Catch22

About: logic of Catch22 explained on Wikipedia


More generally i think we are talking here about double binds. 
source: double bind at Wikipedia
the essence of a double bind is two conflicting demands, each on a different logical level, neither of which can be ignored or escaped. This leaves the victim torn both ways, so that whichever demand they try to meet, the other demand cannot be met. "I must do it, but I can't do it" is a typical description of the double-bind experience.

It might be interesting to examine Catch22 and double binds generally in relation to the RWG and other zero sum games.   The question can be asked:  given that two people hold contradictory beliefs, must the conversation between them in the context of those beliefs,  be a right wrong game ?

Tags

  1. catch22
  2. about rwg
  3. item 1772
  4. contradiction
  5. not rwg

Comments


Seth says
M 2013-08-13 08:31:06 16693
Funny thing about the RWG is if you make it wrong or have to escape it your are back in the game. The phrase "Seth (or Obama) is a turd! (or not)!" is a clue to a direction out of the game.
If you can master the art of seeing things from another point of view & then all 12 zodiacal points of view multiplied by the 7 moods of consciousness you will probably not be strangled by the game.
BUT, maybe not?

Thanks for saying that bold blue truth ... this is one aspect of the Catch22 that provoked this item .

Thing is, RWG is a bad habit in the sense that it prevents mutual understandings, productive conversation, and arriving at useful agreements.  So our first agenda should be to decide to avoid it ... can  i get a high five on that?

And i agree that "mastering the art of seeing things from another point of view" is totally one way out of the loop.

Mark de LA says
seth 2013-08-13 09:55:17 16693
M 2013-08-13 08:31:06 16693
Funny thing about the RWG is if you make it wrong or have to escape it your are back in the game. The phrase "Seth (or Obama) is a turd! (or not)!" is a clue to a direction out of the game.
If you can master the art of seeing things from another point of view & then all 12 zodiacal points of view multiplied by the 7 moods of consciousness you will probably not be strangled by the game.
BUT, maybe not?

Thanks for saying that bold blue truth ... this is one aspect of the Catch22 that provoked this item .

Thing is, RWG is a bad habit in the sense that it prevents mutual understandings, productive conversation, and arriving at useful agreements.  So our first agenda should be to decide to avoid it ... can  i get a high five on that?

And i agree that "mastering the art of seeing things from another point of view" is totally one way out of the loop.
It is NOT a habit ontologically. It is a way of being to protect the Ego.  No high fives on that aspect. It is not Catch22 - no high fives there on that collapse because that is just intellectual or rational.

Mark de LA says
An automatic response is not necessarily a habit. The shock of loud noises & the fear of falling are automatic, part of the machinery, responses, but I wouldn't call them a habit. A habit is something like brushing your teeth or eating too much - something where you have a choice even though you don't like it (or not).


Seth says
M 2013-08-13 07:59:35 16693
M 2013-08-13 07:44:12 16693
FYI 1722
& all these days since I read the book, & saw the movie, I thought the quote was "anyone without actual combat experience can't be sent to the front lines".
It may explain a double bind. RWG is not about a double bind.  RWG is not about logic. RWG is not directly just about beliefs. It is more about feelings & the ego - ontologically speaking, the illusion of winning & losing; perhaps just about opinions here at fbi.  Did you try the arm wrestle game with your son, previously described, to get my point?  ... the automaticity? the built-in metaprogram nature of the phenomenon?

Well i totally agree , RWG is not "about" logic.  It is an automatic response ... or, saying the same thing differently,  it is a habitual behavior.  I didn't need to do the arm wresteling because i have always known that it is automatic and habitual.   In fact this habit, this automaticity, is so reliable that i can predict not only my behavior but also yours.  Me thinks we have always been in violent agreement on your point there
.

Mark de LA says
Ignoring something (on purpose or not) is also a part of the rwg; like an escape valve from something you hold as wrong but avoid the conflict.



Mark de LA says
We are actually doing good here refining a distinction. In making a distinction what we do is separate that which something IS from that which it is NOT. A turd & a cucumber have sometimes the same  or similar morphology (except for color, smell etc.) . Some stuff resembles other stuff,
but is not it. Refining a distinction is different from collapsing a bunch of distinctions. In the latter case one is moving toward classification & in the former making something more clear from the background to see it better.


Seth says
source: you say above
It [RWG] is NOT a habit ontologically. It is a way of being to protect the Ego.
I agree that RWG is probably a way to "protect the ego".   But that does not imply to me that it is not a habitual way to do something.  Some people do it far more than others.  Some people don't always do it.  In some cultures it is rarely done.  I think you do it more than i do it, but i expect that you will feel the opposite.  I don't think it is a reflex hard wired into our souls.  Perhaps, in some people,  it could be called an "instinct" like the urge to fuck.  After all that instinct also varies between people and between cultures.  We can become obsessed with the urge to fuck, or we can be quite casual about it.  I think you would agree with me if i said, "a person who has become obsessed with fucking, has a bad habit" ... would you not?

Do we really have any disagreement here at all?

Seth says
M 2013-08-13 13:15:13 16693
We are actually doing good here refining a distinction. In making a distinction what we do is separate that which something IS from that which it is NOT. A turd & a cucumber have sometimes the same  or similar morphology (except for color, smell etc.) . Some stuff resembles other stuff,
but is not it. Refining a distinction is different from collapsing a bunch of distinctions. In the latter case one is moving toward classification & in the former making something more clear from the background to see it better.



i think that these words most frequently mean different things to different people.   i think we both know that.   with good dialogue we should be able to form understandings of what the words mean to each other, then with good will in our hearts, we should be able to figure out what is common, what the real contradictions are,  and why they are different in both of our souls.

Seth says
M 2013-08-13 10:15:51 16693
An automatic response is not necessarily a habit. The shock of loud noises & the fear of falling are automatic, part of the machinery, responses, but I wouldn't call them a habit. A habit is something like brushing your teeth or eating too much - something where you have a choice even though you don't like it (or not).


I agree, an RWG response is not a reflex, it is not an "automatic response" in the sense where if you tap my knee my foot will kick.   RWG it subject to my will, i can do it, or not do it ... if i most usually do it the same way, then i call that a "habit". 

Shouldn't we be in agreement with that way of talking about this?

Mark de LA says
      It is hard to agree with what you recently said simply because it is a direct contradiction (deframe) of what I previously said.
      How does that work for you in your mind?
     The RWG is similar to mismatching metaprogram of NLP. It is not a habit but a self-survival program.  A habit is something you have, etymologically speaking. You can get rid of it. I know nobody, including you, who has gotten rid of the RWG. I don't pretend to have done so either! The RWG is NOT something you can just negotiate or talk out of existence. I'm not even sure that would be desirable necessarily.  Not having an ego could put you in the nut house (or not).
Nevertheless we can be civil in discourse & open to other ideas if we choose. I prefer the choice thingy & suspending for a time some disbeliefs to handle special occasions & to further progress.
Of course we could haggle about what is progress or not in most cases of political discussion.


Seth says
M 2013-08-15 06:40:24 16693
      It is hard to agree with what you recently said simply because it is a direct contradiction (deframe) of what I previously said.
      How does that work for you in your mind?
     The RWG is similar to mismatching metaprogram of NLP. It is not a habit but a self-survival program.  A habit is something you have, etymologically speaking. You can get rid of it. I know nobody, including you, who has gotten rid of the RWG. I don't pretend to have done so either! The RWG is NOT something you can just negotiate or talk out of existence. I'm not even sure that would be desirable necessarily.  Not having an ego could put you in the nut house (or not).
Nevertheless we can be civil in discourse & open to other ideas if we choose. I prefer the choice thingy & suspending for a time some disbeliefs to handle special occasions & to further progress.
Of course we could haggle about what is progress or not in most cases of political discussion.


Well to answer your direct question, it works in my mind as "same as it ever was", just more of the same.  Me, i have thought that there actually was a possibility, with good will, to drill down and both of us understand the contradictions in each other that continually crop up sparking  arm wrestling with each other, instead of communicating about topics.  But hey, civil discourse and being open to others ideas, perhaps, is quite good enough .


Mark de LA says
2013-08-16 08:58:49 16693
But hey, dude - I say that the exact opposite of what you say is true & your're just never going to get that.  But hey, dude - that's just the way it is. Don't you agree?????
I guess that's just good enough!



Seth says
M 2013-08-16 09:04:18 16693
2013-08-16 08:58:49 16693
But hey, dude - I say that the exact opposite of what you say is true & your're just never going to get that.  But hey, dude - that's just the way it is. Don't you agree?????
I guess that's just good enough!



Well ok ... let's try it differently ...

I think we both agree that there is an initial instinctual automatic reaction that almost always happens when somebody attacks what we hold to be true.   I think most people respond to the hurt of the attack pretty must the same way every time it happens, but i don't think that response is wired into our beings.  It varies from person to person, from culture to culture, and from time to time.  It can be changed.  That is all i am saying.   How is that different than what you are saying?

Where i disagree with the way you talk about this is that you seem to imply that there is some "Zen" in attacking back ... as it were some mystical value in carrying out the mandatory program.   Well i certainly agree with you about the value of realizing some deed is being caused by an automatic program.  For me, such a realization is just a prerequisite  to finding a more useful reaction.   But in and of itself the execution of this  automatic program holds no special satori ... no zen .... for me, all i get from doing it, or having it done to me, is  nausea.  How is that so very different from your framing?

Seth says
seth 2013-08-19 09:52:23 16693
M 2013-08-16 09:04:18 16693
2013-08-16 08:58:49 16693
But hey, dude - I say that the exact opposite of what you say is true & your're just never going to get that.  But hey, dude - that's just the way it is. Don't you agree?????
I guess that's just good enough!



Well ok ... let's try it differently ...

I think we both agree that there is an initial instinctual automatic reaction that almost always happens when somebody attacks what we hold to be true.   I think most people respond to the hurt of the attack pretty must the same way every time it happens, but i don't think that response is wired into our beings.  It varies from person to person, from culture to culture, and from time to time.  It can be changed.  That is all i am saying.   How is that different than what you are saying?

Where i disagree with the way you talk about this is that you seem to imply that there is some "Zen" in attacking back ... as it were some mystical value in carrying out the mandatory program.   Well i certainly agree with you about the value of realizing some deed is being caused by an automatic program.  For me, such a realization is just a prerequisite  to finding a more useful reaction.   But in and of itself the execution of this  automatic program holds no special satori ... no zen .... for me, all i get from doing it, or having it done to me, is  nausea.  How is that so very different from your framing?
Well, your first paragraph, while not really a summary of what I have said, at least is cogent; the last paragraph fails such a test for cogency.  You can leave zen out of it since that would be unzen in the first place. Everything is variable from time to time etc.  nothing interesting there. The RWG is part of the program of the machinery.  Luckily we are not totally machines & can suspend that program briefly & as we have both found out - infrequently.


Seth says
well i'm going to call that agreement .

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