A Better Truth

When we talk of truth ... or metaphorically of how something fits ... we are always talking about a judgement.  And as all judgements go ... it will be  personal and subjective ... and will vary from person to person.  There just is no removing that personal aspect from truth ... that is an assumption that must be accepted ... or not.  The term "a better truth" accepts the fact that there is no absolute truth which anyone can know ... there is no judgement that you can make except your own.  If you believe in an "absolute truth" of the matter that you can know, then a mere better one perhaps won't cut it for you ... but it is all you are ever going to get ... unless, of course, you want to lie to yourself.

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  1. better truth

Comments


Seth says
some discussion from Nathan about this happened on Facebook here.

Seth says
M 2012-09-17 11:22:44 16188
He only agrees with you because it sustains his beliefs in parallel universes & quantum jumps between them.
maybe ... maybe not ... i must admit that thought also occurred to me.

Seth says
M 2012-10-21 11:32:35 16188
This is the last argument I will put somewhere else. THe rest will be deleted w/o notice. The context of politics ruins the nice gentle ontology & analogy going on the other item.
Seth
source: ... Politics is part of our world and this predicament of which we talk here ... like it or not.  Politics  is where things get amped up and distorted.  It is also an excellent example of where "the medum" affects the original spirit-heart-felt inspiration. 

I have no intention of trying to push any political adgenda here in this item, which i acknowledge is not about that.  But missing my point, or rejecting my example,  just because i mentioned politics ... does me a great disservice.
...
oh boy .... what authority you wield ... and even anger ... and self serving purity

i wonder if perchance is the fun of wielding authority and in the anger of the moment, my poor little contribution to you item got all distorted out of existence.

Mark de LA says
This may belong here or perhaps somewhere else not on the segment inspired by Nathan's analogy, sorry - it was deleted where you put it. Please re-edit for bad links.
M: 2012-10-21 11:14:22
seth 2012-10-21 11:07:09 [item 16252]
M 2012-10-20 10:04:34 [item 16252]
The analogy has one flaw in that in the real world if you amp up a voice you can't avoid some amount of distortion.

flaw? ... Huh? 

The analogy actually suggests the problem you mention:  ... if you amp up a voice your do get distortion.  Real world examples abound.  Take for example our government.  The government is an expression of the legitimite heart felt desire to solve problems collectively that cannot be solved individually ... say for example defending the country from foreign invaders, or to provide affordable health care for everyone.  Ramp that up and what do you get?  Something that i'm sure you will agree with me on ... the Obama 2012 campaign. 
You are way off topic, please put this on a POLITICAL node. You description just is out of place here.


Seth says
M 2012-10-21 13:58:33 16188
We've argued over & over politics from many sides. It goes nowhere. Give it a rest or not. I have the other item linked to one of Nathan's blog articles.  I composed the comment in fastblogit because it is easier to edit & compose my thoughts here than in Wordpress.  I prefer it not get linked to our politics. It's not power or any of that other shit you got angry about. Politics has very little to do with our personal ontologies; it's more our public identities. All the amped up rhetoric & polarity in the political arena has little to do with what we were talking about on the other item except that the universe is all connected.


strawman.   nobody was suggesting arguing about politics. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-10-21 14:08:19 16188
M 2012-10-21 13:58:33 16188
We've argued over & over politics from many sides. It goes nowhere. Give it a rest or not. I have the other item linked to one of Nathan's blog articles.  I composed the comment in fastblogit because it is easier to edit & compose my thoughts here than in Wordpress.  I prefer it not get linked to our politics. It's not power or any of that other shit you got angry about. Politics has very little to do with our personal ontologies; it's more our public identities. All the amped up rhetoric & polarity in the political arena has little to do with what we were talking about on the other item except that the universe is all connected.


strawman.   nobody was suggesting arguing about politics. 
You brought up Obama somewhere along the way - that's politics. I think you may have gotten rid of it in one of your later edits, but the smell was still there. 
Look - politics is a very low level occupation & endeavor with appeal to some of the lowest instincts in the masses.  Everyone is assumed to be right in their own vote. It brings out the worst elements related to both Ahriman (control of other people) & Lucifer (self-serving egomania). While I had hoped to stimulate something that would move towards the 3-fold commonwealth, even in those domains in Facebook it's not happening fast enough to expect much rise in the levels of discussion or human being before I quit the physical corporeality.
Sometimes it brings up an inner disgust similar to what you might get imagining a felch smoothie with chunks of aromatic vomit mixed in with semen & liquid feces; deep fried puss & bird droppings topping the culinary delight.   Your mileage may differ!


Seth says
seth 2012-10-21 12:01:54 16188
M 2012-10-21 11:44:37 16188
seth 2012-10-21 11:41:33 16188
M 2012-10-21 11:32:35 16188
This is the last argument I will put somewhere else. THe rest will be deleted w/o notice. The context of politics ruins the nice gentle ontology & analogy going on the other item.
Seth
source: ... Politics is part of our world and this predicament of which we talk here ... like it or not.  Politics  is where things get amped up and distorted.  It is also an excellent example of where "the medum" affects the original spirit-heart-felt inspiration. 

I have no intention of trying to push any political adgenda here in this item, which i acknowledge is not about that.  But missing my point, or rejecting my example,  just because i mentioned politics ... does me a great disservice.
...
Rather than move my arguments around to obsure my message ... why don't you instead understand my message and just choose a different example.   What you actually have done, strangely enough, is to exemplify the very distortion against which you have noticed.


NOPE! What I have done is preserve some of the purity of my own item.  If you want to discuss this bunch of politics, fine, put it somewhere else.  I exemplified how you garbaged my item with politics by putting your stuff here.

Fine, then don't discuss the politics.  Reframe my message with your own example. 

... but obstructing my message just because you object to politics is eliminating (and corrupting)  my contribution to you item ....in other words RWG feedback contributing to distortions in the medium ... almost exactly the way negative feedback minght corrupt a audio signal piped into a microphone.

Mark de LA says
While never stating exactly what truth is, Rudolph Steiner opens up a lot with two kinds of truth arrived at by different means:
Metamorphosis of the Soul (Mission of Truth): ... So we have these two distinct kinds of truth, one reached by creative thought, the other by reflective thought. This latter kind, derived from the investigation of existent things or current experience, will always lead to abstractions; under its influence the soul is deprived of nourishment and tends to dry up. The truth that is not gained from immediate experience is creative; its strength helps man to find a place in the world where he can co-operate in shaping the future.
... & finally unites them together in the deed:
Mission of Truth (RS): ... When as a young man, Goethe was beginning to work on Faust, and had occasion to introduce some translations from the Bible, he decided that the words “In the beginning was the Word”, should be rendered as “in the beginning was the Deed”. At this same time he wrote a fragment on Prometheus. 28 ] There we see the young Goethe as altogether active and Promethean, confident that simply by developing his own forces, not fructified by cosmic wisdom, he could progress. In his maturity, with a long experience of life behind him, he realised that it was wrong to underestimate the Word, and that Word and Deed must be united. In fact, Goethe revised parts of his Faust while he was writing his Pandora. We can understand how Goethe came by degrees to maturity only if we realise the nature of truth in all its forms.
... In this lecture he goes for what he calls a higher truth & 2 kinds of truth: reflective & creative. Draw your own conclusions or dare not. Wisdom seems to be that which is external to man, as an active truth. All in all there is a lot here that Seth should appreciate, or not.




Seth says
M 2012-10-23 00:04:23 16188
seth 2012-10-22 20:28:39 16188
M 2012-10-22 19:48:26 16188
seth 2012-10-22 19:01:55 16188
M 2012-10-22 18:52:30 16188
seth 2012-10-22 18:35:57 16188
M 2012-10-22 17:55:39 16188
You still have an absolute truth bug-a-boo.
Oh ... how so?
I never mentioned absolute truth except to disabuse you of the notion that that is what I am looking for.  Yet it keeps showing up in your discourse on truth.

good ... then i guess then we both agree that there is no absolute truth that any person can know and express. 
Again the bug-a-boo! I don't even know what you mean by that!

RS referred to the same thing above this way:  "... eminent poets and thinkers have rightly claimed that full possession of truth is beyond human reach". 
Yep, he said others said that - so .  Answer the question or not.


The thing is, all we have to depend on is our own experiences ... and how we express those experiences to each other.  When the expressions match (are coherent with) the experience, we call that a truth.  Some of those matches are better than others.  So how do we find the best one?  Point is we don't ... there is no authoritative person or process that we can consult.  That authoritative person or process from which we could obtain the best truth is nowhere to be found ... but if we ever could find such a person or process we could know that perfect expression and that is what i would call "absolute truth".

There is actually quite a bit of information about this on the web under "absolute truth" ... though, to be honest with you, i could find none of it that was expressed exactly to my likening ... otherwise i would have pointed to it directly.  I suppose that finding the right term to use and consulting an authoritative philosophy source might get you closer than just a search of every wierdo's website.  Not having the time to do that, i wrote the paragraph above off the top of my head.

Seth says
Let me correct that slightly.  Language is usually implicated when we talk about truth ... but not always ... it's possible that some relationship can be expressed without the use of language ... perhaps in music, or dance.  And then there are those pesky experiences for which there are no words ... there may, at times, be ways to express those as well.  To me, truth always does require something that is expressed ... which is not to demean those experiences that are not expressed ... its just that those don't include the necessary element that the word (almost grammatically) requires.   If you mentographed it, there would be something dangling.

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-10-22 18:52:23 16188
M 2012-10-22 18:50:02 16188
seth 2012-10-22 18:03:10 16188
Let me correct that slightly.  Language is usually implicated when we talk about truth ... but not always ... it's possible that some relationship can be expressed without the use of language ... perhaps in music, or dance.  And then there are those pesky experiences for which there are no words ... there may, at times, be ways to express those as well.  To me, truth always does require something that is expressed ... which is not to demean those experiences that are not expressed ... its just that those don't include the necessary element that the word (almost grammatically) requires.   If you mentographed it, there would be something dangling.
& then there is that truth that you behold on your own & do not necessarily communicate to another.


... sure, we expreess things to ourselves all the time ... sometimes we even lie to ourselves. 
Speak for yourself!


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-10-23 14:01:35 16188
M 2012-10-23 13:02:33 16188
Well, we appear to be running around in old circles. RS speaks of a higher truth not a better truth. He has a hierarchical approach. There is truth from one perspective & then there is truth for a nation & on up to mankind etc.  As such there is no better one.
I have offered more than once that a lie could be thought of as valid because it is the way someone wishes from his perspective that things were. That however is what I would call a degenerate hierarchy of one. RS also speaks as if truth is outside the person who is seeking it.

most of what you are talking there is about context ... it is a different dimension than the dimension that on the one side is totally false and on the other side is totally true and in the middle is just expressions we feel are better or worse.

the rest of your comment is, as far as i can determine, just an attempt not to grapple with the real point of better truth. 

I give up.
Yep , me too! ***

Seth says
M 2012-10-22 16:56:50 16188
seth 2012-10-22 16:09:08 16188
M 2012-10-22 15:21:12 16188
seth 2012-10-22 14:34:52 16188
source: RS in The Mission of Truth
"A higher truth must be the aim of man's endeavour, while he treats anger as an enemy to be increasingly abolished. He must love truth and feel himself most intimately united with it. Nevertheless, eminent poets and thinkers have rightly claimed that full possession of truth is beyond human reach. Lessing, [ 21 ] for example, says that pure truth is not for men, but only a perpetual striving towards it. He speaks of truth as a distant goddess whom men may approach but never reach."
  I think i have said that very same thing in about 10 different ways.  Only difference is i have adopted the word "better" and he uses the word "higher".  I like my word better ... it doesn't carry with it as much baggage and assumptions.
I thought you would like that. The last part is from Lessing. He uses Lessing as somewhat of a strawman for more of his 2 kinds of truth discourse.  Open up to the idea that there is something more than "I was Right Game" .  I found lots.


For me, this has never been about an "I am right" game.  Rather it has been about trying to get you to accept the concept of language statements being made better and better and not to mock the idea of it.  Perhaps all that was necessary was that you would hear it from somebody who you respect.

Thanks for the reference.
... funny thing is that there is nothing in the lecture really on language statements, or better etc. - it has more to do with how much the person's Ego is involved in the seeking for truth. RS speaks of truth as if it is external to the seeker.
RS(ibid): ... An example from everyday life has shown us, that if a man fails to realise how much his personal standpoint or point of departure influences his views, he will arrive at narrow opinions, not at the truth. This is apparent also on a wider scale. Anyone who looks at the true spiritual evolution of mankind, and compares all the various “truths” that have arisen in the course of time, will find �" if he looks deeply enough �" that when people pronounce a “truth” they ought first of all to get away from their individual outlooks.
...  that bolded bit I think you don't think is possible.


Language is how we "pronounce a truth" ... language is how we communicate ... it is implicated whenever we talk about truth.  There were many places in RS lecture when he was referring to language but did not need to call it out specifically.

The bolded sentence is also something that i have talked about.  Said differently it just means that to arrive at a better truth we try as best we can to be objective and not merely take a point of view to which we are personally accustomed.

Si says
Hummmm … seems like back in 2012 you knew a better truth than the one you often talk about today.   yes

Seth says
who me? … my concept of a “better truth” has evolved some over the years, it is true … and i have said it in many different ways … always being provoked by mark …. but the essence of it has remained.   so i am not quite sure what you are saying or who you are saying it to and in what context you are speaking.

Si says
Simply answering to the main thought. It is spot on, though not seemingly the exact way you (Seth) have talked about truth of late. I have not read the rest of the comments .. too cluttered.

Mark de LA says
pondering Hmmm…. how much do you want to haggle & doubt  – wiggle & waver when you obviously must always have to say to yourself:

I’m sure there is a better truth out there somewhere .


Seth says
surprise wow … i just reread the main body of my thought here … and OMG, it is almost verbatim what i said yesterday to you about relative truth.  so i still have no idea why you like this description better than the one i gave yesterday to you.   can you drill that down to a specific difference for me?

Seth says
omg yes, i love to find better and better truths … i am never satisfied … and even when something seems so very very true to me now, i know there is a better, more inclusive way to look at it just around the corner.

thanks for noticing smug

Si says
smiley And I don't haggle, I simply tell it like it is ... for that is the truth. heart

(yours may differ)

 ~ the tig – facilitating your changes to your reality

Si says

Si says
Sorry, not exciting right now. Not sure it was yesterday's either, more like things you have said that tied truth to creating your own reality anyway. And is not important, this one here is spot on ... don't need to hash it when it's right. angel

Seth says
in my concept of realtive truth i stopped using the definite article, “the” in preference to the indefinite article,  “a”.    so you will not (unless i am mistaken or sloppy) hear me referring to my truth as “the truth” but rather as “a truth” or “my truth” or “that hangs together well over here” … that way i don’t even need to say “yours may differ”, because then that fact is implied by the language itself wink

i just edited my paragraph to make it a better truth.  smug …. and again smugsmug

Si says

Si says
Subtle language nuances like that don't seem to make it over into Mark's usual verses ... so I am more direct when he is in the loop.

Seth says
mark is strange sometimes … he seemed to grock the essence of seeking a better truth … yet he referred to it as “haggeling” and seemed to imply that he had already gone beyond such processes and could himself go right to the truth.   that was the meaning of his comment to me. 

so i must presume (and perhaps he wants me to) that he is refering to PR’s  “direct truth” model where direct knowledge of the spiritual world has been obtained which, (“of course” grin),  can not be improved upon. 

Holmes says

Mark de LA says
at some point one has to act with insufficient information or on a partial truth.  For me there is only the facts at the time. They may change. Better is a judgment call that only history may offer up some day & most likely make less clear or turn your facts into lies.

Mark de LA says
laughing & sometimes waiting yields more errors & a worse truth (if you got better, you also got worse).

Seth says
well all of that hangs true over here to me too yes.

i think you are looking at the aspects of truth that bear on deeds and action … i am looking at the aspects that bear only on the qualia of truth itself … on my awareness of that qualia, quite apart from any action or deed that may or may not get provoked by my awareness. 

for example the “act” in question could be my writing this comment here.  just as you say i am going with my feelings of truth at the moment …no hesitation or haggeling that i know of …  and trying to continue to write true sentences to you about our topic here.   i am trying to see what you are saying to me in this context beyond that  … and not seeing it yet.

Seth says

Si says
A partial truth can become a full truth simply by thinking on it more. Facts are just the things that stick after you have provided sufficient thought on them for them to reproduce in your beliefs on their own. Since a lie is only a "deliberate misrepresentation of something", I don't see how a lie can enter here in this scope. Lies can only happen where humans interact deliberately.

 ~ the tig – facilitating your changes to your reality

Mark de LA says
I am only concerned that the language conveying the truth to others be congruent with that which IS!  (dully qualified by particulars like time, space & observer specs. etc) Whether it feels good or not is your problem, not mine. 

Si says
Well that which is is that which you perceive, right? What else could it be? If you convey that authentically to others then all is well and true right? They will always know it by what they perceive anyway, no matter how well you phrase it to match your perception, right?

Seth says
well the more i think a true thought and change it to become better and better the truer it feels to me … that i experience quite frequently.  it is actually what i do here at fastblogit.  at some point i might think, enough improvement is enough, and even continue to think it … when that happens i do notice that my feeling of truth itself deepens and i will even see more and more how it is true to me.   of course in my mind it can never become anything but just “a partial truth”. 

but i do have a thingey that i do.  because i love how my truth rings to me, i love to keep thinking (reading and rereading) my thoughts and notice their qualia of truth to me getting stronger and stronger.  it does feel really good … er, almost too good … almost like masterbating … so i tend to stop after a point and not cum myself into absolution laughing.  

i do not ever, as nathan might be implying,  think that re-thinking true thoughts make them obtain better  for anybody but myself. 

Si says

Seth says

Mark de LA says
Well it all depends whether you thinking is capable of unbiased observation or whether you are just churning the same material around with different words.  PR’s distinction contemplation might be of some help. (see BofNK). Then too an injured brain or other imbalance is no guarantee of improvement.

Si says
I never said any such thing, and wouldn't. I have always said that truths are local to verses and sharing them is a convenience, not like sharing a jucy steak or anything like that! rose

Someday you might get how this all works for me ... one base of it is that "we never obtain for others" even though that we do is your most common objection to the idea that we create our own reality. If we are creating our own reality, then they are also creating theirs ... no obtaining of any kind, only cross pollinating. laugh

Seth says
surprise wow, then we are pretty much seeing eye to eye to eye on this matter rose yesyes

though how is it unlike “sharing a jucy steak”  ?? … it feels quite jucy to me, my toothlessness notwistanding laugh

i love your meme, “We never obtain for others!” ← yesyesyesyesyes

Si says
Sharing truth is more like sharing a broom. It's for housekeeping of your verse. Juicy steaks are for direct experience only, sharing one across verses would be like sharing a blog entry ... better to directly manifest one each and share the sharing!

You could do one up in a vita-mix I suppose. pondering

Seth says

Si says
Easy enough to know Mark. If it feels exciting, then you are on the right track. Even if the track is churning, it is still the right track for that moment and you and the excitement is telling you it is true and so for you. laugh

Si says

Seth says
pondering … hmmm … this is the first time i have heard “a truth qualia” associated directly with nathan’s “excitement qualia”.  So maybe those are the same thing?

Si says
Truth and excitement are very different things. Truth is simply a thought you keep thinking until it is true for you, until it attracts so much of the same that you can't help but believe it.

Excitement is an emotion telling you that you are thinking thoughts in alignment with you and the cumulation of all your desires and ideals. Your on the right track no matter how logical it seems, it's right, for you.

Mark said churning thoughts, which implies perceived useless or unproductive activity. I am simply saying that if it is exciting, then it is not useless or unproductive, it is exactly right for you, weather it is a truth you are pursuing, or anything else. But exciting does not mean true or visa versa, they are different, though when you do them together they do complement each other. smiley

Si says
I like that you equate truthing to masturbating, because it is much like that. Truthing is you getting closer to your truth, that which best matches your being. It is not necessarily true for another, unless they go through the same motions you are going through on their own, then it could be the same.

In fact, that is essentially what the scientific process is all about, sharing steps and procedures with others so that others can reproduce the thoughts, thus the experience, and reach the same happy ending point. There are a billion ways to build a bridge that is beautiful, works great, and lasts a long time. Scientific engineering is not the only one, but simply one that is easy to share in our current thought models for reality. smiley

Seth says

Seth says

Si says
And if you believe that (and you should).

Then ... Eating a Vagina Cures Cancer According to Cancer Treatment Studies  might be a good daily practice!

Seth says
huh? … i don’t get that connection.

Si says

Si says
Conversation forked to thought 21222

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