Whose Opininions Are YOURS? Which Ones?

About: online etymology dictionary - opinion

     This is a morning dump from a couple of days ago - I'm still mulling it over.
Ever consider that ALL your opinions were manufactured by somebody else? This is certainly true of my opinions.  They come from your friends, mothers & fathers & siblings, Main $tream Media, workmates & playmates; teachers & professors; actors & actresses; books & now the Internet (wikipedia & dictionaries of all kinds); Advertisements & movies; gossip & rumor; so-called scientific studies; supermarket tabloids; churches, synagogues, mosques & temples etc.  Question:  Do you have an identity or a personality without your opinions?
     Try this on for size: 

 (thanks to SodaHead for the pic)

Tags

  1. opinions
  2. gossip

Comments


Seth says
MR 2012-01-25 09:30:44 15782
I get "new" ideas & thoughts all the time.  This morning in the process of contemplation of where do the answers to the contemplated question come from in the context of not knowing I was having a difficult time focusing - the dog was bugging me.  Being present to an unfocused stream of consciousness that resisted focusing I inquired & contemplated where is the ordering of the stream of consciousness coming from? What orders it? How? etc. How come "I" am not in there ordering it ?  etc.

Maybe this process/being that you call "I" does not have any power to order it ... or maybe that "I" can only order occurrences when it is in a certain state or context ... or maybe you need to totally change your model of "I".  Personally i have no idea and do not profess any knowledge of such things.  I gave up trying to completely direct what occurs to me a long time ago.  Now the best i can do is to dink with the contexts around me ... sometimes i can change them for the better ... somtimes they change for the worse.


Mark de LA says
I get "new" ideas & thoughts all the time.  This morning in the process of contemplation of where do the answers to the contemplated question come from in the context of not knowing I was having a difficult time focusing - the dog was bugging me.  Being present to an unfocused stream of consciousness that resisted focusing I inquired & contemplated where is the ordering of the stream of consciousness coming from? What orders it? How? etc. How come "I" am not in there ordering it ?  etc.


Seth says
MR 2012-01-25 09:22:40 15782
seth 2012-01-25 08:11:10 15782
I usually am aware of the moment i form a new idea in my own thinking because it happens during my internal thought processes and not when I'm listening to others or reading.  Obviously, many of the facts and opinions on which the new idea is based were already there in my mind and could have come from anywhere ... but the new connection always carries with is an awareness that "this is something new".  Denise, however, is fond of saying "There is no such thing as fresh thought" ...  me i get them all the time, but not as often as i would like.  How about you?
Well, Seth, I was talking about opinions - not thoughts, ideas & concepts. Opinions are like beliefs without any first hand knowledge. Most of politics is opinions. They are like judgements without scientific or illative force.

A thought occurs to you, you roll it around with other beliefs in your mind, perhaps get confirmation from reading or listening to other people, when not a lot of conflicts turn up, it becomes a belief or perhaps an "opinion".  Yes, most political beliefs are of that nature.  Sometimes curiosity drives one to delve more deeply into the details and evidence supporting those opinions ... sometimes we just accept them.  We carry a model of the world in our minds ... when something new fits in with that model with no conflicts, then we are prone to add it to the model and it becomes belief or opinion.  Different people require more confirmation before they believe something than others ... especially if it does not fit in with your pre-existing model. 

I doubt that we disagree on any of that.  Thing is your per-existing model will fight being changed ... but sometimes honesty and curiosity win out and parts of your old world come crashing down.  But that doesn't happen very often ... do you remember that ever happening to you?

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-01-25 08:11:10 15782
I usually am aware of the moment i form a new idea in my own thinking because it happens during my internal thought processes and not when I'm listening to others or reading.  Obviously, many of the facts and opinions on which the new idea is based were already there in my mind and could have come from anywhere ... but the new connection always carries with is an awareness that "this is something new".  Denise, however, is fond of saying "There is no such thing as fresh thought" ...  me i get them all the time, but not as often as i would like.  How about you?
Well, Seth, I was talking about opinions - not thoughts, ideas & concepts. Opinions are like beliefs without any first hand knowledge. Most of politics is opinions. They are like judgements without scientific or illative force.


Seth says
MR 2012-01-25 11:36:00 15782
seth 2012-01-25 10:58:33 15782
MR 2012-01-25 10:42:59 15782
seth 2012-01-25 10:21:17 15782
One interesting example might be if someone believed that Obama destroyed jobs and ruined the economy.  Me i don't believe that presidents have all that much effect on the economy, especially when their policies have been opposed by Congress.  But if you did believe that Obama destroyed jobs, would this chart change your mind, or would you old model win out, and consequently you, must needs, would disbelieve the statistics in the chart?
Sorry, I am not going to argue that here. This item is still about where OPINIONS come from & can you trace them back to where they started.  I am not interested here in what is a generic theory of beliefs. I am not interested here in any particular political stand or issue. How did you form your opinions about Obama's job creation (counting the unemployed has been a problem) - did you get it from his administation? .. from MoveOn.org?  Obama has admitted & changed the counting distinctions several times as time has gone on ... did you have your opinion before you read the cited material?  Did you search for it having the opinion already looking for a justification from somewhere?   etc.

Sorry, i don't know how to respond to that ... first you say you don't want to "argue that here" ... and then you proceed to do so.

Incidentally i just cited the example here, not to argue it here, but rather to show how opinions function ... your response did confirm my model.
You have yet to trace how YOU arrived at your OPINION, DUDE. I coached you as to possibilities as to how you arrived at your belief.  You should supply your own & quit labeling my coaching as arguing your belief!

My belief was sated above ... "Me i don't believe that presidents have all that much effect on the economy, especially when their policies have been opposed by Congress" ... are you asking me how i arrived at that belief ? ... because it has nothing to do with the questions that you asked me.   I expressed my interest in the chart on Facebook as follows "Is there a way to study this graph to determine if it actually does tell the truth of the matter?".  I really am very honest when i ask questions like that, especially when they are posted on an item by Patric Hayes, whom i respect and who i was hoping would answer it.

But answering your particular questions as closely as i can ...

Moveon.org did not influence my beliefs about the graph in the slightest, as the graph itself was clearly labeled coming from the bureau of labor statistics (which yes i did check in advance).  I don't think that the administration can just fudge in erroneous figures (too much to loose if they were found out).

The only opinion that this chart bears on, for me, would be the belief by many republicans that Obama has destroyed jobs.  Unless the chart is a total fabrication, it does kind of make that belief false.  But I am curious, as i stated to Patric, whether the graph has been cherry picked to mislead ... but nobody that i know of has presented pertinent facts to dispute it.

I had my beliefs, as stated above, before i saw the Hayes posting as i had seen other versions of those statics in the past week.  The first time i saw them i was just a bit surprised as i had been hearing the opposite coming from republicans.  No i did not search for the stats, they just came to me from my normal reading of political dialogue. 

Can you now tell me your beliefs about this and where they came from?

Don't call me DUDE, it only degrades the tenor of our dialogue.  Next time you call me dude, don't expect me to answer your questions.

Mark de LA says
... & those are your opinions as well as your beliefs.  There really is a distinction between an opinion & a belief. Look them up if you don't know what they are. I don't care to debate your opinions because they are just that - your opinions. The more I trace back where my opinions came from the less substantial they become & the less vested my personality becomes in offering them up. I prefer to create less fragile things - probably less often.


Mark de LA says
MR 2012-01-26 10:18:11 15782
seth 2012-01-26 10:04:55 15782
When a person feels they are in the right and the other person is wrong, they get a little ego reward ... it's a feeling.  The more the feeling, the more the reward.  Thing is, that feeling, that reward, which we all "must" go for, might be a carrier of messages.   That kind of explains why communicators like the Olbermanns and Limbaughs, the preachers and  persecutors, are so successful at spreading their messages.  If there is no ego reward in a message, are you so very much interested in it, and are you even inclined to repeat it?  That is a serious question ... have a go at answering it!
Are you trying to merge the RWG & memes?  How does a message get into a feeling?

The RWG is not, but it is similar to Eric Berne's Games People Play & Harris' I'm OK .. You're ?? - it was presented as the root programming within some of the lower metaprograms of NLP. We have, of course, honed the RWG to a fine art.  It was presented rather heuristically as "If you were going to write a main control program wouldn't you make it run as if it were always right?".  There was no kind of proof that it is something brought forth (like Darwinian evolution or Dawkins' memes) as a survival of the fittest mechanism. I see the RWG as somewhat destructive & just the Luciferic pole of the Ahriman (extreme materialism) - Lucifer (extreme egoism) dynamic. If you have no ego how does interest work? Who has it?


Seth says
MR 2012-01-26 10:18:11 15782
seth 2012-01-26 10:04:55 15782
When a person feels they are in the right and the other person is wrong, they get a little ego reward ... it's a feeling.  The more the feeling, the more the reward.  Thing is, that feeling, that reward, which we all "must" go for, might be a carrier of messages.   That kind of explains why communicators like the Olbermanns and Limbaughs, the preachers and  persecutors, are so successful at spreading their messages.  If there is no ego reward in a message, are you so very much interested in it, and are you even inclined to repeat it?  That is a serious question ... have a go at answering it!
Are you trying to merge the RWG & memes?  How does a message get into a feeling?

When you hear the message, you get the feeling.  When you repeat the message publicly you get it again.

And, yes, this is an idea that relates RWG to memes .

Mark de LA says
You might move this somewhere else since you already repeated your theory on facebook.  You need not further dilute what has already been diluted of my original item.


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