Reality & Consciousness

About: journey to enlightenment | the rabbit hole with deepak chopra - youtube

Consciousness may have many levels or states - not just one. Reality is different in different states of consciousness.  Deepak has a simple 5 minute journey.

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  1. thought
  2. reality
  3. consciousness
  4. item 16606
  5. guessing the point
  6. BofrNK

Comments


Mark de LA says
The point here is that most people just think of conscious & unconscious - binary choices - &  maybe that is what causes their binary world & their binary reality.


Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-28 09:12:30 16606
MR 2013-06-28 07:45:21 16606
The point here is that most people just think of conscious & unconscious - binary choices - &  maybe that is what causes their binary world & their binary reality.


... well maybe we could simplify that ... people just think, that is what causes their binary reality.

but are you also saying that what i am not aware of now might create a thought illusion that a thing is, and is not, at the same time  ?
Nope! thinking & consciousness while occasionally linked are not the same thingy.


Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-28 10:00:47 16606
MR 2013-06-28 09:13:36 16606
seth 2013-06-28 09:12:30 16606
MR 2013-06-28 07:45:21 16606
The point here is that most people just think of conscious & unconscious - binary choices - &  maybe that is what causes their binary world & their binary reality.


... well maybe we could simplify that ... people just think, that is what causes their binary reality.

but are you also saying that what i am not aware of now might create a thought illusion that a thing is, and is not, at the same time  ?
Nope! thinking & consciousness while occasionally linked are not the same thingy.


well what you are aware of, is what you are conscious of.  or consciousness, whatever else it might be, certainly includes the process of becoming aware of something.   you could substitute, in my sentences above, the term "consciousness" for the term "thought" and it would express the same interpretation of your point, no?   So with that substitution we would get ...

"people are conscious of something, that is what causes their reality"  ...  also "what i am not conscious of creates a consciousness illusion that: a thing is, and is not at the same time".

thought seems to be the process of expressing in language what i am conscious of.   it is inherent in that process, that what you refer to as "the binary reality" emerges.  if i was conscious of everything, there would be no unconscious, then i could not honestly describe, even in language, reality as being binary. 

... and if i put a smug emotion here, will it change my thought ? .... will it make it impalpable over there?
I lost you after you equated consciousness & thought again. ... no truth there except as the two are sometimes linked as I expressed.  You can stick your rwg about emoticons up your ass and see if your can think more clearly.


Seth says
MR 2013-06-28 11:31:57 16606
seth 2013-06-28 11:17:39 16606
MR 2013-06-28 11:05:18 16606
MR 2013-06-28 11:03:51 16606
Consciousness & thinking have a different flavor, texture, feeling etc. use whatever unsuitable metaphor you need to get a distinction about the two of them.  You would not need two different words if they were the exactly the same. Also, being conscious & consciousness are distinct words with the latin root "to know". Thinking usually requires an "I" in the mind doing something. Watching TV while your are conscious probably mostly involves the media orchestrating in your mind  things on the inner stage within.



well i certainly agree with you that consciousness and thinking are not the same thing.   nor did i say they were.  i was merely trying to get beyond your quibble about my interpretation of your point.  to say we can substitute one term for the other in one expression, is not to say they both refer to the same thing. 

did you notice how i did distinguish between them? 

"thought seems to be the process of expressing in language what i am conscious of" (see above)
If I substitute the letter I for the letter E in the word SETH I get the word SHIT & visa versa.  I can substitute the letter E for the letter I in SHIT & get the word SETH ... therefore .... draw your own conclusions.  Try not rearranging my statements to arrive at your own conclusion.



well you are certainly trying very hard not to hear what i am saying.

Try to think your original point again, "people just think of conscious & unconscious - binary choices - &  maybe that is what causes their binary world & their binary reality".

Then try to think my interpretation of that ... not trying to refute it, but as if it came from your own consciousness:  "people are conscious of something, that is what causes their reality  ...  also what i am not conscious of creates a consciousness illusion that: a thing is, and is not at the same time".

Then the only question is, how are the two thoughts different ... do they contradict each other ... or do they add to each other ...  how?  ... or are they really thinking the same thing?


Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-28 11:17:39 16606
MR 2013-06-28 11:05:18 16606
MR 2013-06-28 11:03:51 16606
Consciousness & thinking have a different flavor, texture, feeling etc. use whatever unsuitable metaphor you need to get a distinction about the two of them.  You would not need two different words if they were the exactly the same. Also, being conscious & consciousness are distinct words with the latin root "to know". Thinking usually requires an "I" in the mind doing something. Watching TV while your are conscious probably mostly involves the media orchestrating in your mind  things on the inner stage within.



well i certainly agree with you that consciousness and thinking are not the same thing.   nor did i say they were.  i was merely trying to get beyond your quibble about my interpretation of your point.  to say we can substitute one term for the other in one expression, is not to say they both refer to the same thing. 

did you notice how i did distinguish between them? 

"thought seems to be the process of expressing in language what i am conscious of" (see above)
If I substitute the letter I for the letter E in the word SETH I get the word SHIT & visa versa.  I can substitute the letter E for the letter I in SHIT & get the word SETH ... therefore .... draw your own conclusions.  Try not rearranging my statements to arrive at your own conclusion.



Mark de LA says
MR 2013-06-28 11:33:48 16606
seth 2013-06-28 11:24:52 16606
now, one thing that i do not ordinarily distinguish between is "consciousness" and "awareness".   to me, the word "consciousness", has attracted a lot of baggage ... "awareness" has not.   i can always pretty much answer the question:  "am i aware of X" ... yet the question "am i conscious of X" seems to imply assumptions that are not necessary to think about the matter tangibly.
Awareness is more of a perceptual thingy leaving out the ego, or "I" part of the transaction.

For example you might speak reasonably accurately of a computer program that it is aware of your input by returning a response.  I doubt that it is conscious.


Seth says
MR 2013-06-28 12:42:43 16606
seth 2013-06-28 12:38:16 16606
my question:  is ...
"what i am  conscious of creates my reality ...  but what i am not conscious of creates the illusion that a thing is, or is not."
... my thought or yours?


Sounds like yours.  What you make up about what you are not conscious of contributes to your reality sense. We both have a sense of continuity between what goes on before deep sleep & what is about to go on as we wake up. Your last clause lacks reference for what "a thing" might be.


well i think what I make up about what i am aware of contributes just about as much to my reality sense as that which i make up about what i am not aware of.   for me, it is simpler just to think: "what i am  conscious of creates my reality" .

"a thing" refers to anything whatsoever ... there are no exclusions or restraints on what it can refer to.  if you become aware of it, and/or are conscious of it, then for the purposes of that sentence it is a thing that either is, or is not.   my sentence implies, that were you to be conscious of everything that distinction would no longer hold. 

interesting to note, that like any good proposition, my proposition restrains the universe in some manner ... in other words the universe would be different if that proposition is true than if it were not true.   I think that is like step 6 of Chopra's sequences ... consciousness as if you are the universe. 

Mark de LA says
MR 2013-06-28 12:57:51 16606
To be conscious of Seth's style of argumentation, while charming, is to notice that he is more talking about grammar & word sense than groking the realities - mostly rationalization. Both of us are familiar with consciousness, being conscious & at least consensus reality.  Lots has been said & argued about what is real & reality.  I was using reality in the sense of the YouTube referenced - nothing more.

The Science channel program "Through the Wormhole w/ Morgan Freeman" asks the question what is real & what is reality a lot. One viewpoint is in the commercial.



Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-28 12:09:45 16606
... after trying the exercise i scope above, me thinks i will revise my interpretation as follows:

"people are conscious of something, that is what causes their reality  ...  what i am not conscious of creates a consciousness illusion that: a thing is, or is not."

A bit more mystical of a thought, but i think that was more what might have been in your mind.
Perhaps you might actually spend 5+ minutes & watch the YouTube & you would not need to argue so much which wasted a lot more than the 5 minutes it would take. I am conscious of a lot more things than reality.



Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-28 11:54:22 16606
MR 2013-06-28 11:31:57 16606
seth 2013-06-28 11:17:39 16606
MR 2013-06-28 11:05:18 16606
MR 2013-06-28 11:03:51 16606
Consciousness & thinking have a different flavor, texture, feeling etc. use whatever unsuitable metaphor you need to get a distinction about the two of them.  You would not need two different words if they were the exactly the same. Also, being conscious & consciousness are distinct words with the latin root "to know". Thinking usually requires an "I" in the mind doing something. Watching TV while your are conscious probably mostly involves the media orchestrating in your mind  things on the inner stage within.



well i certainly agree with you that consciousness and thinking are not the same thing.   nor did i say they were.  i was merely trying to get beyond your quibble about my interpretation of your point.  to say we can substitute one term for the other in one expression, is not to say they both refer to the same thing. 

did you notice how i did distinguish between them? 

"thought seems to be the process of expressing in language what i am conscious of" (see above)
If I substitute the letter I for the letter E in the word SETH I get the word SHIT & visa versa.  I can substitute the letter E for the letter I in SHIT & get the word SETH ... therefore .... draw your own conclusions.  Try not rearranging my statements to arrive at your own conclusion.



well you are certainly trying very hard not to hear what i am saying.

Try to think your original point again, "people just think of conscious & unconscious - binary choices - &  maybe that is what causes their binary world & their binary reality".

Then try to think my interpretation of that ... not trying to refute it, but as if it came from your own consciousness:  "people are conscious of something, that is what causes their reality  ...  also what i am not conscious of creates a consciousness illusion that: a thing is, and is not at the same time".

Then the only question is, how are the two thoughts different ... do they contradict each other ... or do they add to each other ...  how?  ... or are they really thinking the same thing?

Straw man, word salad or ? The point again, not needing your rephrasing, is that Deepak illustrated 7 levels of consciousness which are 7 levels of reality. If you play in only 2 levels of consciousness you get a binary reality.


Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-28 12:15:21 16606
MR 2013-06-28 11:35:10 16606
MR 2013-06-28 11:33:48 16606
seth 2013-06-28 11:24:52 16606
now, one thing that i do not ordinarily distinguish between is "consciousness" and "awareness".   to me, the word "consciousness", has attracted a lot of baggage ... "awareness" has not.   i can always pretty much answer the question:  "am i aware of X" ... yet the question "am i conscious of X" seems to imply assumptions that are not necessary to think about the matter tangibly.
Awareness is more of a perceptual thingy leaving out the ego, or "I" part of the transaction.

For example you might speak reasonably accurately of a computer program that it is aware of your input by returning a response.  I doubt that it is conscious.


yep ... err exactly ... that is what i am talking about when i say that the word "consciousness" carries with it a lot of assumptions that just are not implied by the word "awareness". 
Yep most words have etymology & usage evolutions.  Have you said anything useful here?


Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-28 12:34:17 16606
MR 2013-06-28 12:30:34 16606
seth 2013-06-28 12:09:45 16606
... after trying the exercise i scope above, me thinks i will revise my interpretation as follows:

"people are conscious of something, that is what causes their reality  ...  what i am not conscious of creates a consciousness illusion that: a thing is, or is not."

A bit more mystical of a thought, but i think that was more what might have been in your mind.
Perhaps you might actually spend 5+ minutes & watch the YouTube & you would not need to argue so much which wasted a lot more than the 5 minutes it would take. I am conscious of a lot more things than reality.


i watched the video.

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-28 12:38:16 16606
my question:  is ...
"what i am  conscious of creates my reality ...  but what i am not conscious of creates the illusion that a thing is, or is not."
... my thought or yours?


Sounds like yours.  What you make up about what you are not conscious of contributes to your reality sense. We both have a sense of continuity between what goes on before deep sleep & what is about to go on as we wake up. Your last clause lacks reference for what "a thing" might be.


Seth says
MR 2013-06-28 12:59:09 16606
MR 2013-06-28 12:57:51 16606
To be conscious of Seth's style of argumentation, while charming, is to notice that he is more talking about grammar & word sense than groking the realities - mostly rationalization. Both of us are familiar with consciousness, being conscious & at least consensus reality.  Lots has been said & argued about what is real & reality.  I was using reality in the sense of the YouTube referenced - nothing more.

The Science channel program "Through the Wormhole w/ Morgan Freeman" asks the question what is real & what is reality a lot. One viewpoint is in the commercial.



yeah i think we both have absorbed the idea that we create our own reality ... that idea is also inherent in Chopra's sequence as well as implied by your original point.  i just thought it needed to be made explicit and form the context in which the second part of the sentence was contemplated:  the whole idea of "is and/or is not" ... the paradox  of the Tao goes away when you can take on the whole consciousness of the universe.  that paradox is an illusion created, as your sentence implied, by that of which you are "unconscious". 

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-28 15:31:31 16606
MR 2013-06-28 15:14:35 16606
I tend to think of reality as more real/solid & perceptual than something that I create.  You added the word create to the discussion which messes things up.  Cognition plays its part, but the word create seems to make it solipsistic.


well the "create" meme comes not only from your new age movements like LOA but also from modern cognitive psychology.   i think we do create how we percieve block by block when we start out as babies ... and, me thinks, that has been pretty much verified by so called scientific experiments.   For example a child raised by an Asian family will actually hear different sounds than that same child raised by a Western family. 

There is no solipsism here because there are things that we share ... it's just that how we percieve and conceive those things in what we are calling here "our reality" is something that we ourselves have constructed. 
Well I don't subscribe to any of that shit. There was something here before I got here & there will be something when I leave.


Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-28 22:03:35 16606
MR 2013-06-28 16:49:59 16606
seth 2013-06-28 15:31:31 16606
MR 2013-06-28 15:14:35 16606
I tend to think of reality as more real/solid & perceptual than something that I create.  You added the word create to the discussion which messes things up.  Cognition plays its part, but the word create seems to make it solipsistic.


well the "create" meme comes not only from your new age movements like LOA but also from modern cognitive psychology.   i think we do create how we perceive block by block when we start out as babies ... and, me thinks, that has been pretty much verified by so called scientific experiments.   For example a child raised by an Asian family will actually hear different sounds than that same child raised by a Western family. 

There is no solipsism here because there are things that we share ... it's just that how we percieve and conceive those things in what we are calling here "our reality" is something that we ourselves have constructed. 
Well I don't subscribe to any of that shit. There was something here before I got here & there will be something when I leave.


strange that you would go there when nothing i said has any bearing on a belief that "something was here before you got here & will be here when you leave".    what i said here is only about how our faculties develop during this life and how that constructs our reality as experienced in this life ... you can believe whatever you choose about an after life and it will not contradict anything i have said here.   extending my life beyond my birth and death, makes for a bigger life,  but i don't see how it  changes my perdicament  in the here and now exceprt as a distraction ... but that is just me ... it has nothing to do with what i said above.
Yep, goes to show that you were relatively unaware when I said what I said about there was something here before i got here ... (reality existing before I got here) & long after I have gone
.'. I didn't create it. Talk about something that has a lot of baggage i.e. the word reality, eh?  Anyway, this is my item & can break the thread you present if it is just mere contradictory.
I ask simply what did you contribute to this whole subject that you think I did not already know?
The one thing I got from Deepak Chopra was a simple presentation of consciousness as many leveled whereas most materialists think of it as just 2 or 3 viz. sleep, dream & awake! When I contemplated the question What is consciousness? a la #BofrNK  I get just the awake version of the answer because that is where I am when I contemplate it, i.e Awake!
You should know by now that I do not subscribe to reality just being personal, i.e. I don't subscribe to that shit!  Points of view may or not be personal.


Mark de LA says
seth 2013-06-29 08:11:58 16606
Well you might consider that guessing what you mean with your terse statements is difficult.   You could hold me stupid for not being able to guess ... or you could try to write more clearly. 

As to what i contributed, please go back to my original comment ... which was me trying to guess what you were talking about.  I puzzled over it for quite a while; and that was after i had watched the movie.  But it didn't really matter, i ended up just using your exact words apart from the guesses and came up with what i still think is a, perhaps to you unusual, view that may have added to what you were thinking of.  The puzzling part was your new terms:  "binary world" and "binary reality".  I don't think either of those terms were used in the movie ... so i had to guess what significance they might have to you.  

Now after all of this back and forth confusion, i'm guessing that you were not referring to any "binary world" or "binary reality" at all ... but were just referring to the two states of consciousness as being binary: "conscious & unconscious".  But then what does "maybe that is what causes their binary world & their binary reality" mean?  I still cannot parse that whole sentence as making sense.  So what i did, was try to make some kind of sense of it in my mind.  This is what i came up with.

See you seem to presume that when you talk to me i should be able to know what you mean ... but that is not the case ... i seem to always have to just guess.  Let us leave aside for a moment who's fault that is ... one way or the other that is a fact of our communication.  Then what i try to do with my guess is try it out in my mind and see if I can add anything to it.   In this case i came up with the idea that our logical reality, where a thing can be or not be, might actualy be created by what we are unconscious of.  LOL ... a strange thought indeed.  It may not be even remotely true.  But for me it was fun to think about.  But apparently you were offended because it went off of your train. 
Move along now, these are not the droids you are looking for:
done!

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