A Reluctance of Act

i don't think the urge to "just do it" is the same thing as doing things randomly like a robot.  i think that urge is used when we already have grocked everything about a situation and know in our being what our deeds about it want to be.  then, instead of bowing to the evil of lethargy or excessive rationalization or quibble, we simply summon courage and "just do it". 

Tags

  1. action
  2. deed
  3. not deed
  4. reluctance
  5. item 16637
  6. plastic habits

Comments


Seth says
M 2013-07-25 08:35:34 16638
So something comes before action like perhaps thinking? imagination? inspiration? intuition? or a gun to our head.


well sure of course any action has its precedents.  in the case of a deed, that precedent  is probably the grocking of what story the deed is to be acted inside.  and of course, some deeds actually do almost require prior calculation of their consequences, else as our story goes those acts will be foolish. 

i think if the story is not sufficiently compelling, then reluctance is prone to set-in and reasons for not  just doing it are likely to ensue. 

the "trick", of course, is to always have a compelling story happening.  me, i tell myself that i am outrageously good at making up those stories .... and even better at tearing them down.  that might almost tend to explain why i have so much trouble with my will.

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-25 09:03:20 16638
M 2013-07-25 08:35:34 16638
So something comes before action like perhaps thinking? imagination? inspiration? intuition? or a gun to our head.


well sure of course any action has its precedents.  in the case of a deed, that precedent  is probably the grocking of what story the deed is to be acted inside.  and of course, some deeds actually do almost require prior calculation of their consequences, else as our story goes those acts will be foolish. 

i think if the story is not sufficiently compelling, then reluctance is prone to set-in and reasons for not  just doing it are likely to ensue. 

the "trick", of course, is to always have a compelling story happening.  me, i tell myself that i am outrageously good at making up those stories .... and even better at tearing them down.  that might almost tend to explain why i have so much trouble with my will.
maybe?

Seth says
M 2013-07-25 13:14:35 16638
M 2013-07-25 13:11:33 16638
Then too there is another saying which is a bit above the Nike pay grade:
LL ch 2,31 & 32
" If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought. "
" If Power asks why, then is Power weakness. "
                 - Aiwas (A.C.)


yep, that is definitely the lick .

there is another aspect of this, and that is the faith that in moving I in fact change my context to that which I move towards ... hence pushing all the pesky rationalizations out of the context.  of course, it is a bit like faith, but it is also a lot like risk or betting that my context will move with my deeds.  or to say it simpler ... err ... just do it !

Seth says
M 2013-07-26 07:15:10 16638
seth 2013-07-26 06:44:16 16638
M 2013-07-25 14:45:19 16638
There is a point where one merges into the new context having already willed.

i'll have to watch for that point .  

for me, it seems, were we to be talking about the same thing, that point is almost always simply when i "do it" ... is it different with you?
Simply expressed, when I have determined that I want to do something in the future without reservation, the appropriate time to act inevitably shows up & I do it. For example, sometime a long time ago I determined that I wanted to remove dirty dish clutter from the house.  I eliminated just putting the dishes in the sink every time I encountered them, but I said whenever, no matter what I do, I will move them closer to the sink no matter what I am doing (given that my hands are not full & I can do it without dropping them) when I discover them (both mine & T's).  So far it works every time. ... (maybe close to your plastic habit).


well, yes definitely, that is exactly my plastic habit .   here, we never have had a big *problem* with dirty dishes collecting around the house, primarily just because i have no reluctance to carry them into the kitchen, they naturally do pop into my hands just exactly as you have described.  denise, however, wants to carry that one step more and insist that they always be placed in the dishwasher.  but determining that should happen does not, in our household, make that appropriate time to act "show up". 

i wish i could honestly say that "when I have determined that I want to do something in the future without reservation, the appropriate time to act inevitably shows up & I do it".   that, for me, perhaps would be the ideal.  for me what happens it that frequently the appropriate time to act does show up, but the context is not as pre-determined in the past and i don't do it.  it does not matter at all about my lack of reservations in the past ... it is my reservations in the current context that control.  i have concluded that i cannot do thing in the future, i must always do them now.   perhaps you mileage there varies quite a bit.   perhps that is because my contexts, my stories, are so very fluid ... maybe yours are more stationary ... i don't know at all.

Mark de LA says
In the Tai Shu Web Brain you can look up the individual pages identified like P.1909 & see what GW has said about the subject. I scraped the screen on my brain here:


Seth says
M 2013-07-26 09:03:30 16638
... or as Anthroposophy & CFR say the will is asleep or close to it.

well that attaches the free will thingey to deeds.  the embedded presumption being, if i do it, i should be totally aware of me doing it ... because, err, it was i doing it. 

for example:  i am thinking and writing about this now.  but i should move into my business day and go find a new source for these for they are sold out and try to figure out why this does not get cut over into the itunes playlist like it should.  earlier in bed with denise we calculated and i agreed that those tasks at least should be accomplished this morning.  yet with no reservations whatsoever as to doing those things, still and all i am here writing this paragraph to you.  that is what I am doing.  in this case, is my will "sleeping" ... am i not aware that I do this now ... err, i don't think so. 

perhaps we need a better example to actually tease out anthroposophy's notion.

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-26 09:46:14 16638
M 2013-07-26 09:03:30 16638
... or as Anthroposophy & CFR say the will is asleep or close to it.

well that attaches the free will thingey to deeds.  the embedded presumption being, if i do it, i should be totally aware of me doing it ... because, err, it was i doing it. 

for example:  i am thinking and writing about this now.  but i should move into my business day and go find a new source for these for they are sold out and try to figure out why this does not get cut over into the itunes playlist like it should.  earlier in bed with denise we calculated and i agreed that those tasks at least should be accomplished this morning.  yet with no reservations whatsoever as to doing those things, still and all i am here writing this paragraph to you.  that is what I am doing.  in this case, is my will "sleeping" ... am i not aware that I do this now ... err, i don't think so. 

perhaps we need a better example to actually tease out anthroposophy's notion.
Well, Seth, you are off the mark.  The Ego is most conscious of thoughts, less conscious of feelings & almost in deep sleep with the will. You can follow a thought easily, a feeling mostly through memory & an associated thought, but as you express so often the actual trigger for an act of will is there in deep sleep. The will is like a match.  What triggers it to flash & burn is still to be learned. You could probably google around in the elib for "will" if you were interested.


Seth says
M 2013-07-26 08:15:58 16638
Besides that, there is the "without reservations" thingy.

like i said in detail above ... the whole problem is when the reservations occur.  reservations and haggeling will prevent doing a deed in the now ... err, don't do it.  that wisdom is known. 
any pure deed will flow naturally without reservation or haggle ... that is when they feel great .
perhaps there is nothing more that need be said here .

Mark de LA says
... or as Anthroposophy & CFR say the will is asleep or close to it.

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-26 09:02:42 16638
M 2013-07-26 08:58:51 16638
seth 2013-07-26 08:42:38 16638
M 2013-07-26 08:13:37 16638
seth 2013-07-26 08:08:58 16638
M 2013-07-26 07:16:12 16638
The first rule of art helps!
what is the first rule of art ?

well yes of course ... don't haggle ... ignore any reservations.  that certainly is the key.  yet it is almost too simple ... for me it is more just a description of "just do it" ... rather than a method to get there.
Nobody said anything about ignore reservations, - deal with them before committing !
you cannot know what reservations will show up until you are actually in the now of the context to act.  nobody has that kind of power of prediction.  there is a logical contradiction in the thrust of your argument here. 
No logical contradiction - just do it!

Seth says
M 2013-07-26 10:09:11 16638
seth 2013-07-26 09:46:14 16638
M 2013-07-26 09:03:30 16638
... or as Anthroposophy & CFR say the will is asleep or close to it.

well that attaches the free will thingey to deeds.  the embedded presumption being, if i do it, i should be totally aware of me doing it ... because, err, it was i doing it. 

for example:  i am thinking and writing about this now.  but i should move into my business day and go find a new source for these for they are sold out and try to figure out why this does not get cut over into the itunes playlist like it should.  earlier in bed with denise we calculated and i agreed that those tasks at least should be accomplished this morning.  yet with no reservations whatsoever as to doing those things, still and all i am here writing this paragraph to you.  that is what I am doing.  in this case, is my will "sleeping" ... am i not aware that I do this now ... err, i don't think so. 

perhaps we need a better example to actually tease out anthroposophy's notion.
Well, Seth, you are off the mark.  The Ego is most conscious of thoughts, less conscious of feelings & almost in deep sleep with the will. You can follow a thought easily, a feeling mostly through memory & an associated thought, but as you express so often the actual trigger for an act of will is there in deep sleep. The will is like a match.  What triggers it to flash & burn is still to be learned. You could probably google around in the elib for "will" if you were interested.


well, mark, i know that is the traditional assertion that we learned from anthrosophy ... but beyond a mere re-assertion of it here, what more are you saying?

i am more or less aware of (conscious of) everything that passes through my being ... thoughts, feelings, and deeds.  i'm thinking that awareness of the thing is not what is in question here ... rather it is awareness of the cause of the thing.   am i  any more aware of what causes a thought to happen in my consciousness than i am aware of what makes me do something?  i actually think not.  usually i think something because of some associated trigger that comes up ... the same kind of trigger goes from what i do ... except in the latter case it is usually something external in the world that is the trigger:  if i am boiling water, the water starting to boil  causes me to drop in the pasta. 

these kind of triggers are not really of concern to a reluctance to act.   the triggers are there is all cases.  at times we are more or less aware of the triggers.  sometimes the the triggers are acted upon ... sometimes not. 

me, i am actually getting close to a conflict of will here ... a reluctance to act ... instead of completing an online order for this, i am carefully thinking out  this comment.  obviously I am more interested in 16638 and your new thoughts on that, than i am in enhancing our new section.  were i not have distracted myself by opening fastblogit news, that conflict would have not shown up.  but i did ... i did do it.   can you shed any light on that?

Seth says
M 2013-07-26 09:02:33 16638
seth 2013-07-26 08:42:38 16638
M 2013-07-26 08:13:37 16638
seth 2013-07-26 08:08:58 16638
M 2013-07-26 07:16:12 16638
The first rule of art helps!
what is the first rule of art ?

well yes of course ... don't haggle ... ignore any reservations.  that certainly is the key.  yet it is almost too simple ... for me it is more just a description of "just do it" ... rather than a method to get there.
Just do it is an empty switch - as Holden Caulfield kept asking "Where's the handle?"


well yes i know, "do it" contains no logical edge that can be used, sans knowing the feeling of the attitude itself.    it does have an additional implication to "have faith, doing this will be ok, your reservations are best ignored". 

Seth says
source: mark above
In the Tai Shu Web Brain you can look up the individual pages identified like P.1909 & see what GW has said about the subject.
i looked at (your?) P.1909 and found ".... Be conscious, reflect, rest, desist from unwise efforts & good fortune will result! In Feelings we dwell on border of inner & outer; in Will impulses we have strong contact with outer world & there may fail to recognize ourselves; but in Thinking we are & always see us as we are; Quicksilver, Sulphur & Salt are the Alchemical terms to relate to! "

hmmm ... ... well certainly we fail to recognize ourselves in the otherness of that which is not us , whereas in thinking we must needs see ourselves only just as we concoct our stories ... if that is actually how we are, then so be it .

outside of the usual advise to be good, i see nothing here about "A Reluctance to Act".

Seth says
its interesting to note that i almost never encounter a reluctance to act in my kitchen .   that may or may not have anything to do with 16637 ...  but knowing where it is not certainly tells me a lot about where it is. 

Seth says
M 2013-07-26 12:37:01 16638
Yeah, nothing new here either from your entire post! I am feeling a reluctance to act any more on this particular item.

well perhaps it goes without saying that newness is in the eyes of the beholder.  even for me, certainly there is no new mantra or linguistic string that can be repeated habitually  contained here like your "the will is asleep" ... of which i maintain there is no real difference there between thought and deed? ... at least for me. 

for me, however, there is a hint of a new way of thinking about these things, that just reciting the mantras from the olden days, will ever get us to. 

but pressure ensues.   denise needs the audio catalog on a cd asap, the first task having been accomplished.  this second thing is much more difficult ... and since my belly is already full might be harder to accomplish because of distractions from my digesting.  for me it seems that all for me "Reluctance to Act" can be primarialy laid at the feet of  this distraction bug that i have.  not bowing to a distraction and maintain instead the intended concentration is of course the way. easier said, easier to think that than it is to "just do it" .

Seth says
M 2013-07-27 07:46:22 16638
seth 2013-07-27 07:14:26 16638
its interesting to note that i almost never encounter a reluctance to act in my kitchen .   that may or may not have anything to do with 16637 ...  but knowing where it is not certainly tells me a lot about where it is. 
That is because your kitchen itself does the work, eh?
PML
... more like a collaboration.  

thing is these things work over time.  

i work on the kitchen, improving it,

i work on my habits, improving them,

when the time comes,

if any reluctance stands off,

it just happens .

Seth says
M 2013-07-27 08:51:12 16638
wtf? "if any reluctance stands off" ?
well yes of course ... if the reluctance to act does not stand off, well then it prevents the deed.  perhaps i could have found a better wording .... what would you have expected there?

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-28 08:24:01 16638
M 2013-07-28 07:36:42 16638
seth 2013-07-28 06:08:50 16638
M 2013-07-27 08:51:12 16638
wtf? "if any reluctance stands off" ?
well yes of course ... if the reluctance to act does not stand off, well then it prevents the deed.  perhaps i could have found a better wording .... what would you have expected there?
still don't understand what you mean by "stand off" or what/who might cause something/someone to "stand off" in the context of reluctance to act.  It sounds like an ass-backwards situation almost like a reluctance to be reluctant. or as the dictionary might translate it an unwillingness to be unwilling.  Why the obscurity?
 

well i don't understand your mis-understanding of this simple effect ... oh well ... let me go into it a bit more.   my favorite example is skiiing down a slope ... if you lean back, and don't lean into the slope, you fall on your ass.  leaning backwards is a reluctance to skii correctly with courage down the slope.  when situations are ripe to do something and yet we quibble and evade action, then that can be  called a "reluctance to act" ... it is hesitation.   if i am doing something i am getting involved with it ... if i am not doing someting i am "standing off" from it, standing back.   i think GW has a line in book chamilion  for it ... perhaps you remember.  there it is not really anything here to over-think or mis-understand ... is there?

re your paragraph:    there is no intention to talk of  reluctance to be reluctant ... my reference has no indirection of that sort.    my sentence kind of just anthropomorphizes this thingey, calling it "reluctance", and then insists that it must stand off, back away, not get involved, if the deed will be done.  it's just a manner of speaking,  can you not hear it?
Yep, I referenced it before (above) "Haggle not, use the First Rule of Art"  Your analogy with skiing is pretty bad since the fear of falling, which is justified if you don't know how to skii properly takes over (it is part of the animal brain along with the fear of loud noises). It is all haggling mostly - similar to what causes us to argue only different - it is arguing with oneself.


Seth says
M 2013-07-28 07:36:42 16638
seth 2013-07-28 06:08:50 16638
M 2013-07-27 08:51:12 16638
wtf? "if any reluctance stands off" ?
well yes of course ... if the reluctance to act does not stand off, well then it prevents the deed.  perhaps i could have found a better wording .... what would you have expected there?
still don't understand what you mean by "stand off" or what/who might cause something/someone to "stand off" in the context of reluctance to act.  It sounds like an ass-backwards situation almost like a reluctance to be reluctant. or as the dictionary might translate it an unwillingness to be unwilling.  Why the obscurity?
 

well i don't understand your mis-understanding of this simple effect ... oh well ... let me go into it a bit more.   my favorite example is skiiing down a slope ... if you lean back, and don't lean into the slope, you fall on your ass.  leaning backwards is a reluctance to skii correctly with courage down the slope.  when situations are ripe to do something and yet we quibble and evade action, then that can be  called a "reluctance to act" ... it is hesitation.   if i am doing something i am getting involved with it ... if i am not doing someting i am "standing off" from it, standing back.   i think GW has a line in book chamilion  for it ... perhaps you remember.  there it is not really anything here to over-think or mis-understand ... is there?

re your paragraph:    there is no intention to talk of  reluctance to be reluctant ... my reference has no indirection of that sort.    my sentence kind of just anthropomorphizes this thingey, calling it "reluctance", and then insists that it must stand off, back away, not get involved, if the deed will be done.  it's just a manner of speaking,  can you not hear it?

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-28 09:40:12 16638
Well yes i think we have it ... so the thought could have been written ...

things work over time.  

work on the kitchen, improving it,

work on habits, improving them,

when the time comes,

haggle not,

it will just happen.

Same thought, different manner of speaking, different voice.  This one is a command, the other was in first person externalizing the haggle.  it describes what happens when there is no "reluctance to act". 

the real point is actually in the first sentence:  things work over time.   If i zoom in on a specific deed, i don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to insist that "i did it" as opposed to  "my kitchen did it".   Bearing in mind that what i call "my kitchen" includes all the utensils and ingredients that i accumulated in that room in addition to the habits that i have trained into my hands.   it is doing that work over time, that creating of the kitchen, of the situations which obtain in that room, that permit of free flowing deed sans hesitation.

Can you not see it that way?
I suppose so.  I still don't like the word reluctance but according to the etymology it is probably appropriate.  Since we are talking about something that is familiar to most people, precision in language seems appropriate; otherwise why talk about it all. Over time is just wishy-washy to me - just gives dimension to clearing out the reservations & becoming congruent with what you want to do.  Over time, astronomically speaking, everything is moot.


Seth says
Well yes i think we have it ... so the thought could have been written ...

things work over time.  

work on the kitchen, improving it,

work on habits, improving them,

when the time comes,

haggle not,

it will just happen.

Same thought, different manner of speaking, different voice.  This one is a command, the other was in first person externalizing the haggle.  it describes what happens when there is no "reluctance to act". 

the real point is actually in the first sentence:  things work over time.   If i zoom in on a specific deed, i don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to insist that "i did it" as opposed to  "my kitchen did it".   Bearing in mind that what i call "my kitchen" includes all the utensils and ingredients that i accumulated in that room in addition to the habits that i have trained into my hands.   it is doing that work over time, that creating of the kitchen, of the situations which obtain in that room, that permit of free flowing deed sans hesitation.

Can you not see it that way?

Seth says
M 2013-07-28 11:18:02 16638
Yep! Myopia warps the space-time continuum. Makes one think things are smaller than they are.
PML
do we not, frequently,project onto others those very qualities which we do not want to see in ourselves ?

Seth says
M 2013-07-28 10:43:13 16638
seth 2013-07-28 10:34:51 16638
source: mark above
Over time is just wishy-washy to me - just gives dimension to clearing out the reservations & becoming congruent with what you want to do.
... .  this is the same kind of thing that Alan Wats is talking about here.  to select the best context for attributing cause and credit, we need to zoom out to appropriate boundaries.  a narrow time frame just does not cut it.  go into your kitchen and see if bacon, eggs, and toast emerges in about half an hour ... it may or may not ... but if you prepare you kitchen over time and your habits of acting there, it bloody will.  there is nothing wishy washy about that at all.  to me, it just appears as the facts of the way things work.
Yep, I'm still waiting for World Peace & the prosperity of Obama's economy to show up, but time is irrelevant since the economy has to tank really bad first & then the phoenix rise from the ashes. Time is irrelevant, though because it bloody [sic] will!

woopse, i have no idea how that relates to any of this.

anyway, the point is that to do something, something at all interesting, something in our lives, something above the level of wiping our ass, we need to work on the environment around us and on our habits of interacting with it, not on ourselves internally, as tony robbins would have us think.  deeds flow naturally when we take that attitude.  at least they do for me.  that is not to say that everything is perfect over here.  hesitrations happen.  distractions happen.  lust ensues and is responded to. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-07-28 12:15:40 16638
M 2013-07-28 11:18:02 16638
Yep! Myopia warps the space-time continuum. Makes one think things are smaller than they are.
PML
do we not, frequently,project onto others those very qualities which we do not want to see in ourselves ?
Nope! ... too much rwg invitation there. Kinda like "so's your mother..." etc.


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