Other

About: The Wikipedia on the subject of other

     In a thought exercise during an ontology class in Oakland the life of a baby was traced from being born to some time later.  At first we are born suddenly being departed from a comfy, fully provided for existence into another one.
      At some point we recognize mother - another being (not using words or such). Given some care & food this source becomes "other is for me". Somehow left alone one day we doubt this - "Where is mother? (again not in words) & it becomes "other may not be for me".
     Sooner or later crying (genetics?) produces a desired result or returning to "other is for me if I cry". Manipulation happens shortly thereafter. Many more stages of relating to others happen.  "Other is NOT for me", "Other is against me", etc. As ego & self-consciousness grow the story grows away from innocence. 
    This whole thought conceptual material came from a reflection that sometimes, other is not for me!  Perhaps that is the basis of conflict - something from a long time ago.

Tags

  1. baby questions
  2. other
  3. conflict
  4. otherness
  5. me you

Comments


Mark de LA says
A fascinating thingy found in the dictionary is Meontology.
source: ... The word comes from the Ancient Greek μή - me "non" and ὄν - on "being" (confer ontology). It refers not exactly to the study of what does not exist, but an attempt to cover what may remain outside of ontology. It can also be associated more recently, with the emphasis placed upon absence or deferral by both Martin Heidegger and Jacques Derrida.
... I like the part where me = "non". 
The question in my mind is why would anyone study it unless they have a government grant?



Seth says
Yes, as we grow in awareness, our conceptions of what is our self and what is not our self grows.  Perhaps i should have stated that in the first person ... as apparently some people keep the whole universe as still them selves.  But solipsism aside, i still think that a keen sense of otherness is a mark of maturity. 

Since i learned how to play myself out of insanity back in the 70's, i have cultured a special love of otherness.  I became more sane by noticing what was otherness to me ... learning to  respect it, rather than judging , manipulating, or longing  to be it. 

Great topic !

Mark de LA says
Once I am self-conscious in the highest sense (Spirit-Self in Anthroposophy) - it is no big deal to notice other thingies. We do often project our own evil upon others not noticing all the time we are looking in a mirror, imho.


Seth says
I have no confusions here at all.  I am merely making a logical and analytical observation: There are two symmetric errors that a person can fall into when defining themselves.  (1) perceiving that something inside themselves is outside themselves ... that is the error you yourself pointed out and called "projecting". And (2) perceiving that something outside of themselves is inside themselves.  It doesn't really matter what you call that second error, i call it being "grandiose".  Note that this logical analysis has nothing to do with how you define yourself or what you define yourself to be ... the analysis is quite independent of that.   Now, of course, if you make no logical and analytic analysis of what you are, then this analysis has nothing to do with you.  Perhaps that is why you accused me of being confused.

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-06-03 03:09:14 16035
I have no confusions here at all.  I am merely making a logical and analytical observation: There are two symmetric errors that a person can fall into when defining themselves.  (1) perceiving that something inside themselves is outside themselves ... that is the error you yourself pointed out and called "projecting". And (2) perceiving that something outside of themselves is inside themselves.  It doesn't really matter what you call that second error, i call it being "grandiose".  Note that this logical analysis has nothing to do with how you define yourself or what you define yourself to be ... the analysis is quite independent of that.   Now, of course, if you make no logical and analytic analysis of what you are, then this analysis has nothing to do with you.  Perhaps that is why you accused me of being confused.
Kewl! at least you clarified what YOU were doing.  I doubt that analysis will ever lead you to who or what you are nor will "defining" unless who & what that is is a concept, idea or perhaps a piece of art.  Then too, there is also a distinction between who you are & your personality, self etc - at least for some people (me included).


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-06-01 12:12:11 16035
M 2012-06-01 12:06:09 16035
seth 2012-06-01 12:03:36 16035
M 2012-06-01 11:51:25 16035
seth 2012-06-01 10:03:24 16035
M 2012-06-01 09:52:17 16035
seth 2012-06-01 09:36:30 16035
Yes, definitely, projecting is an otherness-recognition error.  I made a table

   is me
 is other
 noticed as me
 ok  what is the name of this?
 noticed as other
 projecting  ok

What is the other error?
I don't understand this.

Just a study in symmetry.  You could read each sell as a sentence ... eg ... If it "is me" and is "noticed as me" then all is "ok" ... similarily for all of the other sells.   What the symmetry uncovers is that based upon your meme: "We do often project our own evil upon others not noticing all the time we are looking in a mirror" ... which is coded in the table as: ... "if it is me, and i notice it as other, then i am projecting" ... symmetry presents us with the question... "if it is other, and i notice it as me, then what am i doing?".  

simple stuff ... no need to overthink.

Yep, ... rather binary.  I thought there must be more to it.

Can you answer the question that it poses?
What question? Your maze is not that helpful. Ask a direct question without your table, please.
there i blolded it and blued it.

NOT ME!  ... this nest is behaving peculiarly.

Mark de LA says
M 2012-06-04 11:09:01 16035
I have no illusion about the world & it's perception of me. I am not gathering followers. I am more just thinking out loud. I can type faster than I can write in a journal. I can find my threads of thought easier on fbi.   Up to this time,  I thought my writing was fairly just between us since fbi seems not to have any followers. Now I will be inclined to self-censure more often knowing that people whom I don't know very well might be likely to read it. There are no rules on the Internet. The Internet is like the Wild, Wild West. People do & say what they can get away with.  In politics its a lot like a kill-box & lie-zone - better truths notwithstanding.

BTW, I neglected to say I value, appreciate & respect your opinion even while disagreeing with them mostly in the area of politics. I do privatize those things I want to keep secret until I no longer have any control over them.


Seth says
M 2012-06-03 07:37:03 16035
I like to think that my items remain here unless I put them on facebook.  One reason is I often borrow images from Google images to help me find the items again & help focus on the topic. (they are like anchors) Sometimes I forget to attribute them to the originator.  The other is that the conversation is in fastblogit & carries the entire context here. It can be restarted or opened up somewhere else, but I prefer to do that myself. Finally, for your preservation of credibility or whatever - note that fbi can edit things back to private or even delete it them here & break your links. Postscriptly, if I don't track where you put them (particularly) then slander, libel etc can happen to me without my being able to defend such.
 
I suppose that with this one there is no harm & no foul - no tort.

Well that's not the way the web works.  Once you publish material and give it a public URL,  anybody can link to that URL.  That is the way fastblogit was designed to interface with the larger web.  Fastblogit is not a walled garden ... unless you make your items private.

As you know i am not a fan of making materials public and then changing them to private.  That does break one of the rules of the web ... cool URI do not change. When you do that you break the web and, in a way, you obscure efforts by others which are not really your "possissions". 

Items here at fastblogit were designed to be collaborative opuses.  Frequently i have used your items to formulate my own thoughts.  Our dialogue can ... and does, at times.... get closer to a better truth.  When you delete items or make them private, you actually obscure communication  ... some of which is not your authorship.  Now that is your right on your blog ... do what you will ... but don't expect me to like it.  It sounds to me, there will be less synergy between us.  Too bad.

All that said and accepted ... if you don't want me to share your items, i won't. I found your item that i shared and deleted it ... it was not really projecting there the way i wanted it projected anyway.   Hopefully you are aware that more and more you are withdrawing from the world ... and, imho, what you say and do is becomming less and less pertinant to it.   It seems to me you are setting up blocks.  Imho, as you block the world coming in, you block your effect going out.  Hey, have fun with that ... even though it is not my thing.

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-06-01 13:39:10 16035
M 2012-06-01 13:27:37 16035
seth 2012-06-01 12:32:54 16035
source: from the matrix above we get the question generated by symmetry
"if it is other, and i notice it as me, then what am i doing?"
I think then i would have to conclude that I was being grandiose ... taking credit for something that i was not responsible for.   You could further complicate the symmetry by adding another dimension ... positive/negative behavior. 
You are being deluded.
If you refine what "ME" is until you get it as a direct experience, a priori like, then you might run into some clarity.

well if you can show where i have not described the situation accurately, then it would be of great help to me.
I can't do that. You are trying to do something with concept & artifact which leads you into some kind of a confusion. I do not wish to join the confusion. Follow the instruction I gave above after the words "You are being deluded" - that is the only help I have for this one. I don't define myself the way you do. This the best hint I can give. I really don't define myself at all.


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-06-04 08:49:15 16035
M 2012-06-03 07:17:54 16035
seth 2012-06-03 03:09:14 16035
I have no confusions here at all.  I am merely making a logical and analytical observation: There are two symmetric errors that a person can fall into when defining themselves.  (1) perceiving that something inside themselves is outside themselves ... that is the error you yourself pointed out and called "projecting". And (2) perceiving that something outside of themselves is inside themselves.  It doesn't really matter what you call that second error, i call it being "grandiose".  Note that this logical analysis has nothing to do with how you define yourself or what you define yourself to be ... the analysis is quite independent of that.   Now, of course, if you make no logical and analytic analysis of what you are, then this analysis has nothing to do with you.  Perhaps that is why you accused me of being confused.
Kewl! at least you clarified what YOU were doing.  I doubt that analysis will ever lead you to who or what you are nor will "defining" unless who & what that is is a concept, idea or perhaps a piece of art.  Then too, there is also a distinction between who you are & your personality, self etc - at least for some people (me included).

It was not a procedure to lead to a realization.  It was an analysis to point out two symmetrical errors of perception.
... more like errors in cognition.  Perception is a color blind person thinking a color is brown when its red or green. Cognition is what you make of something once your senses have touched it. Additionally, there is the story of 4 blind men examining an elephant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant 


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