i am ok ... you are not ok
About: Games People Play

The solution, in the context of useful dialogue, of course, is to separate the analysis of ideas from the credit for recognizing them. When we are interested in the ideas themselves, and not in playing some i'm better than you are game, then we can talk adult to adult and maybe even function as two where functioning as one is inadequate.
Tags
- rwg
- behavior
- about rwg
- imokyounot
- eric berne
- item 1772
Comments

yeah i found that too. the book has many games in it, many of them are not the games a lot of us play.
but one game in that book is the rwg. it is adopting the tone of a parent talking to a child, which calls forth a reaction of the same. it is i'm ok, your not ok. i can use this model to predict both of our comment behavior. it almost never fails.


you are also right in that it is not a "game" in many senses of the word "game". thing is it is a behavior that we havitually do and apparently we habitually do things because we "get something" out it doing it at some level. i do believe that was the sense that eric berne was using the word.
OTOH, you could think of the psychological anchor you have for your father as the source for your confusion of Berne's games with the RWG.
(IMHO - which is neither)


Maybe after things settle consider your "new distinction" from Berne's old book as uncollapsed from the RWG & clarity may ensue (or not?)

I'm saying they are substantially the same thing. Berne goes an extra step by associating "being right and the other being wrong" with the habit and pay-back for being "a parent to a child". It seems reasonable to assume that is where the habit starts ... then like the little monkeys we are, we mimic the behavior of our parents.
What do you mean, different than that, by "uncollapsed"?

oh, is that what you meant

anyway i am talking here about the habit of "insisting that you are right and the other is wrong". the cause of that is, for me, is just kind of a matter of conjecture. berne associated it with parental behavior; but it doesn't really matter to me where it started or what is the cause. The important, salient edge, for me is that we can choose to do it or not. Oh, and that i can predict comment behavior based upon it: if i talk down to you, you will do the same in respons ... happens almost every time.
Maybe after things settle consider your "new distinction" from Berne's old book as uncollapsed from the RWG & clarity may ensue (or not?)

I'm saying they are substantially the same thing. Berne goes an extra step by associating "being right and the other being wrong" with the habit and pay-back for being "a parent to a child". It seems reasonable to assume that is where the habit starts ... then like the little monkeys we are, we mimic the behavior of our parents.
What do you mean, different than that, by "uncollapsed"?

oh, is that what you meant

anyway i am talking here about the habit of "insisting that you are right and the other is wrong". the cause of that is, for me, is just kind of a matter of conjecture. berne associated it with parental behavior; but it doesn't really matter to me where it started or what is the cause. The important, salient edge, for me is that we can choose to do it or not. Oh, and that i can predict comment behavior based upon it: if i talk down to you, you will do the same in respons ... happens almost every time.



Well yes, those words sure hangs together well


Did you think there was something else there?

Maybe after things settle consider your "new distinction" from Berne's old book as uncollapsed from the RWG & clarity may ensue (or not?)

I'm saying they are substantially the same thing. Berne goes an extra step by associating "being right and the other being wrong" with the habit and pay-back for being "a parent to a child". It seems reasonable to assume that is where the habit starts ... then like the little monkeys we are, we mimic the behavior of our parents.
What do you mean, different than that, by "uncollapsed"?

oh, is that what you meant

anyway i am talking here about the habit of "insisting that you are right and the other is wrong". the cause of that is, for me, is just kind of a matter of conjecture. berne associated it with parental behavior; but it doesn't really matter to me where it started or what is the cause. The important, salient edge, for me is that we can choose to do it or not. Oh, and that i can predict comment behavior based upon it: if i talk down to you, you will do the same in respons ... happens almost every time.



Well yes, those words sure hangs together well


Maybe after things settle consider your "new distinction" from Berne's old book as uncollapsed from the RWG & clarity may ensue (or not?)

I'm saying they are substantially the same thing. Berne goes an extra step by associating "being right and the other being wrong" with the habit and pay-back for being "a parent to a child". It seems reasonable to assume that is where the habit starts ... then like the little monkeys we are, we mimic the behavior of our parents.
What do you mean, different than that, by "uncollapsed"?

oh, is that what you meant

anyway i am talking here about the habit of "insisting that you are right and the other is wrong". the cause of that is, for me, is just kind of a matter of conjecture. berne associated it with parental behavior; but it doesn't really matter to me where it started or what is the cause. The important, salient edge, for me is that we can choose to do it or not. Oh, and that i can predict comment behavior based upon it: if i talk down to you, you will do the same in respons ... happens almost every time.



Well yes, those words sure hangs together well


Did you think there was something else there?

well, yes, of course

But why bring that up in this context? The cause of the RWG is not important to me or even this conversation. If whatever we think about the cause of the RWG is bullshit, then so be it ... it is not of any importance to me here.
What is important to me here is that the RWG is something that we can choose to do or not to do. Also that i can predict that: if i talk down to you, then you will respond in kind. Since that just gets us in an unproductive infinite loop, i choose, as best that i can not to talk down to you.
Do you not agree that for me that is a good strategy to have a useful conversation with you?
Maybe after things settle consider your "new distinction" from Berne's old book as uncollapsed from the RWG & clarity may ensue (or not?)

I'm saying they are substantially the same thing. Berne goes an extra step by associating "being right and the other being wrong" with the habit and pay-back for being "a parent to a child". It seems reasonable to assume that is where the habit starts ... then like the little monkeys we are, we mimic the behavior of our parents.
What do you mean, different than that, by "uncollapsed"?

oh, is that what you meant

anyway i am talking here about the habit of "insisting that you are right and the other is wrong". the cause of that is, for me, is just kind of a matter of conjecture. berne associated it with parental behavior; but it doesn't really matter to me where it started or what is the cause. The important, salient edge, for me is that we can choose to do it or not. Oh, and that i can predict comment behavior based upon it: if i talk down to you, you will do the same in respons ... happens almost every time.



Well yes, those words sure hangs together well


Did you think there was something else there?

well, yes, of course

But why bring that up in this context? The cause of the RWG is not important to me or even this conversation. If whatever we think about the cause of the RWG is bullshit, then so be it ... it is not of any importance to me here.
What is important to me here is that the RWG is something that we can choose to do or not to do. Also that i can predict that: if i talk down to you, then you will respond in kind. Since that just gets us in an unproductive infinite loop, i choose, as best that i can not to talk down to you.
Do you not agree that for me that is a good strategy to have a useful conversation with you?

The zero-sum property (if one gains, another loses) means that any result of a zero-sum situation is Pareto optimal (generally, any game where all strategies are Pareto optimal is called a conflict game).
You have recognized this syndrome also and have called it "The Right Wrong Game".
Berne also recognized it and called it "I'm ok, your not ok". He associated the parent to child attitude to the behavior ... in the sense that parents "talk down" to their children when they are correcting them. But as you have pointed out, and i agree, this syndrome is not always associated with a parental attitude.
But is there anything that importantly distinguishes "i'm right, your wrong" from "i'm ok, your not" or from "i win, you loose" ?
Or maybe we should ask: What is the common theme between all three?
Or in any given event which could honestly be tagged with one of those terms, could it not also be tagged with the other two? If not, why not?
What am i missing?

The zero-sum property (if one gains, another loses) means that any result of a zero-sum situation is Pareto optimal (generally, any game where all strategies are Pareto optimal is called a conflict game).
You have recognized this syndrome also and have called it "The Right Wrong Game".
Berne also recognized it and called it "I'm ok, your not ok". He associated the parent to child attitude to the behavior ... in the sense that parents "talk down" to their children when they are correcting them. But as you have pointed out, and i agree, this syndrome is not always associated with a parental attitude.
But is there anything that importantly distinguishes "i'm right, your wrong" from "i'm ok, your not" or from "i win, you loose" ?
Or maybe we should ask: What is the common theme between all three?
Or in any given event which could honestly be tagged with one of those terms, could it not also be tagged with the other two? If not, why not?
What am i missing?





The zero-sum property (if one gains, another loses) means that any result of a zero-sum situation is Pareto optimal (generally, any game where all strategies are Pareto optimal is called a conflict game).
You have recognized this syndrome also and have called it "The Right Wrong Game".
Berne also recognized it and called it "I'm ok, your not ok". He associated the parent to child attitude to the behavior ... in the sense that parents "talk down" to their children when they are correcting them. But as you have pointed out, and i agree, this syndrome is not always associated with a parental attitude.
But is there anything that importantly distinguishes "i'm right, your wrong" from "i'm ok, your not" or from "i win, you loose" ?
Or maybe we should ask: What is the common theme between all three?
Or in any given event which could honestly be tagged with one of those terms, could it not also be tagged with the other two? If not, why not?
What am i missing?


Well my intention in continuing the dialogue and trying to deepen our mutual understanding here is not to "get you to minimize bringing RWG up" ... no not at all ... in fact when you label something as RWG i almost always agree that RWG is going on there. It is not the labeling that is the problem for me. It is the doing of the game. I would totally love it if we both stopped insisting that the other was wrong with ourselves being right ...

Dialectics does require that conflicts and contradictions are recognized. Our conversations would be quite boring, and lack motivation, should we eliminate contradictions. The goal, of course, is to understand and resolve them. But, me thinks, our personalities and credits should recede to the background and never interfere with our rational and spiritual comprehensions of the topics.

Alternate-reality games (ARGs) somehow managed to miss the mobile boat, with the stunning exception of Ingress, made by Google's own Niantic Labs. It's a shame — but it's heartening to see that Google Glass has already attracted an ARG dev, creating an MMOARG based on ... ants.
It's called Swarm, and sees you using Google Glass to perform tasks to help your colony succeed, collecting resources and defending against rival colonies.
It works a little like Ingress in that it can take place as you go about your daily life. First, the game maps the player's daily routine using GPS data, laying colourful "trails" on a map card. Developers Jon Lawhead of Columbia University and Daniel Estrada of the University of Illinois note that this data cannot be used to track any one user; instead, it is used to examine patterns of behaviour and where those patterns intersect with those of other users.



I have just recently discovered a rule i can apply to determine if one of my responses in a dialogue game is a good one: if after writing the comment, i am extremely curious how others will respond, then it is good. Alternatively, if i can fairly accurately predict their response, it is bad.




I have just recently discovered a rule i can apply to determine if one of my responses in a dialogue game is a good one: if after writing the comment, i am extremely curious how others will respond, then it is good. Alternatively, if i can fairly accurately predict their response, it is bad.




well to figure out what something means to another, you must try to put your own mind in their shoes. not something that i want to stop.


I have just recently discovered a rule i can apply to determine if one of my responses in a dialogue game is a good one: if after writing the comment, i am extremely curious how others will respond, then it is good. Alternatively, if i can fairly accurately predict their response, it is bad.




well to figure out what something means to another, you must try to put your own mind in their shoes. not something that i want to stop.


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