Truth & Science

If truth (what's so, what exists, &/or together with the language to describe it) depends upon the the observer, his history & his point-of-view then all science is opinion, futile (to repeat) & possibly a sham - since we are all different & have different histories.

Borrowed from the Visual Thesaurus to describe the domain I'm talking about:



Tags

  1. truth
  2. science
  3. better truth

Comments


Mark de LA says
One man's mocking is another mans reductio ad absurdum!

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-09-15 14:02:14 16185
M 2012-09-15 13:48:05 16185
seth 2012-09-15 13:14:43 16185
Yes, "A better truth" presumes a process of improvement. 

When you say something, as in your example, which is congruent with your experience and you get a feeling judging that statement to be true ... you are certainly justified is saying that you have spoken the truth.  But things change ... even our world views ... surprise surprise.  Have you never gone back and reread your own statement which at the time it was spoken felt true ... and yet now seems not to be so very true, and that a better statement could have been made. 
KEWL! No need to read your shit any more, it's just your judgement & it's not your final answer.

Yep, go ahead and continue mocking "a better truth".  Your mocking no longer is of any interest to me.
KEWL! Your truth no longer interests me.  When it shows as a reality, I might consider it again some life.


Mark de LA says
Yea Bozo! I didn't think it could be done, but I think he has come up with a philosophical point which allows him to believe anything he judges as true & the corollaries not be wrong etc, i.e. a way in his own mind out of the RWG!.
[c.f.: item 16188]



Mark de LA says
seth 2012-09-15 13:14:43 16185
Yes, "A better truth" presumes a process of improvement. 

When you say something, as in your example, which is congruent with your experience and you get a feeling judging that statement to be true ... you are certainly justified is saying that you have spoken the truth.  But things change ... even our world views ... surprise surprise.  Have you never gone back and reread your own statement which at the time it was spoken felt true ... and yet now seems not to be so very true, and that a better statement could have been made. 
KEWL! No need to read your shit any more, it's just your judgement & it's not your final answer.


Mark de LA says
The funny thing is that TRUTH & the RWG have little in common with each other. Sorry about the appearance of that strawman.
Seth's version of the truth is that he gets multiple stabs at getting it right. I say that if you make a statement about something which is actually in existence on the Earth or in the Heavens & that statment is congruent with what exists you have spoken the truth.  Seth's version is more like congressmen reserving their rights to revise & extend their remarks depending upon how much flak they get from the public; or a witness on the stand revising testimony when challenged. Once you have spoken or written you have either lied or spoken the truth.  Who approaches finding the truth by hanging around until the end of someone's life for them to finally figure out what they said.  It becomes a real conundrum if someone alternately tells the truth then lies then tells the truth or lies ad infinitum .  How would you determine when the better shit comes in?


Mark de LA says
M 2012-09-17 08:18:55 16185
Consider for the moment that what happened up Uranus last Thursday on the side of the planet farthest from view from the Earth did happen & nobody saw it by any means. The ontological truth is that whatever it was - WAS! ....
Unless, there is a group of beings in the Universe whose sole purpose is to complete the part of the universe we don't sense just as we extend our powers to sense them. We might call them gods or The Puzzle Players.  Until we knock on the door of perception there is just nothing there until the Puzzle Players put something there.  This could also apply to the micro Universe as well. Currently I think they are having lots of fun playing with the Large Hadron Collider.

Maybe this scenario also includes our concepts & thoughts.


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-09-17 09:54:26 16185
M 2012-09-17 09:48:48 16185
seth 2012-09-17 09:40:22 16185
source: Mark above
A "BETTER TRUTH" is part of your world of make believe. It doesn't exist in any other person's mind.
And you have experienced that how?
Well it is certainly not in mine.  Tina also thinks the notion is silly - so that's 2 people.

2 people =/= any other person.  Apparently it exist in at least one other person's mind.  That contra example disproves your assertion.
Yep, & he's a guy that believes in infinite parallel universes & jumping between them.  Like I said above it's a fantasy world of make-believe!


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-09-17 09:10:10 16185
M 2012-09-17 08:23:38 16185
M 2012-09-17 08:18:55 16185
Consider for the moment that what happened up Uranus last Thursday on the side of the planet farthest from view from the Earth did happen & nobody saw it by any means. The ontological truth is that whatever it was - WAS! ....
Unless, there is a group of beings in the Universe whose sole purpose is to complete the part of the universe we don't sense just as we extend our powers to sense them. We might call them gods or The Puzzle Players.  Until we knock on the door of perception there is just nothing there until the Puzzle Players put something there.  This could also apply to the micro Universe as well. Currently I think they are having lots of fun playing with the Large Hadron Collider.

Maybe this scenario also includes our concepts & thoughts.


Note the emphasis in "A better truth" on personal experience ... in particular of the personal experience of how something fits ... strangely enough that is all you are ever going to get.  That experience can be just as very broad as you make it ... there is no limitation to it that i know of.  But you cannot experience something that you do not in fact experience ... that would be a logical contradiction ... therefore you cannot have any experience of truth in the matters that happened on Uranus last Thursday unless of course you actually did.  Consequently the matter of  a better truth on that matter simply does not apply to you.
A "BETTER TRUTH" is part of your world of make believe. It doesn't exist in any other person's mind. Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a_fr9j7RUc


Seth says
...

source: M presumably in response
the last clause looking like an insult, but it didn't work.

...

Strange ... i can't figure out how you could interpret that as an instult ... it certainly was not meant as such ... in fact it was meant as a respect and acceptance of your point of view.  Me i got a belly laugh from it ... i'm still laughing ... when you can see the humor, perhaps you will share


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-09-17 10:24:36 16185
M 2012-09-17 10:22:18 16185
seth 2012-09-17 09:54:26 16185
M 2012-09-17 09:48:48 16185
seth 2012-09-17 09:40:22 16185
source: Mark above
A "BETTER TRUTH" is part of your world of make believe. It doesn't exist in any other person's mind.
And you have experienced that how?
Well it is certainly not in mine.  Tina also thinks the notion is silly - so that's 2 people.

2 people =/= any other person.  Apparently it exist in at least one other person's mind.  That contra example disproves your assertion.
Yep, & he's a guy that believes in infinite parallel universes & jumping between them.  Like I said above it's a fantasy world of make-believe!


that kind of begs the question what is is not.
OK , I guess I went overboard with the "any other" thingy. ... Seth+1 is a narrow quorum.


Mark de LA says
M 2012-09-17 10:39:47 16185
A tree falling in the forest making a sound with nobody there is an old puzzle. There is no sound because the The Puzzle Players don't produce the tree until the proper time of discovery & since the sound would give them away they only produce the resulting fallen tree.

The Puzzle Players probably set it all up in one of those alternative universes first & then push an infinitely fast manifestation button when the time comes.

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-09-17 11:01:23 16185
M 2012-09-17 10:46:17 16185
seth 2012-09-17 10:24:36 16185
M 2012-09-17 10:22:18 16185
seth 2012-09-17 09:54:26 16185
M 2012-09-17 09:48:48 16185
seth 2012-09-17 09:40:22 16185
source: Mark above
A "BETTER TRUTH" is part of your world of make believe. It doesn't exist in any other person's mind.
And you have experienced that how?
Well it is certainly not in mine.  Tina also thinks the notion is silly - so that's 2 people.

2 people =/= any other person.  Apparently it exist in at least one other person's mind.  That contra example disproves your assertion.
Yep, & he's a guy that believes in infinite parallel universes & jumping between them.  Like I said above it's a fantasy world of make-believe!


that kind of begs the question what is is not.
OK , I guess I went overboard with the "any other" thingy. ... Seth+1 is a narrow quorum.

Nut houses are full of people who believe shit incongruent with outside reality other than their own but they don't know they are fantasizing. Most of the rest of your statements are officious pedagogical quackery devoid of interesting content; the last clause looking like an insult, but it didn't work.


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-09-17 10:50:50 16185
M 2012-09-17 10:42:45 16185
M 2012-09-17 10:39:47 16185
A tree falling in the forest making a sound with nobody there is an old puzzle. There is no sound because the The Puzzle Players don't produce the tree until the proper time of discovery & since the sound would give them away they only produce the resulting fallen tree.

The Puzzle Players probably set it all up in one of those alternative universes first & then push an infinitely fast manifestation button when the time comes.

you have seemed to imply that your mocking is reductio ad absurdum ... but it is not ... reductio ad absurdum does not go outside of the restraints and assumptions of the theory in question ... your mocking always does. 

Sorry for my double "is" in my comment of 2012-09-17 10:24:36  ... but it was a serious question about your train of though there ... but ok i do gather that you are not serious in your objections .... oh well.
Your comments are on the wrong comment here.  Your holding as mocking my reduction ad absurdum prevents you from getting the reductio ad absurdum.  There are no restraints when you are dealing with absurd thingies.


Lisa Cox says
None of us has the absolute same perspective, so our interpretation of the world around us cannot be identical, however it can be approximately close enough for us to encounter each other and even agree. The most difficult question is how close do we have to get to agreement to work together?

P.S. Is this the same Seth who helped me ponder contextCaves so long ago?

Mark de LA says
Lisa Cox 2012-09-27 22:59:11 16185
None of us has the absolute same perspective, so our interpretation of the world around us cannot be identical, however it can be approximately close enough for us to encounter each other and even agree. The most difficult question is how close do we have to get to agreement to work together?

P.S. Is this the same Seth who helped me ponder contextCaves so long ago?
How can you possibly know that since you have a different perspective than everyone else?

Lisa Cox says
There is knowing, then there is believing something is close enough to work with. I try not to waste time on arguing about the former and use most of my energy trying to find what works. But I was first a physicist, then a computer scientist. I will never know enough to be able to argue with the philosophers. ;)

Seth says
Lisa Cox 2012-09-27 22:59:11 16185
None of us has the absolute same perspective, so our interpretation of the world around us cannot be identical, however it can be approximately close enough for us to encounter each other and even agree. The most difficult question is how close do we have to get to agreement to work together?

P.S. Is this the same Seth who helped me ponder contextCaves so long ago?

Yes it is ... hi Lisa ... great to meet you again.

Lisa Cox says
Hi! <waving> Long time no ponder about semantic representation. :)

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-09-30 15:56:39 16185
a bit of comic relief about science and truth ...


Derp .. Derp  Jon is really good at mocking; less good at making a valid point.




Mark de LA says
M 2012-10-04 07:21:22 16185
Better truth or better science?
..
Source: ... While still rare, fraud is growing more rampant in scientific studies

Casadevall said that even if society as a whole has become more deceptive, "I used to think that science was on a different plane. But I think science is like everybody else and that we are susceptible to the same pressures."

In science, he said, "there's a disproportionate reward system" so if a researcher is published in certain prominent journals they are more likely to get jobs and funding, so the temptations increase.

"Bigger money makes for bigger reasons for fraud," said New York University bioethicist Arthur Caplan. "More fame, more potential for profit... Some of the cheating and fraud is not too dissimilar to the cheating and fraud we've seen in banking."

... who is the author blaming it on?



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