Belief
About: Ethos, Logos, & Pathos pdf
WOW! Something held as true & yet there is an infinity of contradiction. The logic of that just blows the mind. The pathos of that just blows the sanctity & sacredness of it all. The Ethos of that self-destructs. The point being here that most people are attaching themselves to their beliefs as if they represented a reality more sturdy than a feeling of "what's so" . I tend to embrace the eternal Tao & prefer as few beliefs as possible. OTOH a belief that a car coming down the highway is going to stay on his own side of the road & not smash into me still serves & is one I keep, even though I might be wrong.
Tags
- bofnk
- belief
- truth
- experience
- item 16505
- rathole
- truthy
Comments
Mark de LA says
Case in point is this view: http://freebeacon.com/religion-survives-national-day-of-reason/
Reason & logic can never disprove nor prove the existence of God. But neither does Science which only creates theories & experiments to validate/predict behavior extrapolated from the theories. Nothing really penetrates all the way to the heart of the matter or reality in conventional consciousness.
Mark de LA says
Mark de LA says
seth 2013-05-05 10:26:47 16505
i think what explains your "infinity of contradiction" is independent agency ... free individuals choosing their own context and axioms. One could almost prove that mathematically. The thing it is a strong force and perchance even the one which creates life. Grock and embrace trumeth, if you are so very depressed with contradiction.
Nope! That rat-hole is of a different shade of brown.
#rathole
#truthy_washy
#rathole
#truthy_washy
Mark de LA says
The point is simple & clear. If beliefs were actually truths then you wouldn't have to believe them you could simply grok them.
Mark de LA says
faith is different for a different purpose
Seth says
Well it is interesting that we apparently do agree on the nature of the relationship between belief vs truth. Sometimes it is hard for me to guess what you mean ... which is why i went into detail to be explicit about it. I think that our agreement still does not extend to my realization (belief) that experience and belief are all we have ... is all anybody has ... and that truth is humanly unattainable ... does it?
In thinking about this item it just now came to my attention that without language there would be no thought and there would never be any consideration of truth ... you could almost say, that without language there would *be* no truth ... there would just be experience, which in a sense cannot lie. I'm thinking now that that is what you and PR in BofNK are referring to as "direct experience". Me, i don't want to confuse that with truth ... truth requires language ... it requires the whole relationship between a sign, its interpretation, and the thing itself ... otherwise i have no idea what the word "truth" would actually mean. Incidentally that is not just me ... that is consistent with contemporary definitions of truth ... see Tarski.
M 2013-05-06 08:11:10 16505
seth 2013-05-06 07:12:15 16505
an interesting conjecture indeed!
However my personal experience with my own beliefs, and with what other people say about their beliefs, contradicts your conjecture. My personal experience tells me that beliefs are not truths. You should easily be able to have the same experience yourself by honestly answering a couple of question: Do you hold that *my* beliefs are truths? Do you hold that *all* of your beliefs are truths?
M 2013-05-05 14:20:59 16505
The point is simple & clear. If beliefs were actually truths then you wouldn't have to believe them you could simply grok them.
an interesting conjecture indeed!However my personal experience with my own beliefs, and with what other people say about their beliefs, contradicts your conjecture. My personal experience tells me that beliefs are not truths. You should easily be able to have the same experience yourself by honestly answering a couple of question: Do you hold that *my* beliefs are truths? Do you hold that *all* of your beliefs are truths?
Reading my original comment with the after it you should grok that you agree with me. Beliefs are not a priori truth. It doesn't mean that they are not nor do not point at truth. I like to be careful about it. As I said before there are too many who are prisoners of their beliefs. NLP thinks of beliefs as anchors - intense emotional material which creates meaning about something.
BofNK has meaning as a charge put on life content- flight or fight being the major survival charge & meaning for the ego or self.
after it you should grok that you agree with me. Beliefs are not a priori truth. It doesn't mean that they are not nor do not point at truth. I like to be careful about it. As I said before there are too many who are prisoners of their beliefs. NLP thinks of beliefs as anchors - intense emotional material which creates meaning about something.BofNK has meaning as a charge put on life content- flight or fight being the major survival charge & meaning for the ego or self.Well it is interesting that we apparently do agree on the nature of the relationship between belief vs truth. Sometimes it is hard for me to guess what you mean ... which is why i went into detail to be explicit about it. I think that our agreement still does not extend to my realization (belief) that experience and belief are all we have ... is all anybody has ... and that truth is humanly unattainable ... does it?
In thinking about this item it just now came to my attention that without language there would be no thought and there would never be any consideration of truth ... you could almost say, that without language there would *be* no truth ... there would just be experience, which in a sense cannot lie. I'm thinking now that that is what you and PR in BofNK are referring to as "direct experience". Me, i don't want to confuse that with truth ... truth requires language ... it requires the whole relationship between a sign, its interpretation, and the thing itself ... otherwise i have no idea what the word "truth" would actually mean. Incidentally that is not just me ... that is consistent with contemporary definitions of truth ... see Tarski.
Mark de LA says
seth 2013-05-06 07:12:15 16505
an interesting conjecture indeed!
However my personal experience with my own beliefs, and with what other people say about their beliefs, contradicts your conjecture. My personal experience tells me that beliefs are not truths. You should easily be able to have the same experience yourself by honestly answering a couple of question: Do you hold that *my* beliefs are truths? Do you hold that *all* of your beliefs are truths?
M 2013-05-05 14:20:59 16505
The point is simple & clear. If beliefs were actually truths then you wouldn't have to believe them you could simply grok them.
an interesting conjecture indeed!However my personal experience with my own beliefs, and with what other people say about their beliefs, contradicts your conjecture. My personal experience tells me that beliefs are not truths. You should easily be able to have the same experience yourself by honestly answering a couple of question: Do you hold that *my* beliefs are truths? Do you hold that *all* of your beliefs are truths?
Reading my original comment with the after it you should grok that you agree with me. Beliefs are not a priori truth. It doesn't mean that they are not nor do not point at truth. I like to be careful about it. As I said before there are too many who are prisoners of their beliefs. NLP thinks of beliefs as anchors - intense emotional material which creates meaning about something.
BofNK has meaning as a charge put on life content- flight or fight being the major survival charge & meaning for the ego or self.
after it you should grok that you agree with me. Beliefs are not a priori truth. It doesn't mean that they are not nor do not point at truth. I like to be careful about it. As I said before there are too many who are prisoners of their beliefs. NLP thinks of beliefs as anchors - intense emotional material which creates meaning about something.BofNK has meaning as a charge put on life content- flight or fight being the major survival charge & meaning for the ego or self.
Mark de LA says
Somewhere in lecture 4 of RS's Initiation, Eternity & the Passing moment :
RS: ... Moreover, man can also look at himself from outside. He can observe his own body. Through countless facts that need not here be dealt with in detail, he becomes aware that he must regard his body as the instrument for his waking life between birth and death. We have already touched upon the longings that play into this life. Among them is a longing to know what man really is within the limits of birth and death, the longing to issue forth from what may be called the darkness of life. But man has no direct experience in his ordinary life of the senses of how to do this. His experiences are such that the ebb and flow of impulses, cravings, sense impressions, ideas, intellectual connections, and so forth, completely fill his waking life.
... the whole series seems more interesting than going down the hole again.
Seth says
Well i totally disagree ... honest conversations between diverse points of view is almost always useful ... especially if the parties involve honestly hold to your principle to "prefer as few beliefs as possible" .... which, incidentally, is an excellent principle.
M 2013-05-06 13:25:09 16505
seth 2013-05-06 12:23:53 16505
Well anything that is not within the limits of my waking life between birth and death i regard as a distraction from my now. I can get no reasons or purposes from it. There is quite enough here for me to make of what i can. And there is no "darkness of life" here for me ... rather the opposite ... it is all my life. For me the darkness looms from some un-sensed pie-in-the-sky other world that must first be imagined and they intuited and of whose experiences i cannot share directly with others. But then, of course, that is just me, and my personal choices in my life.
M 2013-05-06 09:16:00 16505
Somewhere in lecture 4 of RS's Initiation, Eternity & the Passing moment :
RS: ... Moreover, man can also look at himself from outside. He can observe his own body. Through countless facts that need not here be dealt with in detail, he becomes aware that he must regard his body as the instrument for his waking life between birth and death. We have already touched upon the longings that play into this life. Among them is a longing to know what man really is within the limits of birth and death, the longing to issue forth from what may be called the darkness of life. But man has no direct experience in his ordinary life of the senses of how to do this. His experiences are such that the ebb and flow of impulses, cravings, sense impressions, ideas, intellectual connections, and so forth, completely fill his waking life.
... the whole series seems more interesting than going down the hole again.
Well anything that is not within the limits of my waking life between birth and death i regard as a distraction from my now. I can get no reasons or purposes from it. There is quite enough here for me to make of what i can. And there is no "darkness of life" here for me ... rather the opposite ... it is all my life. For me the darkness looms from some un-sensed pie-in-the-sky other world that must first be imagined and they intuited and of whose experiences i cannot share directly with others. But then, of course, that is just me, and my personal choices in my life.
Yep, that's why conversation with you about the subject is a rat-hole. Move along then, these are not the droids you can play with.
Well i totally disagree ... honest conversations between diverse points of view is almost always useful ... especially if the parties involve honestly hold to your principle to "prefer as few beliefs as possible" .... which, incidentally, is an excellent principle.
Mark de LA says
seth 2013-05-06 21:52:33 16505
Well i guess you didn't notice that i spilled out my guts to you honestly expressing my world view. I would have been totally interested in your expression of your world view ... nor would i have judged yours in respect to mine. That is what i call honest conversation. Such conversation is not a rat hole. Such a conversation might have gotten both of us closer to understanding the emotion which i thought you expressed with "WOW! Something held as true & yet there is an infinity of contradiction. The logic of that just blows the mind." I'm sad that you didn't go there.
Seth: ... maybe that's because you don't converse honestly.
... maybe not the best way to start out a conversation by accusing dishonesty of the other.
Mark de LA says
My experience bears a difference.
Because your mindset is RWG?
Mark de LA says
seth 2013-05-14 07:02:24 16505
well then, you should be able to say (or write) something without associating your words to some meaning. i can do that too: "a;adjkl;jfe;lkjekkj;lkjejooenncv" .... but is that language?
M 2013-05-14 06:58:25 16505
seth 2013-05-14 06:53:53 16505
well language is certainly used to expressed whatever, beliefs and shits alike ... so, yes that part of your sentence is true ... but i have no idea what your "NOPE!" is denying. In general language expressess associations ... that is what it does.
M 2013-05-14 00:02:17 16505
seth 2013-05-13 21:19:36 16505
M 2013-05-12 09:41:32 16505
Interesting post on the facebook page "Werner Erhard's Ideas and Applications" here. Belief is held as not access to the truth but a quantum mysticism used to manifest present & future scenarios independent of the past. Some of this hairs into LOA & The Secret through Dr. Wolf.
My summary take is (mostly NLP) this is happening anyway might as well be conscious of what beliefs you are using or get rid of beliefs entirely. The problem of the latter is that something will motivate you unless you suffer from cosmatosis - stagnation due to the inability to choose given equal payoff for all options. Unfortunately somebody seems to have trademarked that coin. In essence it is said to exist when two people walking toward eachother can't decide which side to pass the other and end up going back & forth between the left & the right. The Cosmos is seemingly offering only two options equally favorable. (also a metaphor for moderates).
My summary take is (mostly NLP) this is happening anyway might as well be conscious of what beliefs you are using or get rid of beliefs entirely. The problem of the latter is that something will motivate you unless you suffer from cosmatosis - stagnation due to the inability to choose given equal payoff for all options. Unfortunately somebody seems to have trademarked that coin. In essence it is said to exist when two people walking toward eachother can't decide which side to pass the other and end up going back & forth between the left & the right. The Cosmos is seemingly offering only two options equally favorable. (also a metaphor for moderates).
if you got rid of all of your beliefs, you could not speak ... you would have nothing to say ... you would have gotten rid of language itself.
NOPE! Language is used to express a lot of shit besides beliefs!
well language is certainly used to expressed whatever, beliefs and shits alike ... so, yes that part of your sentence is true ... but i have no idea what your "NOPE!" is denying. In general language expressess associations ... that is what it does.
See that brown shit above - you wrote that. That's the NOPE, duh! UNTRUE.
well then, you should be able to say (or write) something without associating your words to some meaning. i can do that too: "a;adjkl;jfe;lkjekkj;lkjejooenncv" .... but is that language?
Like the word truth, you have your own personal personal meaning for belief as everything.
Mark de LA says
seth 2013-05-14 09:29:42 16505
which associates my description with your lack of interest in parsing it.
M 2013-05-14 08:57:50 16505
seth 2013-05-14 08:47:07 16505
in this case, it really would not matter which kind of "belief" you want to talk about ... my same theorem would still apply. i see a spectrum ... on one end is mere pattern recognition, perhaps somewhere in the middle is informed opinion, and on the far end is fervently held belief. all of those are formed by the association of experience and/or the spirit of something with the networked maze of the meta-world that could be called "mind".
M 2013-05-14 08:00:10 16505
seth 2013-05-14 07:02:24 16505
well then, you should be able to say (or write) something without associating your words to some meaning. i can do that too: "a;adjkl;jfe;lkjekkj;lkjejooenncv" .... but is that language?
M 2013-05-14 06:58:25 16505
seth 2013-05-14 06:53:53 16505
well language is certainly used to expressed whatever, beliefs and shits alike ... so, yes that part of your sentence is true ... but i have no idea what your "NOPE!" is denying. In general language expressess associations ... that is what it does.
M 2013-05-14 00:02:17 16505
seth 2013-05-13 21:19:36 16505
M 2013-05-12 09:41:32 16505
Interesting post on the facebook page "Werner Erhard's Ideas and Applications" here. Belief is held as not access to the truth but a quantum mysticism used to manifest present & future scenarios independent of the past. Some of this hairs into LOA & The Secret through Dr. Wolf.
My summary take is (mostly NLP) this is happening anyway might as well be conscious of what beliefs you are using or get rid of beliefs entirely. The problem of the latter is that something will motivate you unless you suffer from cosmatosis - stagnation due to the inability to choose given equal payoff for all options. Unfortunately somebody seems to have trademarked that coin. In essence it is said to exist when two people walking toward eachother can't decide which side to pass the other and end up going back & forth between the left & the right. The Cosmos is seemingly offering only two options equally favorable. (also a metaphor for moderates).
My summary take is (mostly NLP) this is happening anyway might as well be conscious of what beliefs you are using or get rid of beliefs entirely. The problem of the latter is that something will motivate you unless you suffer from cosmatosis - stagnation due to the inability to choose given equal payoff for all options. Unfortunately somebody seems to have trademarked that coin. In essence it is said to exist when two people walking toward eachother can't decide which side to pass the other and end up going back & forth between the left & the right. The Cosmos is seemingly offering only two options equally favorable. (also a metaphor for moderates).
if you got rid of all of your beliefs, you could not speak ... you would have nothing to say ... you would have gotten rid of language itself.
NOPE! Language is used to express a lot of shit besides beliefs!
well language is certainly used to expressed whatever, beliefs and shits alike ... so, yes that part of your sentence is true ... but i have no idea what your "NOPE!" is denying. In general language expressess associations ... that is what it does.
See that brown shit above - you wrote that. That's the NOPE, duh! UNTRUE.
well then, you should be able to say (or write) something without associating your words to some meaning. i can do that too: "a;adjkl;jfe;lkjekkj;lkjejooenncv" .... but is that language?
Like the word truth, you have your own personal personal meaning for belief as everything.
in this case, it really would not matter which kind of "belief" you want to talk about ... my same theorem would still apply. i see a spectrum ... on one end is mere pattern recognition, perhaps somewhere in the middle is informed opinion, and on the far end is fervently held belief. all of those are formed by the association of experience and/or the spirit of something with the networked maze of the meta-world that could be called "mind".
YEP! Back to word-salad.
which associates my description with your lack of interest in parsing it.
Yep, the rwg + word salad = word salad with the middle finger extended.
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