Secrecy vs Power vs Freedom

About: Joshua Allen talks about secrecy and omnipotence


an interesting dialogue ...

Basically this raises the question of how much power do you (or a organization) gain over people by being secretive ... and how much power do you give up by being transparent.  

Perhaps there is a connection between freedom and secrecy.

Tags

  1. secrecy
  2. privacy
  3. omnipotence
  4. freedom
  5. otherness

Comments


Seth says
Joshua elaborated ...
The idea is that the gulf in power and awareness between the two sides is so huge, that the weaker person's freedom is entirely at the stronger's indulgence. The stronger person can always manipulate the environment to ensure that, no matter what the weaker person does, the outcome will ultimately be an outcome the stronger person chose.

A mild case of this would be between a parent and a young child. The child thinks he can make himself disappear by covering his eyes, and can't even comprehend the possibility of his parents' level of awareness. Another example would be a person ensnared in a con, who is being controlled through deception and misinformation. Or imagine an ultra-despotic tyrant with spies everywhere, who decides to get involved with a peasant. At the extreme, it raises a basic question about the coherence of making comparisons between an omnipotent, omniscient being and a limited mortal.

It does seem that nature has granted us a profound secrecy from out peers (and hence freedom) ... we cannot read each others minds. 

I think "freedom and secrecy" are  positively correlated.  Thing is there must be a flip side to that ... something like "Synergy and secrecy" are negatively correlated.  Quite a complex world we live in, eh?

Seth says
ME 2013-08-27 11:58:42 16722
seth 2013-08-27 11:50:36 16722
ME 2013-08-27 10:55:40 16722
not found - apparently private to somebody
you probably could get it by subscribing to Joshua Allen's posts if you don't want to friend him.  I met him in the kabal, he works for Microsoft, and i respect his thoughts and opinions.  i put this here primarialy as a book mark ... it does relate to a whole lot of what i (even you perhaps) have been thinking about.

But i shared the post on my own timeline here, you should be able to read it there.
Well it is still not available & can't see it on your timeline.  Never mind, it need not escape the cabal.

actually that is good to know, the Facebook "secrecy" worked perfectly here.   Joshua shared those comment just with his friends, but not with friends of friends, and i could not get around that by sharing it with my friends.  I guess you couldn't even see what i wrote about it when i shared it.

of course, this had nothing to do with the kabal which hasn't met since William died ... too bad, it was a good social group of interesting and involved people.

Seth says
ME 2013-08-28 06:33:20 16722
So what did you discover about Secrecy, Power & Freedom which is not obvious? There is good & bad secrecy. Likewise there is good & bad power & good & bad Freedom. There is some interplay between the three. There is some difference depending upon the size of the organization & whether it is governmental, incorporate or occult. So what?



Joshua's was comparing entities which are extremely powerful compared to their constituents ... like for example Parent->Child ... or Microsoft->an employee ... or Government->a citizen ... or God->a man.   Where the stronger allows the weaker to be secretitive, they grant "personhood" ... Joshua's word.   Alternatively when they withhold the ability to hide, they rob the weeker of "personhood". 

My response was ..
source: me in "hidden" comment
Very interesting ... granting secrecy can be directly seen as a way of granting person-hood and freedom to act. A superior person (or organization) yields power, becomes less omnipotent, by granting secrecy to its inferiors. Alternatively a superior enslaves by denying secrecy to a inferior. And by denying secrecy to itself, a superior also yields power. Personally i have always lobbied for more transparency ... all around ... but this does shed some doubt on that as a singular perspective.

And incidentally granting secrecy to an peer, respecting their privacy, grants them freedom ... that is the same kind of thing as respecting their otherness. 



Seth says
seth 2013-08-29 08:44:33 16722
ME 2013-08-29 08:16:09 16722
ME 2013-08-29 07:42:16 16722
I think you have secrecy collapsed with a lot of other stuff, perhaps even including power over. There is both an inside world in evolution (mind, soul, spirit, psyche ..) & an outside world in evolution (body,physical, ... all the rest) . One may experience freedom on the inside while in jail. One may experience restriction while living in million dollar mansions all over the world. You can extrapolate from there.



I think the same correlation applies equally between the inside world of mind, soul, spirit and the outside world of the physical body.  Here we talk of freedom as lack of control from other.  If the other has complete access to whatever is going on withing your spirit (ie you have no secrecy from them), and if the other is omnipotent, then your freedom is at their indulgence.   Alternatively if you have complete secrecy and the other cannot access what is going on in your soul, then you are quite free of their control.  Why do you think that inside/outside makes a difference here?
I disagree with your first sentence about correlation; you can't find consciousness in the outside world; probably can't define it well either or pin it down. The last part is just reasserting what you have already said. I just conclude that not all control, power (over), etc is physical or secrecy-based. The best example is how politicians get you to vote to spend your own money for things you don't want! ... no secrecy involved except , perhaps, how corrupt the politicians really are. To quote GW (paraphrased) There are no real permanent secrets. Just like what goes on in quantum physics or your iPad to make it work is obscured from those without the training & knowledge of the fields involved or know-how - so some things appear to be secret to the untrained & unconscious & willfully ignorant. Snowden proved that even government secrets are not permanent. Despots & tyrants like Kimun may survive a while & maintain such via keeping others from looking in, but in the end they become compost. Their methods are the traditional power methods of guns & imprisonment.


Seth says
ME 2013-08-29 08:16:09 16722
ME 2013-08-29 07:42:16 16722
I think you have secrecy collapsed with a lot of other stuff, perhaps even including power over. There is both an inside world in evolution (mind, soul, spirit, psyche ..) & an outside world in evolution (body,physical, ... all the rest) . One may experience freedom on the inside while in jail. One may experience restriction while living in million dollar mansions all over the world. You can extrapolate from there.



I think the same correlation applies equally between the inside world of mind, soul, spirit and the outside world of the physical body.  Here we talk of freedom as lack of control from other.  If the other has complete access to whatever is going on withing your spirit (ie you have no secrecy from them), and if the other is omnipotent, then your freedom is at their indulgence.   Alternatively if you have complete secrecy and the other cannot access what is going on in your soul, then you are quite free of their control.  Why do you think that inside/outside makes a difference here?

Seth says
(*)

Seth says
Hmmm... secrecy, eh? What's the power trip here except the POTUS? Worse than Snowden?
source: ...he impending U.S. military action in Syria is likely to extend beyond the capital city of Damascus, and would be focused on the delivery systems for the Syrian regime's chemical weapons arsenal, sources told Fox News. 

These systems, and the U.S. military strikes against them, would accordingly include both command-and-control facilities located in the capital but also Syria's short-range missile launchers and artillery positions, which are said to be located in mountainous areas outside of the city.

Bashar al-Assad's presidential palace and Syrian government ministry buildings are not expected to be among the sites the U.S. will strike, the sources said. In part, this reflects the fact that many of the key officials and systems at such facilities have already been evacuated, the sources said.

... nice! we're just going to expend bombs to destroy shit that probably isn't there.




Seth says
Here is secrecy at it's nefarious best:
....
COURT ALLOWS OBAMA TO KEEP WHITE HOUSE VISITOR LOGS SECRET...

Sealed for up to 12 years...
.....
Now why if this is the people's house is anything secret needed?  Who is plotting with the president against the people?
The most open & transparent administration ?


Seth says
seth 2013-08-31 09:16:25 16722
ME 2013-08-31 09:01:22 16722
seth 2013-08-31 07:09:47 16722
ME 2013-08-31 06:26:19 16722
Here is secrecy at it's nefarious best:
....
COURT ALLOWS OBAMA TO KEEP WHITE HOUSE VISITOR LOGS SECRET...

Sealed for up to 12 years...
.....
Now why if this is the people's house is anything secret needed?  Who is plotting with the president against the people?
The most open & transparent administration ?


Well, yes of course, this is an example of "secrecy increases power".  Transparency would decrease the power of the White House.  By George, i think you got it .
Wrong moral to that story.  Secrecy, in this case, breeds CORRUPTION -  got it? When the secrecy fails, and it eventually will, the flood gates open & all imaginary power is proven transient.
Still ROFLMFAO.


yep ...

secrecy "breeds" power

power "breeds" corruption.

Incidentally mismatching breeds more of the same. 

You may have noticed that we are actually in agreement ... but, hey don't let yourself know.


Nope! you are just assuming your own premises which I rejected already!

Seth says

Matthew 10:26

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.


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