mind with your own Ego forever or until it finally catches up with you (whichever comes first)
STOP!  STOP! You're gonna make me pee myself! - STOP!  STOP! You're gonna make me pee myself!  Sea Lion Brian

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