Rolled over fom item 16221

M: 2012-09-30 11:44:16
The HTML on this [item 16221] is effed up!
source: ...
If I were to say: "this statement is a better statement than that one" ... i will bet that Mark would have no complaint.  In essence that is all I am saying when i say this is a better truth than that.
... Nope! It forces the question "better in what way?"  ... that's part of the Meta Model of NLP - precision in language.

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M: 2012-09-30 11:56:26


Seth: ... "Absolute truth", "knowledge apart from opinion", "what is so", "the natural world apart from interpretation", "God's eye view" ... to me those are all the terms referring to the same thing and it doesn't matter which we use just that we agree that we are talking about the same thingey.

... nice try!  Conflating all other distinctions to agree with your own muddles the language & makes the discussion moot (for you). There is nothing particularly useful in this discussion. After it is over you will still not be able to access exactly what is so in the Universe because your belief will act as a wall & I will keep on trying if not occasionally succeeding. 
     From my zen studies there was an exercise to meditate or contemplate a rose in a glass vase with some water in it at the table in front of the room. Peter charged us "to experience the rose as itself for itself" & not from our own point of view.  (I'm pretty sure Seth would have argued with the zen master at that point ). The experiment was not without some results. Clue #1 you have to throw away almost all your concepts & knowledge about flowers, roses, plants, colors .....etc to even get a grip.

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Comments


Mark de LA says
Wasn't trying to be grumpy or insulting. You kind hinted at it in your statement above. Believers in a materialistic world without any soul or spiritual connections usually don't bridge the gap between their model & experience. There's nothing like directly experiencing the taste of an apple and a bunch of electrons running around in the low-priced meat computer. They just don't have the same texture or properties. There is also a chicken & egg problem with that model.  Which causes which? The soul/spirit experiencing the apple taste making the electrons move or visa versa.  Monism vs Dualism is a very dry subject.  Too many books, theoreticians & schools.  I quit thinking that way when I was 19.
One believes in unity the other in a material-soul duality.

Mark de LA says
Well, Seth - I've expressed myself several & many times.  If you want to know what I said READ what I said. Your reinterpretations mostly miss the mark. But, then maybe that proves your point. If you can't even read what I wrote & always have your own interpretation then you live in a dualistic, personal world.  Nothing metaphysical or occult needs be brought up! Read the history of the monism vs dualism philosophy clashes of previous centuries.



Mark de LA says
This latter 4th world can be observed by asking an open ended question that you don't have a raise your hand in class answer to, be present to NOW, want to know and tell the inner voice voice to STFU & wait.  Something always shows up. Acknowledge it & ask again & again.  At some point you may get an AHA! if you are genuine in your wanting to know.  Follow up with where did that aha come from?


Mark de LA says
Dualism interacts with the Universe with the observer constrained.  Monism & Zen unity of it all holds all open to the possibility of consciousness including God if she wants to reveal herself.
For the folks not in the cheap seats leaning toward neural networks ask yourself where do answers come from? There is the outer world of sensation, the inner world of body sensation, the world of mind & then the world of ? where the answers come from (imho) - my distinction. NOW is 4-fold.

Lisa Cox says
M 2012-10-01 06:28:41 16232
snip
have your own interpretation then you live in a dualistic, personal world.  [snip] Read the history of the monism vs dualism philosophy clashes of previous centuries.



I've read some Heraclitus, but I'm ignorant of most of the others.  Would your belief system happen to be more like "2. Neutral monism" than the other two?
snip Nothing metaphysical or occult needs be brought up!
I know I'm showing my hardening of my mental arteries here and maybe I'm being too literal, but doesn't that wikipedia entry classify monism and dualism AS metaphysical?  I thought just talking about stuff like this brings up the metaphysical?

Lisa Cox says
M 2012-10-01 07:10:25 16232
This latter 4th world can be observed by asking an open ended question that you don't have a raise your hand in class answer to, be present to NOW, want to know and tell the inner voice voice to STFU & wait.  Something always shows up. Acknowledge it & ask again & again.  At some point you may get an AHA! if you are genuine in your wanting to know.  Follow up with where did that aha come from?


From my personal belief system, I can accept that.  From my experience trying to talk about my work with others in my schools and departments, I stay far away from that because I don't want to get verbally beat up.  There are just some things they do not want to hear.

Lisa Cox says
M 2012-10-01 07:03:22 16232
snip
For the folks not in the cheap seats leaning toward neural networks

Lisa Cox says
Lisa Cox 2012-10-01 14:56:39 16232
M 2012-10-01 07:03:22 16232
snip
For the folks not in the cheap seats leaning toward neural networks

Sorry.  That was another boo boo on formatting.
I did have another smarta$$ question, though. 
If you believe in monism, do you get extra points for being insulting, or is there some other explanation? (I don't see a grumpy emoticon.  I'm too tired to work up to "angry", so "grumpy" would be more accurate.)

Mark de LA says
M 2012-10-02 08:36:37 16232
Those of the scientific material bent will call that otherness your ego: just a bunch of electrons(*) running around in the low priced meat computer brain of yours - nothing important except to your particular bunch in your particular computer IP.

... (*) more specifically an electro-chemical storm

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-10-02 08:12:40 16232
There is no duality except for where there obviously is

My face looks totally different looked upon from the outside, than it does looking out ... same for the taste of an apple compared to what you deride as "a bunch of electrons running around in the low-priced meat computer".  For me there is only one world ... but that world is divided by otherness ... it is all in points of view.

Sorry, i just had to say that ... now back to my work.
Well you can reduce it down to this if you want to - works for me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuFvx7vN_pU


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-10-02 09:53:51 16232
M 2012-10-02 09:28:06 16232
seth 2012-10-02 09:05:51 16232
M 2012-10-02 08:51:50 16232
M 2012-10-02 08:36:37 16232
Those of the scientific material bent will call that otherness your ego: just a bunch of electrons(*) running around in the low priced meat computer brain of yours - nothing important except to your particular bunch in your particular computer IP.

... (*) more specifically an electro-chemical storm
No change ... you are still deriding it.   Some people do.  Others don't.  Some people love the firmament. 

 Some people confuse the firmament with some mathematical model they learned in school which was designed to predict things that happen there ... but is not those things.  There is nothing, imho, more beautiful than the human brain.  To think that the human brain is the study of the human brain with instruments is to be confused.
Yep! you missed the point! no hope! Derision is in your mind because the you are stuck in duality.

huh?
Thats one of the most frequent responses of yours. Ponder harder. If you were a total materialist you wouldn't see derision because you would just  identify with all the electrons moving around in your brain showing up as thoughts. I've used the term "low-priced meat computer" to refer to the human brain for the last 40+ years since people began to think they could get AI out of  silicon chips & complex electronics. It's just a contrast thingy. Duality just accentuates the abyss between soul-spirit & the electro-chemics however contextualized .


Seth says
M 2012-10-02 09:28:06 16232
seth 2012-10-02 09:05:51 16232
M 2012-10-02 08:51:50 16232
M 2012-10-02 08:36:37 16232
Those of the scientific material bent will call that otherness your ego: just a bunch of electrons(*) running around in the low priced meat computer brain of yours - nothing important except to your particular bunch in your particular computer IP.

... (*) more specifically an electro-chemical storm
No change ... you are still deriding it.   Some people do.  Others don't.  Some people love the firmament. 

 Some people confuse the firmament with some mathematical model they learned in school which was designed to predict things that happen there ... but is not those things.  There is nothing, imho, more beautiful than the human brain.  To think that the human brain is the study of the human brain with instruments is to be confused.
Yep! you missed the point! no hope! Derision is in your mind because the you are stuck in duality.

huh?