Atheism, Religion & Secularity

It might be fruitful to examine the differences between Atheism, Religion & Secularity in order to tease out & unconceal the differences between these in reality & concept & in particular the common properties of them all. Up front I see very little difference in what is commonly called strongly held beliefs & religious faith. The first amendment is clear for those with clear minds:

Wikipedia: ... Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

... & so here are the domains of consideration:

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Seth says

MR 2012-02-21 19:07:40 15827

seth 2012-02-21 17:15:23 15827

MR 2012-02-21 15:52:03 15827

seth 2012-02-21 15:32:17 15827

MR 2012-02-21 15:28:19 15827

So you are apparently talking about subjective verification, then -eh?

Nope, not really subjective verification. I can think something out in my own mind and have it go click. That is not what i would call testing and verification.

why talk about it then?

I said all that just to say that there is a distinction ... a grand one ... one that makes a big difference ... between a belief based upon Faith ... and one based upon things that can be tested and verified.

I was trying to make sense out of the word not in that sentence above - intentional?

Yep the "not" was intentional. The point is that one can think about something in one's own mind and get a "yes-that-is-true" signal, but that does not entail what i call "tested and verified". To test a proposition means to match it to signals and signs in the world external to your own mind that can be verified by anyone. A thorough treatment of that would probably lead into more dialogue than you are prepared to get into.

Mark de LA says

One of the first things to notice is that faith & belief are components. Secular and religious are opposites. For me faith & belief are essentially the same thing - both involve a feeling of certainty. The same could be said for atheism as a strong belief. Neither faith nor God nor atheism can be proved using strictly logic. To hold to secularity, the opposite of religion, seems to violate the 1st amendment clause which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" secularity promotes the separateness of religion from the state & is NOT in the constitution.

Seth says

MR 2012-02-21 15:13:01 15827

seth 2012-02-21 14:53:24 15827

M 2012-02-20 17:22:19 15827

Faith is where you believe something that cannot be tested.

Actually it is usually expressed as in things which are unseen. There are many senses that can be used to test faith - they may just not be part of your repertoire.

Well at least for me it has nothing to do with the 5 senses per se. It has to do with whether the belief can be tested and verified. I even want to add the observation that Faith based belief cannot be tested or verified by those who do not already accept the beliefs. "Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to the son of God" ... that is a faith based belief. "A human spirit starts at conception" ... that is a faith based belief. etc.

Strangely enough, here is belief of mine that i do believe can be tested: "God is great" ... though please substitute "Nature" or perhaps "All there is" for "God".

Mark de LA says

seth 2012-02-21 14:53:24 15827

M 2012-02-20 17:22:19 15827

Faith is where you believe something that cannot be tested.

Actually it is usually expressed as in things which are unseen. There are many senses that can be used to test faith - they may just not be part of your repertoire.

Mark de LA says

seth 2012-02-21 15:32:17 15827

MR 2012-02-21 15:28:19 15827

So you are apparently talking about subjective verification, then -eh?

Nope, not really subjective verification. I can think something out in my own mind and have it go click. That is not what i would call testing and verification.

why talk about it then?

Mark de LA says

If you can't rely upon your AHA signal then you will never be able to test anything. Think about it! Even proofs like Fermatique rely on a long chain of smaller AHAs . Thats why very few will ever have that signal following the proof. Social & political shit is even worse & much less crisp.

Mark de LA says

seth 2012-02-21 17:15:23 15827

MR 2012-02-21 15:52:03 15827

seth 2012-02-21 15:32:17 15827

MR 2012-02-21 15:28:19 15827

So you are apparently talking about subjective verification, then -eh?

Nope, not really subjective verification. I can think something out in my own mind and have it go click. That is not what i would call testing and verification.

why talk about it then?

I was trying to make sense out of the word not in that sentence above - intentional?

Seth says

source: MR above
If you can't rely upon your AHA signal then you will never be able to test anything.

I don't believe that is the case. Mathematics and science have repeatable methods which yield the same result regardless of who is performing them. But it not just mathematics and science ... many other things in personal and ethical life can be tested ... with or without the AHA signal.

Then too that is not the whole story. How many times do people get false "AHA signals" when they are contemplating a fallacious proposition? This signal is perhaps one of the most unreliable signals that we receive. But i am still not saying i would totally ignore it ... for me it is a clue ... a guide ... an excellant indicator that testing and verification is needed.

Mark de LA says

There are aha signals all along the way of proof. With complexity comes a chain of custody of your final belief which travels on thin ice for a huge part of the time. Math is good until it goes out into nonperseptual things like 9 dimensions. Science is good until it falls into a pit of global warming & politics....

Mark de LA says

MR 2012-02-22 14:15:40 15827

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/02/22/loose-wire-led-to-stunning-faster-than-light-particle-finding.html

Atheism, Religion & Secularity

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