Re: reality just being personal

source: Mark in 16606
You should know by now that I do not subscribe to reality just being personal, i.e. I don't subscribe to that shit!  Points of view may or not be personal.

I call what i actually experience "my reality".   I think everybody who actually parses my words will know what  i am referring to when i use the term "my reality".   I don't believe anybody else is any different than myself in this regard ... so that when you say to me that "this or that is hot" or perhaps that "you experience pain when you see something", i will believe that is your reality. 

The question arises is there anything beyond this personal reality which anybody can experience.   Note my bolded  criteria.  I must assume that there is nothing beyond my personal reality which i can experience.   This is a premise that is necessarily true by virtue exclusively of the way it has been written here.   But note also, that belief does not imply to me that my experience, my reality, is the whole of everything that everybody experiences.  Nor does it imply that i do not share common experiences with many people. 

Tags

  1. reality
  2. item 16606
  3. my experience

Comments


Mark de LA says
... & yet there are other possibilities for shared reality of a different flavor. Once tasted they are quite refreshing & enjoyable.



Seth says
MR 2013-07-08 07:07:11 16612
... & yet there are other possibilities for shared reality of a different flavor. Once tasted they are quite refreshing & enjoyable.



for example?

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-08 07:27:24 16612
MR 2013-07-08 07:07:11 16612
... & yet there are other possibilities for shared reality of a different flavor. Once tasted they are quite refreshing & enjoyable.



for example?
They are probably in my world & not yours. I'm not going to argue them. You have to master the word possibility in any case to understand my statement.

Mark de LA says
Seth says: "For me there is no appeal to authority ... i don't believe that anyone has it. "  ; coupling that with not being able to experience anything outside his own reality helps reject anything new, advice from other people, & constructs an ego that is wholly satisfied with his own inabilities (or at least helps him explain them to himself).
OTOH, this set of beliefs is not particularly useful for me - true or otherwise. I have no reason to limit myself or others by holding beliefs which restrict.
Like I said somewhere else:
I don't know of any real successes in manifestation or knowledge acquisition (or anything) which start out with the words "I can't do ...., I don't deserve ...., I will fail at ...., "nobody can do this ...."etc...

beliefs without utility ? maybe, eh?

Seth says
MR 2013-07-08 07:35:28 16612
seth 2013-07-08 07:27:24 16612
MR 2013-07-08 07:07:11 16612
... & yet there are other possibilities for shared reality of a different flavor. Once tasted they are quite refreshing & enjoyable.



for example?
They are probably in my world & not yours. I'm not going to argue them. You have to master the word possibility in any case to understand my statement.
well i think that a hive mind like ants and bees is definitely a "possibility".   thing is, that does not match my experience of human interaction ... so i reject it.


the other distinct "possibility" is that the separation of minds into individuals is itself illusion.   for me the truth of that is Satori like ... i can visit it for only a moment ... but it does not have any causal effect on what i do in communication with other people.  In other words, where true, it still does not contradict "I must assume that there is nothing beyond my personal reality which i can experience" ... it does not get me out of that predicament.   It is, however, a fun gestalt and can help with an attitude of  "going to a place where there is no contradiction".

similarly the gestalt that it is God moving and becoming aware and the illusion of separation just makes that work.   i do like that one.   but it doesn't change anything between men ... it doesn't change the fact that we are all here figuring it out and/or loving what is happening, and must go only on what we ourselves experience and what we can trust others communicate to us.   in other words, i have no access to your experience except as you communicate or share it with me in a way that i can trust. 

For me there is no appeal to authority ... i don't believe that anyone has it.  I don't believe in an asymmetry among men in this regard ... no even if they practice.  That itself is a gestalt on par with "my ego is an illusion".   It puts the emphasis of my life on that which actually can be shared between us ... for me, all else is not honest, not legitimate, a kind of "hear say" ... at best it is inspirational drama and story telling ... at worst it is a strategy to monetize human gullibility.

Seth says
MR 2013-07-08 10:37:47 16612
Seth says: "For me there is no appeal to authority ... i don't believe that anyone has it. "  ; coupling that with not being able to experience anything outside his own reality helps reject anything new, advice from other people, & constructs an ego that is wholly satisfied with his own inabilities (or at least helps him explain them to himself).
OTOH, this set of beliefs is not particularly useful for me - true or otherwise. I have no reason to limit myself or others by holding beliefs which restrict.
Like I said somewhere else:
I don't know of any real successes in manifestation or knowledge acquisition (or anything) which start out with the words "I can't do ...., I don't deserve ...., I will fail at ...., "nobody can do this ...."etc...

beliefs without utility ? maybe, eh?
Come on Mark ... there is noting whatsoever of "helps reject anything new, advice from other people, & constructs an ego that is wholly satisfied with his own inabilities" in what i have said, nor in what i believe or do.  it is, in fact, an example of ... to quote your own term, "lying about the other side".  

You might want to re-read what i said excluding that interpretation and the assumptions that you brought with you to arrive at it.  In other words you are not seeing the gestalt because  your negative assumptions about it are getting in your way.

The fact of the matter is that i am all about the new things that surprise me and i place no limits on my abilities or what i can do with others at all. 

Look, all i am saying is that "you only experience, what you actually experience ... not what you don't experience".   To think otherwise is to think outside of logic. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-11 06:16:13 16612
MR 2013-07-08 18:19:24 16612
seth 2013-07-08 15:27:35 16612
MR 2013-07-08 14:59:28 16612
seth 2013-07-08 14:45:12 16612
MR 2013-07-08 13:39:00 16612
[snip]
[snip]  it would be more informative to me, if you would clearly express any contrary view of the same thing quite independent of anything that i have said. 

after all, this is not really about you or i ... it is about the human predicament.  so what is the contrary view?  what are  the premises on which that is based?  To what extent is our reality not just what we experience?
For one thing the word reality is a multi-baggaged word. I often question "what is real?" or "Is this ... real?". During an acid trip I formulated an answer which essentially boils down to "it doesn't matter" because I am having a consciousness/soul interaction with whatever it is anyway - (or it is in my consciousness.) BTW, even on acid, I could never hallucinate something that I didn't know was a hallucination.


well,  "whether it is real doesn't matter because i am having a conscious/soul interaction with whatever it is, anyway" certainly does not contradict anything in my view ... rather it might be included. 

do you also believe that what you experience inevitably creates what you consider to be real?

Nope! There is a lot more real shit than that which I experience.
I still prefer to get rid of the term real. Maybe save that one for the Through the Wormhole (w/Morgan Freeman) Science channel series comes up with in future escapades. This is all epistemology shit. Kinda boring .. like a bunch of philosophers sitting around a table philosophizing while the final embers & end of the Universe fades.


bit of a change of topic there, eh?  

Certainly there are vast amounts of shit that you don't experience.  The contradiction of that fact is not embedded in my question.  ... so it does not need to be denied in its answer.

"real" is a perfectly good word.  you can substitute others if you like but they should not change the meaning of the question.  for example you could substitute a term like "believe exists".

certainly this is epistemology ... and philosophy of mind, "shit".   it is very easy to ignore if you have nothing useful to say about it.  you don't even need to tell me that it bores you ... if you don't respond, i will know that it did not get your attention.

The question is about how minds grow.  They grow by experiencing.  That kind of explains why we don't remember much from our babyhood ... there were just not sufficient experiences there with which to have a context to remember it with.

Mark de LA says
MR 2013-07-08 20:09:21 16612
Ontology of the zen persuasion holds that talking about something is not the same flavor as whatever it is, is!

Possibility is NOT probability, is NOT certainty, is no reality except a real possibility, ... etc.
The Tao teaches that the moment you create something its opposite is created as well; else there is no distinction (a much higher level of consciousness).


Seth says
MR 2013-07-08 11:10:54 16612
seth 2013-07-08 10:59:17 16612
MR 2013-07-08 10:37:47 16612
Seth says: "For me there is no appeal to authority ... i don't believe that anyone has it. "  ; coupling that with not being able to experience anything outside his own reality helps reject anything new, advice from other people, & constructs an ego that is wholly satisfied with his own inabilities (or at least helps him explain them to himself).
OTOH, this set of beliefs is not particularly useful for me - true or otherwise. I have no reason to limit myself or others by holding beliefs which restrict.
Like I said somewhere else:
I don't know of any real successes in manifestation or knowledge acquisition (or anything) which start out with the words "I can't do ...., I don't deserve ...., I will fail at ...., "nobody can do this ...."etc...

beliefs without utility ? maybe, eh?
Come on Mark ... there is noting whatsoever of "helps reject anything new, advice from other people, & constructs an ego that is wholly satisfied with his own inabilities" in what i have said, nor in what i believe or do.  it is, in fact, an example of ... to quote your own term, "lying about the other side".  

You might want to re-read what i said excluding that interpretation and the assumptions that you brought with you to arrive at it.  In other words you are not seeing the gestalt because  your negative assumptions about it are getting in your way.

The fact of the matter is that i am all about the new things that surprise me and i place no limits on my abilities or what i can do with others at all. 

Look, all i am saying is that "you only experience, what you actually experience ... not what you don't experience".   To think otherwise is to think outside of logic. 
Seems to me if you believe this: "I must assume that there is nothing beyond my personal reality which i can experience"" nothing new will show up. Similarly with believing nobody else has it; so not listening to anyone else would be that belief's product. The third is an extrapolation & speculation of why you want to believe those things, because you say you must  believe such things. You tell me the why, then.


Well put in there a firm belief in otherness and change.  When i discover something new out of all the otherness out there, then my reality changes.  if there were no otherness, then there would, as you observe, never be anything new ... but there is otherness ... and things do change, even our awareness of them. 

To your second point: we are all in the same predicament ... you, me, Buddha, GW, Steiner etc.

I really have no agenda or hidden motive that i know of to believe this simple thing.  I just have not experienced anything ever that would contradict it.   In fact it imparts no special powers or advantages to me.  Strangely enough, though, disbelieving it can be used as a  grand excuse to usurp a special authority ... there are plenty examples of that around.  So, i guess, it could be just my excuse to deny such authority ... LOL. 

incidentally, this is not just me, it is the foundation of modern linguistic philosophy ... i have also heard it in person from no less than Krishnamurti himself.  think for yourself.  there is no such thing as an authoritative ether of Truth to obtain.  Oh sure, there exists worlds external to all of our minds that we can share ... for example, we can both go to San Francisco,  pick up the same ball and know it is the same, or share the beauty of the sun setting behind Mt. Tamalpais ... but access to a reality beyond that which we can share must needs be personal, and remains private and imaginary until we create a way to share it.   the gestalt is startling.  for me it is the beauty of being human.  and it has none of the negative implications you perpetually thrust upon it. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-08 14:45:12 16612
MR 2013-07-08 13:39:00 16612
Well, you will not be upset when I don't believe you or take you on authority.  Science & Krishnamurti are not matters of consensus nor authority yet we misquote them anyhow, eh? Such is the problem of global warming, cooling & climate change.  Otherness is a contradiction to the world view that says you can't know anything not in your reality even though you made it your escape valve.
I personally don't care if you believe shit or not.  I will be careful to make my discoveries in the sphere of imagination, inspiration & intuition more private so as not to attract (LOA) scorn of your message exemplified by comments on 16618 & often elsewhere.

Your discoveries in the sphere of imagination, inspiration & intuition will have no value to anybody but yourself unless you share them.  i don't remember ever scorning them ... if i did, i apologize.
but, i wish  this dialogue would not degenerated once again to mere ad hominem.   in that light it would be more informative to me, if you would clearly express any contrary view of the same thing quite independent of anything that i have said. 

after all, this is not really about you or i ... it is about the human predicament.  so what is the contrary view?  what are  the premises on which that is based?  To what extent is our reality not just what we experience?
For one thing the word reality is a multi-baggaged word. I often question "what is real?" or "Is this ... real?". During an acid trip I formulated an answer which essentially boils down to "it doesn't matter" because I am having a consciousness/soul interaction with whatever it is anyway - (or it is in my consciousness.) BTW, even on acid, I could never hallucinate something that I didn't know was a hallucination.



Seth says
MR 2013-07-08 13:39:00 16612
Well, you will not be upset when I don't believe you or take you on authority.  Science & Krishnamurti are not matters of consensus nor authority yet we misquote them anyhow, eh? Such is the problem of global warming, cooling & climate change.  Otherness is a contradiction to the world view that says you can't know anything not in your reality even though you made it your escape valve.
I personally don't care if you believe shit or not.  I will be careful to make my discoveries in the sphere of imagination, inspiration & intuition more private so as not to attract (LOA) scorn of your message exemplified by comments on 16618 & often elsewhere.

Your discoveries in the sphere of imagination, inspiration & intuition will have no value to anybody but yourself unless you share them.  i don't remember ever scorning them ... if i did, i apologize.
but, i wish  this dialogue would not degenerated once again to mere ad hominem.   in that light it would be more informative to me, if you would clearly express any contrary view of the same thing quite independent of anything that i have said. 

after all, this is not really about you or i ... it is about the human predicament.  so what is the contrary view?  what are  the premises on which that is based?  To what extent is our reality not just what we experience?

Seth says
MR 2013-07-08 14:59:28 16612
seth 2013-07-08 14:45:12 16612
MR 2013-07-08 13:39:00 16612
[snip]
[snip]  it would be more informative to me, if you would clearly express any contrary view of the same thing quite independent of anything that i have said. 

after all, this is not really about you or i ... it is about the human predicament.  so what is the contrary view?  what are  the premises on which that is based?  To what extent is our reality not just what we experience?
For one thing the word reality is a multi-baggaged word. I often question "what is real?" or "Is this ... real?". During an acid trip I formulated an answer which essentially boils down to "it doesn't matter" because I am having a consciousness/soul interaction with whatever it is anyway - (or it is in my consciousness.) BTW, even on acid, I could never hallucinate something that I didn't know was a hallucination.


well,  "whether it is real doesn't matter because i am having a conscious/soul interaction with whatever it is, anyway" certainly does not contradict anything in my view ... rather it might be included. 

do you also believe that what you experience inevitably creates what you consider to be real?

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