Seth fights Mark & Mark fights Seth


Tags

  1. fight clubs
  2. seth
  3. mark
  4. rwg
  5. item 15738
  6. nemesis

Comments


Seth says

Let us be honest.  This is the particular identity group in which RWG (Right Wrong Game) takes place.  It is just a personal ego trip between us ... and lots of other people have it too.   Imho, there is nothing zen about it, it is just a bad habit.  You can break the habit if you really want to. 

Mark de LA says
I don't think you really understand the RWG much at all. I suggest you find a different context that is not filled with the metaphors of pugilism, fighting & WAR & take a little more of your meds & you might have a better time of it.


Mark de LA says
I don't appreciate your putting my picture in your fight context imagination nor any other context.  I am NOT a public figure & retain the right to publish it anywhere I choose but not of YOUR choosing. 'nuf said!


Seth says
Well there is not doubt that i do not interpret this behavior the same way that you do.  You glorify the RWG and call it Zen and imply that there is some imperative that must be followed.  I do not.  I do acknowledge that there will always be conflict and there will always be situations where when one identity "wins" it is at the expense of another identity.  But when we are free to change our attitude, we can allow ouselves to get caught up in those battles or walk away from them to other alternatives.  When the cycle of behavior becomes repetitive and unproductive, i usually chose to walk away and igonore it ... you do too, but in doing so you usually make a final punch with that monster you seem to love.  

But yes, this fight does belong in the [tag fight clubs] category with the others here.  It is of the exact same nature ... one identity fighting another identity.  That is the whole point in bringing this up ... to realize what is fighting with what.  For example are Republicans fighting Democrats or is the principal of big government fighting the principal of minimal government?   Or is it just you fighting me?  

Do you not think it is a good idea to recognize the actual identity of the beings that are sustaining the fights that you participate in?

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-01-04 08:32:50 15738
MR 2012-01-02 09:32:10 15738
Your second sentence is a LIE. Your last sentence is an impossibility for either of us since neither of is sufficiently clairvoyant to grok such (you even not acknowledging such faculty might exist)! Quit trying to pick a fight with me & repeating such context you prefer rather than sticking to issues, solutions & substance. Not arguing Zen (or about it) would be a good start.

Well my second sentence is my interpretation of what you have said about the RWG ... it is the effect of your actual words on me ... as such it is not a lie.  Now if it does not correctly characterize your own beliefs about RWG, then by all means please educate me.  In particular, tell me how that game, when repeated unnecessarily, is not just a bad habit.

To my memory we have never actually had any adult to adult dialogue about the RWG.  Since you bring it up so often, don't your think such would be in order?  I will grant that complete knowledge of all the causal effects of the identity groups to which humans belong is impossible to obtain by any one individual.  But we do the best we can.  I am not prepared to just sweep all such awareness behind some mystical curtain. 



You will do better if you re-read 1722 & subsequent tag rooms. The machinery (physical body) & the lower parts of the human  (ID maybe) have an uncontrolled urge to hold another wrong (not right, I'm not wrong, I'm right & you differ , etc.)  in an argument when no agreement is surrendered & even that depends upon the submodalities of posture & tonality as well as the words used. You have said I glorify it & even though you & eric holder 15691 seem to think that a lie is all in your own mind's intents - the objective fact is I don't glorify it. More often than not I abhor it. The irresistable urge to continue an argument on your behalf (& sometimes mine - this item for example) is the prime time when I whip out the distinction inb order to terminate such fruitless persuit.  The content of RWG(s) IS usually fruitless as I intentionally illustrated in 4413 & in the case of Japan & maybe Iran may lead to serious consequences when persued on the international scale.

Seth says
M 2012-01-05 15:46:46 15738
seth 2012-01-05 15:29:40 15738
source: M above
More often than not I abhor it. The irresistable urge to continue an argument on your behalf (& sometimes mine - this item for example) is the prime time when I whip out the distinction inb order to terminate such fruitless persuit.  The content of RWG(s) IS usually fruitless
I agree it is usually fruitless. 

The best way to end it is not to respond at all, rather than taking a final punch with the monster ... another punch with the monster sure feels to the person receiving the punch to be another punch in the fight.  Did you realize that it feels like that to me?

It's still the chicken & egg problem or who gets the last word. Trying to preempt your position in the game by making my taking the last word as an extra punch is of course more of the game. Kudos, it's a great strategy but does not persuade. T, who was at one of the seminars which discussed the RWG likes to remind me that noticing the RWG & calling her out on it is just more of the RWG & I agree.
 
Yep, T is right ... and i suppose that noticing the noticing (your "preempt your position") is yet another transaction in the game   .

There is however a different dimension sometimes.  Sometimes i (probably you too) really are just trying to figure out how best to think about some subject.   Something has occured to us and we want to rubb that against the world ... to test it ... figure out its practicality ... perhaps even to develop a plan of action in its  regard.  When that occurs there really is no intention to battle the other person.  If you assume that there is a battle with you being right and the other person being wrong, you will act accordingly ... but instead, if you make the assumption that people really are trying to figure something out, i don't think you do end up with just the arguing for the sake of arguing and just for the sake of being right.

Seth says
M 2012-01-06 08:30:35 15738
Yep, perhaps. The challenge in this item is then it's title .
Yes, exactly ... strangely enough that same challenge exists for all of the identity groups that are fighting in fight clubs .

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-04-19 10:58:15 15738
M 2012-04-19 10:35:16 15738
seth 2012-04-19 10:30:06 15738
M 2012-04-19 09:57:27 15738
seth 2012-04-19 09:51:17 15738
M 2012-04-19 09:42:24 15738
seth 2012-04-19 09:10:50 15738
M 2012-04-19 08:59:46 15738
See - never an answer or a solution just flak & blame! Trying to stake out the moral ground with hot air?

good product placement ... hint, hint ... i'm looking at the water the fish swims in, you're looking at the fish.


"Above it all?" in the hot air, eh?

Note: it is your assumption that i feel "above it all" ... not mine .   Do you feel I am above it?  Are you afraid that I am? 

Note: This thread is about the water not the two fish swimming in it. 
You divorce yourself from engaging in it while engaging in it as if your shit doesn't stink.  No feelings here just observation. No fear - it's all part of the human machinery about which I wrote a long time ago & you denied was automatic.  1722 (2005)

i don't deny the machinery, nor do i deny that it is automatic ... i just deny that it is imperative, we do have a choice, just "dont do that".   And i refuse to see any Zen in it ... to me that is a cop out, a rationalization of something that is best thought of as a bad habit. 

Yes i move to see the water and not me as fish in it ... the medium here is the message.  But, please, don't take that personally ... it's not about you ... it's not about me ... it's not about either of us ... it is about the water that both of us are swimming in.  Blame the water.
Arguing by analogy is silly, gone on too long, just spin to pretend that you can stop it as a "bad habit" & imaginary .... other than that nice work!

Right, assuming that i am arguing with you, your right, i cannot prove anything to you by analogy, that would be silly.  But then i was trying not to argue with you here ... i was trying to explain what i am doing by using an analogy.  FYI, this is something that i started toying with this morning related to my erstwhile Bitter Nation opus.  I'm going to take your "nice work" as acknowledgement that you actually did get the message.  Thanks for listening.
Nothing left here but derp, ... derp..... Derp ... DERP!
Put some sweetening in your water!


Seth says
M 2012-04-19 10:35:16 15738
seth 2012-04-19 10:30:06 15738
M 2012-04-19 09:57:27 15738
seth 2012-04-19 09:51:17 15738
M 2012-04-19 09:42:24 15738
seth 2012-04-19 09:10:50 15738
M 2012-04-19 08:59:46 15738
See - never an answer or a solution just flak & blame! Trying to stake out the moral ground with hot air?

good product placement ... hint, hint ... i'm looking at the water the fish swims in, you're looking at the fish.


"Above it all?" in the hot air, eh?

Note: it is your assumption that i feel "above it all" ... not mine .   Do you feel I am above it?  Are you afraid that I am? 

Note: This thread is about the water not the two fish swimming in it. 
You divorce yourself from engaging in it while engaging in it as if your shit doesn't stink.  No feelings here just observation. No fear - it's all part of the human machinery about which I wrote a long time ago & you denied was automatic.  1722 (2005)

i don't deny the machinery, nor do i deny that it is automatic ... i just deny that it is imperative, we do have a choice, just "dont do that".   And i refuse to see any Zen in it ... to me that is a cop out, a rationalization of something that is best thought of as a bad habit. 

Yes i move to see the water and not me as fish in it ... the medium here is the message.  But, please, don't take that personally ... it's not about you ... it's not about me ... it's not about either of us ... it is about the water that both of us are swimming in.  Blame the water.
Arguing by analogy is silly, gone on too long, just spin to pretend that you can stop it as a "bad habit" & imaginary .... other than that nice work!

Right, assuming that i am arguing with you, your right, i cannot prove anything to you by analogy, that would be silly.  But then i was trying not to argue with you here ... i was trying to explain what i am doing by using an analogy.  FYI, this is something that i started toying with this morning related to my erstwhile Bitter Nation opus.  I'm going to take your "nice work" as acknowledgement that you actually did get the message.  Thanks for listening.

Mark de LA says
Maybe you need this to cool off your water:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0RpdPzJgaBw#!


Mark de LA says
This one on facebook sums up the RWG better even than 4413
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=130125402857#!/video/video.php?v=130125402857


Seth says
seth 2015-06-08 10:49:07 18380
Eiammy.. 2015-06-08 10:21:40 18380
Bozo's point of view & favorite mode of expression is abstractionism, sophism & linguistic dancing mine is ontology of the zen kind - the two are not likely to meet very often


you have not characterized my mode of expression accurately.  it is not abstractionism.  rather it is the opposite ... i try to focus on examples and specifics ... not generalizations.  your characterization of "sophism" is just an unsupported and ambiguous instult.   and yes, i am quite aware that we are talking her in language and must be mindful of the nature of that media.

i use ontology too ... i don't see that, in and of itself, as a difference between us.  but  you only seem to recognize the territory of ontology (that which exists) as something that we could actually talk to each other precisely about ... and i do not ... my story is that we can only talk to each other in representations of that which exists.

Zen is great ... kind of an internal story of a feeling from my perspective.  To me it is a splendor i privately get a glymps of from time to time ... i don't feel like using it against others as a bludgeon to emphasize the importance of my ego or degrade anothers. 

but i still expect that we can usefully talk to each other even at great depths ... it is just not so very easy as one might casually expect and certainly would take a great deal of cooperation. 


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