Fooling We the People Again & Again

About: u.s. national debt clock : real time

Funny thing about the budget negotiations & that is all of the details. Look out for:
->->(*)

Tags

  1. negotiation
  2. collective awareness

Comments


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-11-30 07:08:21 16316
might be fun to watch the actual negations ... what chips are on the table on both sides?   make up the chunks and move them in and out of the final deal.   each chunk would be tagged with who supports and who opposes.   strangely enough the whole thing could be done with tags here.  if it worked, you could use the databases to make a nifty human interface.
Nice idea! Imho, the ruling class which includes Congress, loses its power if they have to work in the light of day. If you expect to know where the money goes that goes into D.C. , where no real budget gets passed, you may be under a serious delusion. Remember that back in the Clinton era the budgets didn't even decompose; too much stuff was off-budget or in multiple years with overlapping areas of responsibility.  The public will be lucky if they know what is proposed before it is voted on, & Congress will be lucky if they are able to read it before they vote on it; midnioght deadlines on New Years Eve notwithstanding.   Precedents have already been set for 3-card-Monty game of government spending.  It would be interesting if the M$M actually did their job & gathered the facts. It would be even more interesting if the new media had enough spies in government to get reliable, nonpartisan data.  Imho, real negotiation is an art which is not necessarily a rational process.


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-11-30 08:53:55 16316
Good analysis, for once, we our thinking is aligned

It does kind of make me think about the quality of our collective awareness ... and how we can improve it.  The new communication technology ... and its trend to become social ... does give us some tools that were not available 20 years ago.   Individual awareness is great, and necessary, and paramount ... but it is not the same thing as our collective awareness.  Some people fight the latter ... disparage it ... or corrupt it ... or try to ignore it.  Me, i don't think that is a good idea.  It will grow, regardless ... might just as well help it grow right.
I doubt such a thing exists on the basis that there must also be a collective ego to sense it. Otherwise all you have is a bunch of individual egos running around being aware in their own little ways. Sure you can create or imagine a set: a gross of eggs or a basket of turds - but so what?
, (skeptic)

Seth says
M 2012-12-01 12:21:15 16316
seth 2012-11-30 08:53:55 16316
Good analysis, for once, we our thinking is aligned

It does kind of make me think about the quality of our collective awareness ... and how we can improve it.  The new communication technology ... and its trend to become social ... does give us some tools that were not available 20 years ago.   Individual awareness is great, and necessary, and paramount ... but it is not the same thing as our collective awareness.  Some people fight the latter ... disparage it ... or corrupt it ... or try to ignore it.  Me, i don't think that is a good idea.  It will grow, regardless ... might just as well help it grow right.
I doubt such a thing exists on the basis that there must also be a collective ego to sense it. Otherwise all you have is a bunch of individual egos running around being aware in their own little ways. Sure you can create or imagine a set: a gross of eggs or a basket of turds - but so what?
, (skeptic)

a flock of birds flying

Well each individual awareness of something can be chronicled and counted and put in a set ... also each individual awareness of each those awareness can also be chronicled and counted.  Certainly you must acknowledge that those sets of things (processes) exist.  I am just calling those sets "our collective awareness".   I can understand your skepticism, but not about those particular things.

When you say "there must also be a collective ego to sense it", i think you are looking for something that feels very much like the spirit ego body which forms part of our individual beings.  Well i think we will find that there is just as very much sharable evidence for the former as there is for the latter.   Bear in mind that while you can in your own being sense your own spirit ego body, you cannot yourself sense our collective awareness ... because you are not that all encompassing thing.  You can, however, sense every single transaction that you participate in ... that is your part of the whole.  

Now, you certainly can believe in the whole gestalt or not believe in it.  That is the nature of patterns ... they are not necessarily in the things themselves ... rather they are beauty in the eye of the beholder.   Me, i can see my own consciousness as just such a pattern ... i see no rational reason not to believe in the larger pattern.

Thanks for actually seeing my point, not twisting it, and in fact adding to it  ... whether you believe in the pattern or not is just your own thing ... do what you will ... but of course you don't need me to tell you that .


Mark de LA says
If you have scientific evidence that you can read another's mind & describe the contents of his/her awareness let me know (with documentation), otherwise what you are describing is a pool of collective babble.
Furthermore with more communication, faster viz. twitter, facebook, fastblogit & elsewhere on the Internet, without considerable improvement in individual consciousnesses, nothing forcasts improvements in the collective - just faster decay.
(still skeptic)

Seth says
M 2012-12-02 12:38:53 16316
seth 2012-12-02 11:22:28 16316
M 2012-12-02 11:07:44 16316
seth 2012-12-02 10:52:57 16316
M 2012-12-02 10:35:36 16316
If you have scientific evidence that you can read another's mind & describe the contents of his/her awareness let me know (with documentation),

Well there is absolutely nothing in "the quality of our collective awareness ... and how we can improve it" about reading another's mind.  It is not necessary.  You speak, i listen and interpret your words ... that is is the communication that constitutes what is in the set of our collective awareness. 

What might be interesting is for me to understand why you thought that would need to be in there.   Why would that be an important feature of collective awareness for you?
Well then you have an unreal concept.  Maybe you should ask how would you improve the quality of a collective awareness if you can't find a collective awareness. 

... so, now you don't mention "mind reading" at all ... yet you declare the concept "unreal" without telling me how is is unreal.  You then declare that I "cant find a collective awareness" yet i have indicated exactly the set of things that goes into it.   
Perhaps you should distinguish a collection of consciousnesses from a collective conscience or a collective awareness - they are not the same .  [snip]


Well this all started by me reading you analysis of how faulty our awareness of how the budget is handled  in Washington and how our tax money is spent without public accountability.    Our awareness of that obviously needs to be improved.  A new term occurred to me, "our collective awareness".  This term is useful because it is not just what one person knows, or what some people know in secret, or what awareness is present in some elite ivory tower, but rather  what enough people in our democracy are aware of so that they are able to exercise some intelligent control over the situation.   The term really does just refer to what people are aware of collectively. 

"Collective awareness" does not refer to "collective consciousness".  Whatever that might be, it is a different thing and a different topic.  Now the word "awareness" is frequently use in the context of a discussion of consciousness, so i do understand the confusion.   Even so we can talk about being aware of this or that, without knowing what consciousness is or having to introduce any metaphysical baggage that word may connote.  That is all i intended to communicate.

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-12-02 10:52:57 16316
M 2012-12-02 10:35:36 16316
If you have scientific evidence that you can read another's mind & describe the contents of his/her awareness let me know (with documentation),

Well there is absolutely nothing in "the quality of our collective awareness ... and how we can improve it" about reading another's mind.  It is not necessary.  You speak, i listen and interpret your words ... that is is the communication that constitutes what is in the set of our collective awareness. 

What might be interesting is for me to understand why you thought that would need to be in there.   Why would that be an important feature of collective awareness for you?
Well then you have an unreal concept.  Maybe you should ask how would you improve the quality of a collective awareness if you can't find a collective awareness. 


Mark de LA says
A concept is unreal & is not tangible in the real world. A concept is at best a label.


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-12-02 11:22:28 16316
M 2012-12-02 11:07:44 16316
seth 2012-12-02 10:52:57 16316
M 2012-12-02 10:35:36 16316
If you have scientific evidence that you can read another's mind & describe the contents of his/her awareness let me know (with documentation),

Well there is absolutely nothing in "the quality of our collective awareness ... and how we can improve it" about reading another's mind.  It is not necessary.  You speak, i listen and interpret your words ... that is is the communication that constitutes what is in the set of our collective awareness. 

What might be interesting is for me to understand why you thought that would need to be in there.   Why would that be an important feature of collective awareness for you?
Well then you have an unreal concept.  Maybe you should ask how would you improve the quality of a collective awareness if you can't find a collective awareness. 

... so, now you don't mention "mind reading" at all ... yet you declare the concept "unreal" without telling me how is is unreal.  You then declare that I "cant find a collective awareness" yet i have indicated exactly the set of things that goes into it.   
Perhaps you should distinguish a collection of consciousnesses from a collective conscience or a collective awareness - they are not the same .  A strategy of improvement which mimics "pissing into the wind" is not interesting to me.


Seth says
M 2012-12-02 12:40:28 16316
A concept is unreal & is not tangible in the real world. A concept is at best a label.


Well everything in our meta-world of language  and concepts "is not tangible in the real world" in any way that makes sense to me.  The meta-world is useful when it refers to (points to) things and processes in that so called "real world".  "An awareness of something" is just such a concept. I am aware that i am typing on my Mack Book laptop while i am laying in bed while Denise is watching some horedshit on QVC on the TV.  I am not aware of how the tax money i will send to Washington in January will be spent.  I can talk quite tangibly about what things i am aware of and what things i am not aware of. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-12-02 21:59:31 16316
M 2012-12-02 12:38:53 16316
seth 2012-12-02 11:22:28 16316
M 2012-12-02 11:07:44 16316
seth 2012-12-02 10:52:57 16316
M 2012-12-02 10:35:36 16316
If you have scientific evidence that you can read another's mind & describe the contents of his/her awareness let me know (with documentation),

Well there is absolutely nothing in "the quality of our collective awareness ... and how we can improve it" about reading another's mind.  It is not necessary.  You speak, i listen and interpret your words ... that is is the communication that constitutes what is in the set of our collective awareness. 

What might be interesting is for me to understand why you thought that would need to be in there.   Why would that be an important feature of collective awareness for you?
Well then you have an unreal concept.  Maybe you should ask how would you improve the quality of a collective awareness if you can't find a collective awareness. 

... so, now you don't mention "mind reading" at all ... yet you declare the concept "unreal" without telling me how is is unreal.  You then declare that I "cant find a collective awareness" yet i have indicated exactly the set of things that goes into it.   
Perhaps you should distinguish a collection of consciousnesses from a collective conscience or a collective awareness - they are not the same .  [snip]


Well this all started by me reading you analysis of how faulty our awareness of how the budget is handled  in Washington and how our tax money is spent without public accountability.    Our awareness of that obviously needs to be improved.  A new term occurred to me, "our collective awareness".  This term is useful because it is not just what one person knows, or what some people know in secret, or what awareness is present in some elite ivory tower, but rather  what enough people in our democracy are aware of so that they are able to exercise some intelligent control over the situation.   The term really does just refer to what people are aware of collectively. 

"Collective awareness" does not refer to "collective consciousness".  Whatever that might be, it is a different thing and a different topic.  Now the word "awareness" is frequently use in the context of a discussion of consciousness, so i do understand the confusion.   Even so we can talk about being aware of this or that, without knowing what consciousness is or having to introduce any metaphysical baggage that word may connote.  That is all i intended to communicate.
Please try not to {snip}/censure such big swaths of commentary to eliminate what you don't like & continue the big commentaries. It makes it hard to follow.

Mark de LA says
Awareness & consciousness are basically the same thing & depend upon something like a person for residency & existence.  A collective awareness or consciousness is different from a collection of awarenesses or a collective consciousnesses. A bag of apples does not make an apple! You have to go metaphysical to grok a collective awareness, it's just a concept.
A pointer needs to point from something to something. A collection of awarenesseses would be like a bag of arrows. A collective awareness would be one giant arrow .


Mark de LA says
My challenge, Seth, is that you seem to be using the collective awareness as the collective we when all you have control of really is you & what you are aware of.  You seem to be doing a seance with a collection to improve the validity or ethos of your own arguments & discoveries.
Personally, rather than that (which provides very little in the form of solutions), I would prefer some suggestions & solutions to play with. Bill Clinton was fond of triangulation, standing outside the two conflicting parties to find something that went a third way or with which all parties could agree.  That might also be what I like to call focusing on the principles which all agree with & then derive the details directly from those principles
Your mileage may vary.  What principles in a budget can all agree on? One mentioned in the U.S. Constitution (via the Senator Lee video) is that the public debt is the obligation of the country. We must pay our debts.  We must not go bankrupt. What then are the principles of not going bankrupt?  NOT spending too much? Not strangling the economy to pay off the debts? Not treating one class of people different than the others to pay for the debt?
.... you make up some now?

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-12-03 08:38:20 16316
M 2012-12-03 06:27:17 16316
Awareness & consciousness are basically the same thing & depend upon something like a person for residency & existence.  A collective awareness or consciousness is different from a collection of awarenesses or a collective consciousnesses. A bag of apples does not make an apple! You have to go metaphysical to grok a collective awareness, it's just a concept.
A pointer needs to point from something to something. A collection of awarenesseses would be like a bag of arrows. A collective awareness would be one giant arrow .

watch a flock of birds flying again to grock how a group of individuals can make a whole that is a distinct thing that goes beyond the individual members.  consider again your individual cells  and how they form the larger gestalt of your body.  listen to a symphony orchestra made up of individual instruments playing.  watch an ant colony.  i could go on and on with examples of a larger distinct being emerging from individuals.   it really is a phenomena that i cannot deny.  when you are the small individual and not yourself the larger being, perhaps it is hard to see ... and to swallow.
Restrain yourself, you might have to go metaphysical. Is there a collective awareness in my computer chips since they all make up my computer as a single whole?


Seth says
M 2012-12-03 08:56:18 16316
My challenge, Seth, is that you seem to be using the collective awareness as the collective we when all you have control of really is you & what you are aware of.  You seem to be doing a seance with a collection to improve the validity or ethos of your own arguments & discoveries.
Personally, rather than that (which provides very little in the form of solutions), I would prefer some suggestions & solutions to play with. Bill Clinton was fond of triangulation, standing outside the two conflicting parties to find something that went a third way or with which all parties could agree.  That might also be what I like to call focusing on the principles which all agree with & then derive the details directly from those principles
Your mileage may vary.  What principles in a budget can all agree on? One mentioned in the U.S. Constitution (via the Senator Lee video) is that the public debt is the obligation of the country. We must pay our debts.  We must not go bankrupt. What then are the principles of not going bankrupt?  NOT spending too much? Not strangling the economy to pay off the debts? Not treating one class of people different than the others to pay for the debt?
.... you make up some now?

Well i like to be aware of as much of the collective awareness as i possible can ... and i am concerned by the quality of it... when it is corrupted it causes me and many others pain and disrupts our individual awarenesses.  I have no claim to know more of the collective awareness than you or any other individual does nor to use that in any way for my own agenda ... me thinks you accuse me unjustly in that regard ... perhaps just a rwg invite ... i don't know if there is any more to your accusation than that. 

Your other proposal is just fine with me ... and anything else like that which actually works.  Thing is these kinds of strategies get obscured in an environment full of deceit, twists, spam and simple ignorance.  Don't forget this started, for me, with imagining a tool where people could become aware of the actual chunks that were being proposed to solve the debt crisis.  Having that tool and being able to trust the facts and figures it published would increase our collective awareness.  That is really quite simple, should not be controversial, and is quite devoid of any malicious intent.



Mark de LA says
seth 2012-12-03 08:58:20 16316
M 2012-12-03 08:45:15 16316
seth 2012-12-03 08:38:20 16316
M 2012-12-03 06:27:17 16316
Awareness & consciousness are basically the same thing & depend upon something like a person for residency & existence.  A collective awareness or consciousness is different from a collection of awarenesses or a collective consciousnesses. A bag of apples does not make an apple! You have to go metaphysical to grok a collective awareness, it's just a concept.
A pointer needs to point from something to something. A collection of awarenesseses would be like a bag of arrows. A collective awareness would be one giant arrow .

watch a flock of birds flying again to grock how a group of individuals can make a whole that is a distinct thing that goes beyond the individual members.  consider again your individual cells  and how they form the larger gestalt of your body.  listen to a symphony orchestra made up of individual instruments playing.  watch an ant colony.  i could go on and on with examples of a larger distinct being emerging from individuals.   it really is a phenomena that i cannot deny.  when you are the small individual and not yourself the larger being, perhaps it is hard to see ... and to swallow.
Restrain yourself, you might have to go metaphysical. Is there a collective awareness in my computer chips since they all make up my computer as a single whole?

Not sure where you are going with that one.   The computer as a whole functions quite differently than the chips and transistors do ... and yes a new entity emerges there.  Airiel is just about to inform me that it is  9 Am.   I always thank her when she does.  One of her transistors would not have been able to do that alone.  But it is not necessary for us to impute awareness to inanimate objects ... we can keep that for ourselves ... me thinks that is kind of just a definitionaly thingey an not part of what i am currently talking about.
The transistors are like the cells of the body. Go see the WE thingy & triangulation below. They are much more interesting than this argument. Collective consciousness, awareness & conscience require going metaphysical which I understand is not your schtick & are trying to avoid.



Mark de LA says
seth 2012-12-03 10:11:29 16316
It might be interesting to imagine a world in which instead of trying not to understand "collective awareness" we had spent the same time on finding or helping build a tool which would have allowed us to know and play with the actual chunks on the table in the debt negotiations. 
Read the last comment on 16321 these two items are crossing .

Use triangulation from the principles instead.  What's on the table is just partisan politics.

Mark de LA says
M 2012-12-03 10:26:53 16316
Seth: ... Well i like to be aware of as much of the collective awareness as i possible can ... and i am concerned by the quality of it... when it is corrupted it causes me and many others pain and disrupts our individual awarenesses.  I have no claim to know more of the collective awareness than you or any other individual does nor to use that in any way for my own agenda ... me thinks you accuse me unjustly in that regard ... perhaps just a rwg invite ... i don't know if there is any more to your accusation than that. 
... no rwg, no accusations - how do we know what's in/out of this conceptual honey pot? Look at it for what there is. M$M, twitter, facebook, fastblogit & other stuff & your conversations & mine. Those are the things which are real. As you say, you & I have no more nor less of it than that [paraphrasing]!



See Also

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