thought


Tags
- privacy
- snowden
- nsa
- listening
- agitprop
- propaganda
Comments


Bill Would Require DriverS To Give Police Their Cell Phones Without Warrant...
HHS Wraps Up 'Health Datapalooza IV'...
Obama: 'We Don't Want to Tax ALL Businesses Out of Business'...
Audio: IRS agent tells pro-life group: 'Keep your faith to yourself'...
TRANSCRIPT...
UPDATE: Soldier Who Read Conservative Books Faces Charges...
Democrats Love Gov't Surveillance -- As Long As It's Obama, Not Bush...
ETC.
It is strange and peculiar to me that you say "NOPE!" ... Nope to what? The question i posed was about what we should do. Are you saying that we should not repeal the Patriot act ... and are you saying that the threat of terrorism justifies the government collecting data about all of us? Are you still so very terrified about being bombed that you want the government to do whatever it can to prevent that?




Well it seems even you have argued on both sides of this dilemma ...
"It begins to look like the old dichotomy liberty/freedom -VS- security. Do I want more police cars around & more police nearby ensuring my safety? or Do I want to live in peace without being watched all the time. What happens if the nanny state begins to pass laws that are really stupid? As with all matters balance is required. New technology may require new rules as with drone wars, predators & terrorists redefining "war". The Fourth Amendment applies strongly. With being watched all the time where does the "right to privacy" go?"
Hence, I think it is time to bark back the government's surveillance of the population ... let them go back to specific warrants.

Well i don't think "Obama wants this spying on the people" as you put it. And i don't think you have any evidence to support that opinion. Oh sure, Obama, does not want more terrorist attacks on his watch ... and i think he will follow the advise he gets from the security machine to prevent it. But it is hard to distinguish the former from the latter. That is the problem we are having.
I actually think it is good that this has come up now at this stage in the history our country. I also want it to be resolved and not swept under the rug allowing then the overreach of security to continue to infringe on our personal freedom. But demonizing specific people like Snowden and Obama will not help us make the changes we (probably both) want.




Well i don't think "Obama wants this spying on the people" as you put it. And i don't think you have any evidence to support that opinion. Oh sure, Obama, does not want more terrorist attacks on his watch ... and i think he will follow the advise he gets from the security machine to prevent it. But it is hard to distinguish the former from the latter. That is the problem we are having.
I actually think it is good that this has come up now at this stage in the history our country. I also want it to be resolved and not swept under the rug allowing then the overreach of security to continue to infringe on our personal freedom. But demonizing specific people like Snowden and Obama will not help us make the changes we (probably both) want.



You really do disgust me when you start running this "your side" shit. But, hey, if you want to go there ... "your side" is not demonizing Snowden at all ... rather they are hailing him as a hero. Of course the Obama administration must needs prosecute him as a traitor ... apparently that is what you would do as well.
All of that aside, there is another aspect of this that has not received much attention. Where Snowden ends up may be super critical. He certainly has information that would be of interest to the Chinese or the Russians. Keeping that kind of information secret from these other governments is certainly in the best interests of the United States. If Obama granted him a pardon, then he could return to this country and not need to seek asylum in a country which will certainly interrogate him. Think about it ... contemplate if signing this petition would be a wise step.



"I have a very good grasp of national security which you do not, Seth. "

So you have actual knowledge of the NSA's use of data?


"I have a very good grasp of national security which you do not, Seth. "


don't need no stinking experience or bill of rights, eh bro?
- Snowden's "crime" and the government's and media's response to that. Was it justified? What actual damage did it do to our security except for disclosing #2?
- The NSA collecting billions of phone records of people who are not even suspected of crimes. Is this necessary to protect us from terrorists? Is it effective? Is it a slippery slope leading eventually to government oppression?
These are entirely different concerns. Me, i think we need to understand 2 before we can judge 1. Personally i don't want Snowden's crime to distract the country from understanding what is happening (or perhaps not happening) with 2.
I don't think it is useful for us to do a random walk of partisan bickering without even knowing which item is of concern.

Cries of partisan are just #agitprop and #propaganda & should be stuffed up your ass.

ok it is now clear to me that you have one agenda: to judge people who leak government secrets to the public.
Have fun with your agenda ... to me, it is not interesting. Government overreach ... now that is something that gets my juices flowing.
- Snowden's "crime" and the government's and media's response to that. Was it justified? What actual damage did it do to our security except for disclosing #2?
- The NSA collecting billions of phone records of people who are not even suspected of crimes. Is this necessary to protect us from terrorists? Is it effective? Is it a slippery slope leading eventually to government oppression?
These are entirely different concerns. Me, i think we need to understand 2 before we can judge 1. Personally i don't want Snowden's crime to distract the country from understanding what is happening (or perhaps not happening) with 2.
I don't think it is useful for us to do a random walk of partisan bickering without even knowing which item is of concern.

Cries of partisan are just #agitprop and #propaganda & should be stuffed up your ass.

- Snowden's "crime" and the government's and media's response to that. Was it justified? What actual damage did it do to our security except for disclosing #2?
- The NSA collecting billions of phone records of people who are not even suspected of crimes. Is this necessary to protect us from terrorists? Is it effective? Is it a slippery slope leading eventually to government oppression?
These are entirely different concerns. Me, i think we need to understand 2 before we can judge 1. Personally i don't want Snowden's crime to distract the country from understanding what is happening (or perhaps not happening) with 2.
I don't think it is useful for us to do a random walk of partisan bickering without even knowing which item is of concern.

Cries of partisan are just #agitprop and #propaganda & should be stuffed up your ass.

ok it is now clear to me that you have one agenda: to judge people who leak government secrets to the public.
Have fun with your agenda ... to me, it is not interesting. Government overreach ... now that is something that gets my juices flowing.


Is story unravelling? GUARDIAN's scoop 'looking bit dodgy'...
Obama, 9 PRISM Partners Targeted by Class-Action Lawsuit...
Hentoff: This is America?
EU warns US of 'grave consequences'...



TALKS WITH SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST NEWSPAPER...
Steps he claims US took since he broke cover...
His plans for the immediate future...
His fears for his family...
Will fight extradition...
LET HONG KONG DECIDE...
Not hiding...
'I'M NEITHER TRAITOR NOR HERO. I'M AN AMERICAN'
This crisps it up!!!!!


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/14/terrorists-change-behavior-after-leaks-lawmaker-says/



XKeyscore: NSA tool collects nearly everything a user does on the internet
though apparently it's only accessed in response to a specific investigation.

XKeyscore: NSA tool collects nearly everything a user does on the internet
though apparently it's only accessed in response to a specific investigation.
Despite the field for a justification, the "request is not reviewed by a court or any NSA personnel before it is processed," says Greenwald. Then, this next screen pops up and "the analyst then selects which of those returned emails they want to read by opening them in NSA reading software," explains Greenwald.
Further slides reveal that the NSA can do this with all sorts of other communications, like Facebook chat, and presumably the other tech companies the government works with, like Microsoft, which owns Skype:


training materials for XKeyscore detail how analysts can use it and other systems to mine enormous agency databases by filling in a simple on-screen form giving only a broad justification for the search. The request is not reviewed by a court or any NSA personnel before it is processed.
That actually is something that i think the American People should know. What kind of court restrainsts should be enforced is quite another question.
Then the question emerges, should telling that to the American People be a crime?

training materials for XKeyscore detail how analysts can use it and other systems to mine enormous agency databases by filling in a simple on-screen form giving only a broad justification for the search. The request is not reviewed by a court or any NSA personnel before it is processed.
That actually is something that i think the American People should know. What kind of court restrainsts should be enforced is quite another question.
Then the question emerges, should telling that to the American People be a crime?

That actually is something that i think the American People should know. What kind of court restrainsts should be enforced is quite another question.
Then the question emerges, *should* telling that to the American People be a crime?

well, of course, that is the same view as the Obama administration is taking.
me, i see a bit differently. inevitably it is for a jury to decide after they have been presented with the facts and the law. but what *should* be a crime is a matter of ethics and morality and is decided by citizens. this is a case where, if i was on the joury, i would let him off ... just like if i was on the Zimmerman jury, i would have voted for murder. perhaps we will see what happens, perhaps not.
That actually is something that i think the American People should know. What kind of court restrainsts should be enforced is quite another question.
Then the question emerges, *should* telling that to the American People be a crime?

well, of course, that is the same view as the Obama administration is taking.
me, i see a bit differently. inevitably it is for a jury to decide after they have been presented with the facts and the law. but what *should* be a crime is a matter of ethics and morality and is decided by citizens. this is a case where, if i was on the joury, i would let him off ... just like if i was on the Zimmerman jury, i would have voted for murder. perhaps we will see what happens, perhaps not.

That actually is something that i think the American People should know. What kind of court restrainsts should be enforced is quite another question.
Then the question emerges, *should* telling that to the American People be a crime?

well, of course, that is the same view as the Obama administration is taking.
me, i see a bit differently. inevitably it is for a jury to decide after they have been presented with the facts and the law. but what *should* be a crime is a matter of ethics and morality and is decided by citizens. this is a case where, if i was on the joury, i would let him off ... just like if i was on the Zimmerman jury, i would have voted for murder. perhaps we will see what happens, perhaps not.

in what sense does what not matter ... and how did that follow from anything that i said?
how our society meets out justice certainly does matter. becoming aware of what our government is doing certainly does matter.
That actually is something that i think the American People should know. What kind of court restrainsts should be enforced is quite another question.
Then the question emerges, *should* telling that to the American People be a crime?

well, of course, that is the same view as the Obama administration is taking.
me, i see a bit differently. inevitably it is for a jury to decide after they have been presented with the facts and the law. but what *should* be a crime is a matter of ethics and morality and is decided by citizens. this is a case where, if i was on the joury, i would let him off ... just like if i was on the Zimmerman jury, i would have voted for murder. perhaps we will see what happens, perhaps not.

in what sense does what not matter ... and how did that follow from anything that i said?
how our society meets out justice certainly does matter. becoming aware of what our government is doing certainly does matter.

Werner & LEC are at the opposite ends of the spectrum of transformation. Tony is into generating the feelings & juice necessary to get oneself into action on one's goals. Werner & the LEC leaders were into ontology & being.
A fixed way of listening to people can be described many ways. Some is part of one's survival/ego racket built over time & experience. WE (Werner Erhard) & LEC approach transformation from a "life is a conversation" point of view. If you always approach what another is saying with the mismatching metaprogram & enhance it with a playing dumb until the other person has exhausted all they can say about a topic then that is your already, always listening. You can then say that "my listening for you is that you need to explain whatever in great detail until I can mismatch something & then I will understand it & be able argue further.
I could say that my listening for you is that "you are somewhat brainwashed by your political point of view & lazy to think or find new solutions on your own & would rather they come from outside yourself so that you can play whack-a-mole with them."
Of course teasing such shit out is most likely a right-wrong-game invitation I learned from Michael Hadley first; (chief of staff for Tony).
There is a price paid for having each AAL (already always listening) & that is mostly intimacy & real communication, & true grokking (love?) will probably never show up. The language used by LEC to cure that is to "get off it!" - i.e. realize your AAL is a lie & make a stand not to create such things again.



i think most of "already, always listening" stuff we already dealt with under the topic of "listening for" ... too bad we didn't tag that conversation for retrieval here ... or perhaps it got deleted. if i remember correctly we ended up agreeing


Did i miss anything really salient regarding that here?


what is the distinction "already, always listening" ?
incidentally me becoming informed by as many sources as possible, and then making up my own stuff and foisting it on others, is the only way i know how to participate in this consciousness. if you have discovered an alternative to that, could you please let me about it ?
and finally, i totally agree that politics today is shit and almost not worth paying any attention to ... at least the politics that is, so called "happening", on the national stage as reported by the media


well apparently it is not something that is sufficiently salient in your thinking such that you can simply inform me in your own words. instead you just use it as an excuse to criticize me. oh well ... same as it ever was.

well actually i did study the form to find the edge that that i deemed important for me ... i posted it up there for you. as far as i can tell it is just rehash of thinking that has been around for a long time and gives their enterprise an excuse to charge you $125 for a seminar. I was actually wondering if you had gotten anything *new* from it. That was what i was asking you.
So what is new about some distinction called "already, always listening" to you?
If you don't care to take the time to write me how that has affected your thinking, then so be it. This consciousness will simply not be so informed. Is this just more of the same old rwg ... or is there is anything interesting for me here. I have no interest in the former ... the latter is what motivated me asking again.



That actually is something that i think the American People should know. What kind of court restrainsts should be enforced is quite another question.
Then the question emerges, *should* telling that to the American People be a crime?

well, of course, that is the same view as the Obama administration is taking.
me, i see a bit differently. inevitably it is for a jury to decide after they have been presented with the facts and the law. but what *should* be a crime is a matter of ethics and morality and is decided by citizens. this is a case where, if i was on the joury, i would let him off ... just like if i was on the Zimmerman jury, i would have voted for murder. perhaps we will see what happens, perhaps not.

in what sense does what not matter ... and how did that follow from anything that i said?
how our society meets out justice certainly does matter. becoming aware of what our government is doing certainly does matter.


incidentally ...
So are you suddenly of a mind that politics does't "matter" anymore?


what is the distinction "already, always listening" ?
incidentally me becoming informed by as many sources as possible, and then making up my own stuff and foisting it on others, is the only way i know how to participate in this consciousness. if you have discovered an alternative to that, could you please let me about it ?
and finally, i totally agree that politics today is shit and almost not worth paying any attention to ... at least the politics that is, so called "happening", on the national stage as reported by the media


well apparently it is not something that is sufficiently salient in your thinking such that you can simply inform me in your own words. instead you just use it as an excuse to criticize me. oh well ... same as it ever was.


i think most of "already, always listening" stuff we already dealt with under the topic of "listening for" ... too bad we didn't tag that conversation for retrieval here ... or perhaps it got deleted. if i remember correctly we ended up agreeing


Did i miss anything really salient regarding that here?

See Also
- Thought Hillary and Uma Aberdeen with 318 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought Socretes Cafe Tuesday April 18 2017 with 142 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought Agreements are vunerable to lies with 126 viewings related by tag "propaganda".
- Thought Different Kinds of Thoughts with 88 viewings related by tag "propaganda".
- Thought Listening with 38 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought #AntiTrumpPropaganda with 29 viewings related by tag "agitprop".
- Thought conversation with 15 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought Are we more vunerable to propaganda? with 13 viewings related by tag "propaganda".
- Thought The 7% ers - Words Are a Waste of Time with 13 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought Invasion Of Privacy At Fastblogit with 6 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought A different view of the Snowden Affair with 6 viewings related by tag "nsa".
- Thought Life Imitates Hollywood with 6 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought Lies with 5 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought Privacy is antithetical to the semantic web with 5 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought The Borg ? The Barge with 5 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought & the beat goes on with 3 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought Sick Funny with 3 viewings related by tag "snowden".
- Thought Individual Privacy Opposes Us with 3 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought OBAMAGANDA with 3 viewings related by tag "propaganda".
- Thought The Art of Listening with 2 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought Me represented in the Linked Data Cloud with 2 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought about: wing-nut conspiracy theorists have done it again: the truth about the planned parenthood hoax revealed - salon.com with 2 viewings related by tag "propaganda".
- Thought about: culture and the individual with 1 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought The Voice of Leadership with 1 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought Firefox Private Browsing Windows with 1 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought Kids of America with 1 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought Baghdad Bob -vs- D.C. Biden with 1 viewings related by tag "propaganda".
- Thought Identifying & Exposing Propaganda with 1 viewings related by tag "propaganda".
- Thought Different Viewpoints with 1 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought Privacy with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought For all of you who think that Privacy is a Suicide Pact ! Look Below! with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought [title (18461)] with 0 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought There are two sides to this Privacy Issue with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought about: found here with 0 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought [title (19511)] with 0 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought Secrecy vs Power vs Freedom with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought Interesting Werner Thought with 0 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought Hope & Chains with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought Evil Dude with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought about: He he. A little place to chat! with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought Found on Facebook this AM (Citizenship Project) with 0 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought ~~ #privacy #opposes #a11y ~~ -- Bozo Faust with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought A different slant on the Right To Privacy with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought about: facial recognition tool works in darkness - bbc news with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought The Importance of Listening versus Speaking with 0 viewings related by tag "listening".
- Thought Let it be Said ... with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".
- Thought My choice of a facebook privacy Setting with 0 viewings related by tag "privacy".