The Demigog

About: obama launches “$40″ payroll tax cut campaign | the blog on obama: white house dossier

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I am for tax cuts. This one is a silly stunt. In actuality, nobody has caught on yet, it is robbing senior citizens of their funding for social security to buy pizza(?) - an example of the least healthy food combo - for everybody; political stunts & illogic ruling the day.  The M$M loves the stunt!
source: ... The total present value of payments expected under Social Security and Medicare beyond what is expected to be collected under current tax laws is about $100 trillion. One way to put that amount of money in context is to note that it is about twice the amount of all the net private assets that exist in America today. To answer cw’s question directly, the best back-of-envelope estimate is that meeting this unfunded portion of our Social Security and Medicare commitments would require roughly an immediate 80 percent increase in federal income taxes, sustained forever. " Jim Manzi
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Tags

  1. demigog
  2. pizza
  3. obamulation
  4. tax cut
  5. social security
  6. tax extension

Comments


Mark de LA says
We are living in a bizarre moment in history. Our establishment–the press, the academy, all unions, most politicians, many in business who have skin in the Ponzi game–assure us that borrowing trillions of dollars to finance wasteful spending, while sticking our children with the tab plus interest, is perfectly sensible. On the other hand, believing that we should live within our means is? Crazy! — John Hinderaker

Mark de LA says
 Question: How much do you have to invest in the future before you’ve spent it and no longer have one? — Mark Steyn


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-12-22 11:47:57 15711
source: M above
... "it is robbing senior citizens of their funding for social security" ...
I do believe your premis above is false because ...
source: The Social Security and Medicare Boards of Trustees said in its 2011 report via FactCheck.org

 “The loss of payroll tax revenue due to this one-year reduction will be made up by transfers from the General Fund of the Treasury to the OASI and DI Trust Funds and will thus have no financial impact on either program.”
... and logically Congress would not be arguing about how to pay for the tax cut if it were just being "robbed" form the  Trust Fund.


This is an interesting partisan fight with the language on both sides obscuring a valid way to think about the matter.  In this case main streme media has not done a very good job correctly publicizing the facts, instead they are just blovicating on the meta-drama.   Me, i won't take sides in the meta-drama debate, until i understand the actual facts better.
Yep, there has been NO TRUST in the OASI and DI Trust Funds for a long time since the funds have been commingled with the general funds & used to pay for bigger & bigger government programs. (.. in this case Obama's re-election attempt). If I were to allocate part of the family budget for a trust fund for a child's college education & then spent it anyway & paid out of current credit I would be in the same kind of mess:  It’s no coincidence that trust in government is at an all-time low now that the size of government is at an all-time high.Paul Ryan ... thats why the SS fund will go broke before you get any, S'th.

Seth says
source: Mark above
the funds have been commingled with the general funds & used to pay for bigger & bigger government programs. (.. in this case Obama's re-election attempt). If I were to allocate part of the family budget for a trust fund for a child's college education & then spent it anyway & paid out of current credit I would be in the same kind of mess
If you established a college trust fund you would want that money to be invested ... un-invested money depreciates and is removed from the economy.  There is nothing that i can find that would justify your description "commingled with the general funds" ... rather what happens to the fund is that it is invested in government securities and earns interest from those investments.  As such it becomes part of the national debt and is just as secure as is the ability of the USA to pay its debts.  Please read this Wikipedia article for background.  I agree with you, the government spends more than it should, and by running up its debt runs the risk of not being capable of paying it back, but i can find no valid connection between that risk and reducing taxes, albeit temporarily, for wage earners.  The actuarial shot falls in the SS Funds have to do with aging demographics ... are  unrelated to the risks of overspending, not to mention the temporary tax cut ... see some facts.

That said, and hopefully agreed upon, i also agree that this temporary tax reduction is just a band aid applied to a much larger problem and as such is more just a political move than a real solution.   The 120 billion of revenue from this tax is just about 3 hundredths of the 4 trillion that (apparently) needs to be cut from the national debt ... but the $40 more in each check is not a trivial matter to some actual individuals.

Mark de LA says
seth 2011-12-23 12:48:19 15711
source: Mark above
the funds have been commingled with the general funds & used to pay for bigger & bigger government programs. (.. in this case Obama's re-election attempt). If I were to allocate part of the family budget for a trust fund for a child's college education & then spent it anyway & paid out of current credit I would be in the same kind of mess
If you established a college trust fund you would want that money to be invested ... un-invested money depreciates and is removed from the economy.  There is nothing that i can find that would justify your description "commingled with the general funds" ... rather what happens to the fund is that it is invested in government securities and earns interest from those investments.  As such it becomes part of the national debt and is just as secure as is the ability of the USA to pay its debts.  Please read this Wikipedia article for background.  I agree with you, the government spends more than it should, and by running up its debt runs the risk of not being capable of paying it back, but i can find no valid connection between that risk and reducing taxes, albeit temporarily, for wage earners.  The actuarial shot falls in the SS Funds have to do with aging demographics ... are  unrelated to the risks of overspending, not to mention the temporary tax cut ... see some facts.

That said, and hopefully agreed upon, i also agree that this temporary tax reduction is just a band aid applied to a much larger problem and as such is more just a political move than a real solution.   The 120 billion of revenue from this tax is just about 3 hundredths of the 4 trillion that (apparently) needs to be cut from the national debt ... but the $40 more in each check is not a trivial matter to some actual individuals.
Invested at what % rate? ... an annuity held for the number of years I invested in SS would have yielded a better rate than anything I could get today.  Overall cash flow includes SS funds, check it out.

Mark de LA says
Don't try to fool me when you use the word invested in connection with the US Government - it's a euphamism for SPEND. Cash & revenue is an asset. SS is a liability. Try thinking of things in that way & you might get a clearer picture.


Seth says
source: Mark above
Invested at what % rate? ... an annuity held for the number of years I invested in SS would have yielded a better rate than anything I could get today.
The government bonds which are purchased are credited with a "market rate of interest" according to the Trustees ... and they have the highest possible security backed by the full credit of the US government ... and that is exactly what you should want to guarantee a retirement.  Would you rather it be invested in a risky stock market or perhaps real estate  where the principal could actually be lost and where the government itself would then be manipulating markets?

source: Mark above
Overall cash flow includes SS funds, check it out.
Yep, disbursements from the Fund are indeed written on checks from the US Treasury.  You said that to say what?

Mark de LA says
WOW! No need to go any further on this or anything else dealing with the Federal Government & money. I just realized the difference between you & I - you believe the bullshit that comes out of Washington & I don't.

Mark de LA says
Mulling things like this: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-23/fed-s-once-secret-data-compiled-by-bloomberg-released-to-public.html


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-12-23 15:19:11 15711
M 2011-12-23 13:53:00 15711
Don't try to fool me when you use the word invested in connection with the US Government - it's a euphamism for SPEND. Cash & revenue is an asset. SS is a liability. Try thinking of things in that way & you might get a clearer picture.

There is in fact a grand distinction between monies invested and monies spent.  There is no "euphemism" here, it is just accounting.
Well, wait for Obama to deliver your pizza & thank you for all those years of paying for it.


Mark de LA says
seth 2011-12-23 16:46:56 15711
... in other words, you refuse to apply reason here.  It has been for me a great sadness that you continually refuse to reason with me.  Oh well ...
It is not reason when you ignore the asset/liability argument & just go somewhere else. Enjoy the pizza.


Mark de LA says
source: ... This is a $121 billion annual drain on the Treasury that makes a mockery of the Democrats’ reverence for the Social Security trust fund and its inviolability. Obama’s OMB director took Social Security completely off the table in debt-reduction talks under the pretense that Social Security is self-financing. This is pure fiction, because the Treasury supplies whatever shortfalls Social Security faces. But now, with the payroll tax holiday, the administration openly demonstrates bad faith — conceding with its actions that the payroll tax is, after all, interchangeable with other revenue and never actually sequestered to ensure future payments to retirees.
...

The GOP’s performance nicely reprises that scene in “Animal House” where the marching band turns into a blind alley and row after row of plumed morons plows into a brick wall, crumbling to the ground in an unceremonious heap.

With one difference: House Republicans are unplumed.

... is anything rational going on in Congress at all these days?



Mark de LA says
... I wonder if all the cuts the debt commission are proceeding as fast as Obama wants to spend. Things are silent on that front:

GONNA NEED ANOTHER TRILLION  My recommendation is to require a budget first!


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