Obama & his Fiscal Advisors

Via the pool report:

President Obama and Vice President Biden met with leaders of civil rights and civic organizations to discuss negotiations over how to avoid the fiscal cliff. The meeting lasted over an hour, and participants spoke to reporters outside the West Wing after they wrapped up.

Per the White House, expected attendees included:

* Peter Berns, The Arc
* Sister Simone Campbell, NETWORK
* Chad Griffin, Human Rights Campaign(HRC)
* Wade Henderson, Leadership Conference on Civil Rights(LCCR)
* Deepa Iyer,National Council of Asian Pacific Americans (NCAPA)
* Ben Jealous, NAACP 

* Marc Morial, National Urban League
* Janet Murguia, National Council of La Raza(NCLR)
* Barry Rand, AARP
* Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner, MomsRising.org
* Rev. Al Sharpton, National Action Network(NAN)
* Aaron Smith, Young Invincibles
* Rev. Jim Wallis, Sojourners


  1. puppeteers
  2. venn vs mentography


Seth says
M 2012-11-17 11:48:53 16302
seth 2012-11-17 10:43:51 16302
Adding the CEO's who who came to the white house the next day will giver you a broader and  less partisan study.
Got the info?  I already included the Venn for some of the cronies.

Obama Meets With CEOs as He Seeks Leverage in Debt Negotiations

Mark de LA says
M 2012-11-17 08:02:00 16302
We need an app to sort out things like this to drill down through a cloud of venn-like diagrams  & associations:

Seth says
(ER) Entity relationship diagrams are in essence labeled directed graphs ... they are just a different style. 

The square Venn diagram is kewl ... particularly for its quadratic symmetry.   I have found that few real relationships are quite so very symmetric ... rather they are gangly and amorphous.

Mark de LA says
Years ago when I had a similar idea to track associations registered with the government the number occupied a DVD - there are millions.  Nothing wrong with that, freedom of association is guaranteed by the first amendment.  The magnitude of the database is huge & some like ACORN etc change their names & reform & die out.
Knowing who is associated with what organizations helps us understand who is pulling the pupiteer strings of politics & economics.

Mark de LA says
Wow! Always argumentalism.
Nobody said it was complete. A complete one would be so big that we would realize that government is out of control. Your argumentalism sustains the idea that GIGO is still around with just more opportunity for input.

Seth says
M 2012-11-18 09:17:07 16302
seth 2012-11-18 08:50:00 16302
M 2012-11-18 07:53:55 16302
seth 2012-11-18 07:49:18 16302
M 2012-11-17 13:41:26 16302
seth 2012-11-17 13:10:08 16302
M 2012-11-17 11:51:02 16302
seth 2012-11-17 10:56:26 16302
M 2012-11-17 08:28:16 16302
M 2012-11-17 08:02:00 16302
We need an app to sort out things like this to drill down through a cloud of venn-like diagrams  & associations:

Venn diagrams and loose associations will yield the gigo phenomena.  Labeled directed relationships would be more accurate.
That doesn't solve the GIGO phenomena at all. The accuracy of the information provided is always in need of vetting.

i think more precise labeling of relationships will in fact improve the gigo phenomena.  examples could be easily provided.  venn diagrams are just binary thinking.  labeled relationships are much closer to reality.  the gigo phenomena is another symptom of binary thinking.
So you say without proof.

Well choose any example you want .... you do the ven part .... i'll improve it with a mentograph.  Bear in mind that i would need to have access to the original material as my mentograph will contain more information than your ven diagram will ... it will tell a larger story in more detail.   it would show that the mentograph was closer to the being than the ven diagram. 
Being won't show up in a diagram.

... true. 

all signs and all language are reference to being ... the being gets represented in your mind when you parse and interpret the signs and tokens of the language.   Why are you bringing up  that  commonly known fact about how language works in this context?
Because you are using the word being incorrectly. You can't represent being, it just IS! You can perhaps represent facts etc - maybe use that word instead.

If i see the tracks of a lion in the dirt, then those tracks represent the lion in my mind.   Above, i am using the term "being" just simply to mean anything that *is* ... rather than that which just represents what is.  Switch it to whatever other term in your mind that means the same thing.  Please don't dismiss the essence of my comment just because i used a word differently than you do ... especially if it is not a difference that is important to the point.

Mark de LA says
Mainly I am inspired by Discoverthenetworks.org which does a good introduction to the technology that the public can use. Build your own for right-wing and libertarians. It's not complete either. I still like tetraks & higher order geometric lattices as navigational tools instead of just links.

Mark de LA says
I have tools which create this kind of Entity-Relationship diagram (ER)

Mark de LA says
Yep Seth is famous for making up words & using words differently than other people.  We have gone too deep into the RWG & it has nothing to do with the subject of the item .... so please quit!

Mark de LA says
The flowchart version (ER) is kinda boring but works. But, I have used it many times.

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-11-19 07:12:39 16302
M 2012-11-19 06:36:29 16302
seth 2012-11-19 06:18:23 16302
My only point here is that data of the type  {A x Y} is better, being closer to reality, than data of the type {A is B}.   Note that the copula in the latter is fixed to just one relationship, and is the kind of data that is  represented in Venn diagrams.
There may be entities & there may be relationships as data in the lefthand venn diagram & higher dimensions.

I have no idea what that means .... what it has to do with my point which was quoted ... what it has to do with the new diagram ... or why it is "".  

Could you put more meet on some of those bones ?
Well, I met you obscure notation with a visual.
You can have entities & you can have relationships both as nouns or things in the diagram spaces; somewhat as the sample diagrams I first provided. I like the diagram, it's cool "".

Seth says
M 2012-11-18 15:39:21 16302
seth 2012-11-18 14:09:16 16302
M 2012-11-18 11:19:15 16302
seth 2012-11-18 10:31:06 16302
So then do you agree with "Venn diagrams and loose associations will yield the gigo phenomena.  Labeled directed relationships would be more accurate" ?
Nope! ... just more overhead to triage. GIGO is just a phenomena of research needing careful attention & weeding.  The form of output such as mentography is just as susceptible to it as others such as Venn.

well ... my point was that  "loose associations" (garbage in) drawn in a venn diagram, will yield  conclusions that are  (garbage out).  The same happens with a mentograph ... the only difference is that you are required to input the relationships as well ... more input and undderstanding is required to draw the diagram ... hence it is more accurate ... it encodes (represents) a larger part of the situation.  if you actually work out an example ... who knows ... perhaps you will see.
Perhaps you missed the venn example I put up in the beginning.  Here is is again:
Notice that the join is people who are in both domains; both government & the crony area wanting government preferences. 
Study it, enjoy it!

That is not a good example because they are actually  relational lists and not a actual ven diagrams at all ...  but they have been drawn as a ven diagram.   Extract the information from one instance and write it as a triple an you should be able to see.  There are no instances proveded of people who have not had dual roles in either private sector or government ... yet the venn diagram implies that there are.   Then too, only examples of democrats are given, obviously justifying the republican buzz word "crony capitalism" ... yet the same kind of instances could be found during a republican administration. 

A more useful picture of the revolving door, would be a list of people labeled with the specific roles that played in government, and then in the private sector, and also showing the time the role was held, and their political affiliations.  Point is, it is not a ven diagram, but rather just relational data. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-11-20 13:42:57 16302
Mark 2012-11-20 13:08:55 16302
seth 2012-11-20 09:26:54 16302
Mark 2012-11-20 08:23:56 16302
seth 2012-11-20 08:15:12 16302
Mark 2012-11-20 07:57:19 16302
The District of Corruption Movie - more on the kleptocracy in the U.S. Capital.

I'm sure there is some truth in this so called "documentary" ... might have been more convincing if they also included the financial sectors "ownership" of the government ... not to mention the control of it by the war industry.  The whole story is better than just part of it.  Listening to a one sided story makes me feel uneasy. 
.. &/or the number of communists & communist thinkers in government as well (to balance yours of course).

... sure ... knowing the total dynamic and all the forces fighting with each other for control is definitely better than any narrower vies.  It is very complex.  Simplify with the peril of missing an important element.  Timing is also a big factor ... short term change ... vs ... long term ...  and what practically can be done now ... vs where ideally we should be.

I think America is now and will continue to be a bastion of freedom .. politically and economically.   I don't want that to change.  You don't want that to change.   I think the bulk of Americans don't want that to change.    Still and all shit gets out of whach when left totally to that freedom ... especially in the modern world ... which is different than the world of the early 20th century.   Me thinks all of that needs to go into the hopper.
Shit gets out of whack when governments try to control freedom & control markets for their own pointy-headed purposes in a grab for money & power. The problem now is too little freedom vs too much freedom. Re-read the communist manifesto ten planks & search your soul to see how close we are to losing freedom & going backwards to 1848!

Yes that is one side of the coin.  Ask the question: what if there were no government control and regulation in the economic sphere at all ?   Describe the situation in your own terms.  Perhaps reading some books by Sinclair might refresh your memory.  People who have the power of wealth are not necessarily benign ... assuming that they will be, is not just a little bit naive.
Ask yourself what private enterprise racked up a 4 trillion debt without the ability to pay it off & decided to steal from his fellows to pay it off for him? Not all sides of the coin have equal value in an argument. Try reading :

Common Wealth

For a Free, Equal, Mutual and Sustainable Society

Martin Large

ISBN: 978-1-903458-98-3, £15.00
234 × 156mm

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