When i feel something ...

... i also feel about how i feel about it ... whether it is right or wrong ... whether i did it right or wrong .... and/or i judge it ... and then feel about my judgement.

i am no so very sure that the extra meta feelings are all that very useful.  Sometimes i think they poison the original feeling.

Tags

  1. feeling
  2. emotion
  3. echo
  4. self awareness
  5. self consciousness
  6. BofNK

Comments


Seth says
May be worth it, maybe not.
 I found this link to a book http://www.amazon.com/The-Simple-Science-Being-ebook/dp/B003WUYBVE
by someone badmouthing Werner Erhard this AM on facebook.  There seemed to be some ideas Seth might agree to (or not) - simplified. The sample also contained this diagram:


Seth says
seth 2013-09-23 10:02:03 16774
ME 2013-09-23 08:55:13 16774
The link to the Facebook item: http://on.fb.me/15m6f73

well i am "plagued" with persistence of attachement ... like here ...
source: Jim Kay Ping Chu
Tanzan and Ekido were once traveling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was still falling. Coming around a bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk Kimono and sash, unable to cross the intersection. “Come on, girl,” said Tanzan at once. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud. Ekido did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer could restrain himself. “We monks don’t go near females,” he told Tanzan, “especially not young and lovely ones. It is dangerous. Why did you do that?” “I left the girl there,” said Tanzan. “Are you still carrying her?”


Yep, that is an old Zen story I heard maybe from Michael Hadley or Peter Ralston in the 80's but it goes back a lot farther.


Seth says
I still think you finally did tap into this stuff:
3976



Seth says
seth 2013-09-24 14:54:45 16774
ME 2013-09-24 12:05:26 16774
seth 2013-09-24 11:26:15 16774
ME 2013-09-24 11:11:07 16774
seth 2013-09-24 08:18:00 16774
source: mark above
I still think you finally did tap into this stuff
.. well if you interpret my "feelings about feelings" as talking about the same thing as the "Reaction Appearance" in your diagram, then i suppose so.  was that what you meant?

What i am saying is that as i go throught the whole sequence (Experience --> Perception --> Cognition --> Effect) that then i stand apart from that and feel about how i did that.   It becomes a kind of echo.  A self awareness.  i'm not saying that echo is good or bad ... but it actually can become irritating at times ... at other times perhaps useful.  I, also, rather suspect that my echo does not sound the same as your echo ... mine might be louder, or more persistant ... maybe not ... almost impossible to tell without being inside you ... .
Well from the text of the 3976 Peter says something different:
source: ... Reaction Appearance is the same thing as Effect, it is what appears to us
as a reaction or what we'd commonly call our "experience" so you can see how
far this is from what is called Experience above (which is more like direct
experience). Reaction Sensation is too subtle to grasp here; so we have
mainly Interpreting what is Perceived (which is a meaningless phenomenon),
and giving it meaning and charge, it is to this meaning and charge that we
react or are affected.
   
... You seem to just be looking at your having had a feeling


well, then, i don't hear Peter even talking about what i am talking about.  i am talking about what happens in my being when i am experiencing self awareness.   it can be a emotion and/or it can have a thought to it too.  i can certainly see that described as a "reaction" and it does "appear" in my awareness ... so i did think it was what he was talking about, but the paragraph you quote from Peter does not seem to bear that out.  oh well.

incidentally i don't understand your judgement implied by the "just" word in your last sentence.
Yep, I can't seem then to follow what you are saying or doing.  I can follow what Peter was talking about though. Yours did not add much beyond the ordinary or a bunch of fog.



maybe it is just too simple and direct.   maybe you have made too many assumptions that contradict it.   maybe there are too many confusions in our language itself.  i haven't really said much.  what i have said, if you actually parse the sentences should be easily understood.  do you not hear a self-awareness echo too?  when you do something, do you not feel yourself in the action, do that feeling not persist after the action?  don't over think it, don't twist it, don't judge it, i am just trying to point to something, that we most likely both experience ... but never talk about directly.
Speculations notwithstanding, I experience no echoes . When I focus my attention on something & contemplate it for some amount of time I get what is there .   THe rest is not focusing attention, but getting side-tracked on something else.  Putting it into words reduces it further to just a concept & experiencing a concept not the thingy itself.  At that point I lose interest in this subject.



Seth says
ME 2013-09-24 11:11:07 16774
seth 2013-09-24 08:18:00 16774
source: mark above
I still think you finally did tap into this stuff
.. well if you interpret my "feelings about feelings" as talking about the same thing as the "Reaction Appearance" in your diagram, then i suppose so.  was that what you meant?

What i am saying is that as i go throught the whole sequence (Experience --> Perception --> Cognition --> Effect) that then i stand apart from that and feel about how i did that.   It becomes a kind of echo.  A self awareness.  i'm not saying that echo is good or bad ... but it actually can become irritating at times ... at other times perhaps useful.  I, also, rather suspect that my echo does not sound the same as your echo ... mine might be louder, or more persistant ... maybe not ... almost impossible to tell without being inside you ... .
Well from the text of the 3976 Peter says something different:
source: ... Reaction Appearance is the same thing as Effect, it is what appears to us
as a reaction or what we'd commonly call our "experience" so you can see how
far this is from what is called Experience above (which is more like direct
experience). Reaction Sensation is too subtle to grasp here; so we have
mainly Interpreting what is Perceived (which is a meaningless phenomenon),
and giving it meaning and charge, it is to this meaning and charge that we
react or are affected.
   
... You seem to just be looking at your having had a feeling


well, then, i don't hear Peter even talking about what i am talking about.  i am talking about what happens in my being when i am experiencing self awareness.   it can be a emotion and/or it can have a thought to it too.  i can certainly see that described as a "reaction" and it does "appear" in my awareness ... so i did think it was what he was talking about, but the paragraph you quote from Peter does not seem to bear that out.  oh well.

incidentally i don't understand your judgement implied by the "just" word in your last sentence.

Seth says
ME 2013-09-24 12:01:36 16774
seth 2013-09-24 08:18:00 16774
source: mark above
I still think you finally did tap into this stuff
.. well if you interpret my "feelings about feelings" as talking about the same thing as the "Reaction Appearance" in your diagram, then i suppose so.  was that what you meant?

What i am saying is that as i go throught the whole sequence (Experience --> Perception --> Cognition --> Effect) that then i stand apart from that and feel about how i did that.   It becomes a kind of echo.  A self awareness.  i'm not saying that echo is good or bad ... but it actually can become irritating at times ... at other times perhaps useful.  I, also, rather suspect that my echo does not sound the same as your echo ... mine might be louder, or more persistant ... maybe not ... almost impossible to tell without being inside you ... .
I don't have an echo.If you are watching yourself watching, what are you doing?  still watching!


well i just called it an "echo" and i am sure that you can show how there as aspects of it that are not like a echo.  but it is a thing that happens after the fact and percists and is about the original.   echo is a fine analogy of what i am talking about.

as to your last point ... if i (as subject) am aware of something (as object) .... then i (again as subject) am aware of my awareness of the first object (as object) ... then yes i am still aware ... so?

Seth says
ME 2013-09-24 12:05:26 16774
seth 2013-09-24 11:26:15 16774
ME 2013-09-24 11:11:07 16774
seth 2013-09-24 08:18:00 16774
source: mark above
I still think you finally did tap into this stuff
.. well if you interpret my "feelings about feelings" as talking about the same thing as the "Reaction Appearance" in your diagram, then i suppose so.  was that what you meant?

What i am saying is that as i go throught the whole sequence (Experience --> Perception --> Cognition --> Effect) that then i stand apart from that and feel about how i did that.   It becomes a kind of echo.  A self awareness.  i'm not saying that echo is good or bad ... but it actually can become irritating at times ... at other times perhaps useful.  I, also, rather suspect that my echo does not sound the same as your echo ... mine might be louder, or more persistant ... maybe not ... almost impossible to tell without being inside you ... .
Well from the text of the 3976 Peter says something different:
source: ... Reaction Appearance is the same thing as Effect, it is what appears to us
as a reaction or what we'd commonly call our "experience" so you can see how
far this is from what is called Experience above (which is more like direct
experience). Reaction Sensation is too subtle to grasp here; so we have
mainly Interpreting what is Perceived (which is a meaningless phenomenon),
and giving it meaning and charge, it is to this meaning and charge that we
react or are affected.
   
... You seem to just be looking at your having had a feeling


well, then, i don't hear Peter even talking about what i am talking about.  i am talking about what happens in my being when i am experiencing self awareness.   it can be a emotion and/or it can have a thought to it too.  i can certainly see that described as a "reaction" and it does "appear" in my awareness ... so i did think it was what he was talking about, but the paragraph you quote from Peter does not seem to bear that out.  oh well.

incidentally i don't understand your judgement implied by the "just" word in your last sentence.
Yep, I can't seem then to follow what you are saying or doing.  I can follow what Peter was talking about though. Yours did not add much beyond the ordinary or a bunch of fog.



maybe it is just too simple and direct.   maybe you have made too many assumptions that contradict it.   maybe there are too many confusions in our language itself.  i haven't really said much.  what i have said, if you actually parse the sentences should be easily understood.  do you not hear a self-awareness echo too?  when you do something, do you not feel yourself in the action, do that feeling not persist after the action?  don't over think it, don't twist it, don't judge it, i am just trying to point to something, that we most likely both experience ... but never talk about directly.

Seth says
ME 2013-09-25 07:44:34 16774
seth 2013-09-25 07:01:25 16774
well i can "focus my attention" and get only that which i focus on too.   but my question was: do you frequently become aware of something, then become aware you became aware of it?  ... or would that be something that rarely happens?
Sometimes. That nested awareness, especially during the #BofNK awareness contemplation, was interesting.  It is like during the day most of the time I forget myself, but sometimes if I am inclined I try to stay self-aware for a longer period of time.

well thanks for answering the question.

you still do make it sound like your "nested awareness" is something that you do during intentional meditation.  i am quite different in that regard.  mine started quite naturally, and of itself, very early in life ... maybe 6 or 7 and has gotten worse/better over the years.  but i do also pretty much "forget myself" during much of my day. 

i did notice something perchance new this morning.  talking and/or writing about this may just change it a bit.  that it may change upon being talked about , in and of itself, is a bit strange, no?

Seth says
seth 2013-09-25 14:19:07 16774
source: mark
f I have you correct - that's what PR calls the volcano effect.  When you have a direct experience it is like a volcano erupting.  Pretty soon it crusts over & disappears. Trying to put it into words only changes it faster, imho. 
... do you have a fairly direct reference to PR's "volcano effect" ?
Well you could have done an index search on your #BofNK & found it.  I did it on mine & came up with BofNK 26:45-48 . It is called the lava syndrome as a sub title.  I had first heard it from Peter in my first contemplation intensive in Berkeley. He called it then the volcano effect.  He created breaks in the monotony of dyads of "Who Am I?" with Zen stories, other exercises & some lectures.


Seth says
there may well be some relationship between writing as meditation and self awarness amplifying (if not making it actually appear) some emotion or even a perception.

Seth says
i came across this question yesterday:  if i am happy, and don't know it, am i happy?

if i feel something or experience something and yet am not aware that i am feeling or experiencing it ... obviously i won't be able to say that i did ... but does it go further than that?  Is it like a tree in the forest that falls but does not because nobody observed it?

Is, or is not, there some inexorable connection between awareness and (awareness of that awareness) that sans the latter the former cannot exist?

Seth says
seth 2013-09-26 09:19:06 16774
source: mark
If I have you correct - that's what PR calls the volcano effect.  When you have a direct experience it is like a volcano erupting.  Pretty soon it crusts over & disappears. Trying to put it into words only changes it faster, imho. 
Well there is no volcano effect here for me ... no grand enlightenment ... just me being self conscious ... aware of what i am thinking and feeling ... and aware that i am so aware.

i did read what Peter said there and i think he is talking about other things.  His grand assumption in BofNK seems to me to be that "discovering who I am" ... err, "what my consciousness is in its very being" ... is a burning question that i should take up in his terms.  all his words and reasoning and targeted to getting me to take up that agenda.  thing is, i can make up anything i choose for that to be ... i'm sure Peter has made up a fine one for himself ... i just don't think what he has made up and felt for himself has all that much to do with me.  but, hey bro, if you like it for yourself, go for it.
NOPE! ... not made-up but studied since he was a little boy. Maybe it is not your thing & probably not the being droidness that you are seeking for. You have yet to discover why you seem to hate or dislike occult & enlightenment endeavors; missing the point of daddy in your life bio.


Seth says
seth 2013-09-26 10:04:11 16774
there may well be some relationship between writing as meditation and self awarness amplifying (if not making it actually appear) some emotion or even a perception.
incidentally this is the new and interesting and experimental part for me.   

Seth says
ME 2013-09-26 12:47:02 16774
ME 2013-09-26 11:11:45 16774
I think YOU are the one actually making up your own shit (since childhood!)! When you end up being 99 let me know if I am around what it is like to still hate authority.

... when nobody wants to listen to you!


look, nobody, can or does, have authority over what my life means to me.  me thinks all self help books should start with that sentence.  i guess that is the part you don't get.  sure people can give me useful information when it is proffered honestly.  i don't get that from peter, sorry.  i can see through just too very much of his so called non reasoning.  it just does not work over here.  in this kind of dialogue, all i am looking for is honest information about you.  if you don't want to share that, then this is not the droid you are looking for.

Seth says
seth 2013-09-28 08:12:36 16774
source: mark
For yet another point of view on anger see #BofNK 23:28-23:44 especially 23:38 first bullet where you are not present but living in the past.
looks to me that peter is recommending "concentrating on a feeling of being mad", perchance to get to it's cause ... or put differently, thinking about the feeling ... err, going meta on the feeling.  for this discussion what is important is that the first step to correcting a feeling is to be aware of it.  that is the self awareness of our topic. 
The first step in contemplation is being present to now. #BofNK 21:58 - outlines Peter's process; your interpretations/mileage/results may vary.


Seth says
source: mark
For yet another point of view on anger see #BofNK 23:28-23:44 especially 23:38 first bullet where you are not present but living in the past.
looks to me that peter is recommending "concentrating on a feeling of being mad", perchance to get to it's cause ... or put differently, thinking about the feeling ... err, going meta on the feeling.  for this discussion what is important is that the first step to correcting a feeling is to be aware of it.  that is the self awareness of our topic. 

Seth says
ME 2013-09-27 12:41:47 16774
seth 2013-09-27 12:10:10 16774
ME 2013-09-27 10:52:26 16774
Actually I think you describe quite well what might be an answer to the question "What is the meaning of self?"
=

what do you mean?
The whizzard is confused.

oh ... hmmm ... thanks for clearing that up .

but ... err ... the wizzard is confused would more accurately be said like this "<- ".

but ... err ... thanks for the insult in any case .

Seth says
ME 2013-09-27 10:41:45 16774
seth 2013-09-27 10:15:32 16774
ME 2013-09-27 08:46:51 16774
seth 2013-09-27 03:57:38 16774
ME 2013-09-26 12:47:02 16774
ME 2013-09-26 11:11:45 16774
I think YOU are the one actually making up your own shit (since childhood!)! When you end up being 99 let me know if I am around what it is like to still hate authority.

... when nobody wants to listen to you!


look, nobody, can or does, have authority over what my life means to me.  me thinks all self help books should start with that sentence.  i guess that is the part you don't get.  sure people can give me useful information when it is proffered honestly.  i don't get that from peter, sorry.  i can see through just too very much of his so called non reasoning.  it just does not work over here.  in this kind of dialogue, all i am looking for is honest information about you.  if you don't want to share that, then this is not the droid you are looking for.
YEP! RS & PR never use authority over their students. Peter further debunks the idea of meaning of life (in #BofNK) for the curious.


i think i remember reading peter's debunking of the meaning of life ... and also ... surprise, surprise ... that i agreed with it.   of course i was talking about something quite different when i used the term "what my life means to me".    you see there i was just enforcing the idea that the significance of what i do in my life is something that i choose ... something that i myself create .... it is not something that can or should be assertained through study or from some authority or from what some other people have concluded from same.  quite a different idea than what peter debunked, no?
NO! Obviously your own meaning will end with you.  Twisting the meaning of life phrase will also end with you. Perhaps the meaning of meaning is foreign to your own personal ontology. Maybe you have it collapsed with the idea that you care about your own life which most of us do about our own.


My meaning will end with me, in the same sense that the meaning of a picture ends beyond the right edge of its frame.  But these "meanings" need not even end there ... since Nature in her stunning beauty has created the faculty in us, and outside of us, to communicate such meanings to others. 

Incidentally i have made quite a in depth study of meaning ... and not just from my own observations and concepts ... but also by reading other philosophers of language who probably have thought about it much more than either you or i.  Perhaps you don't remember me talking about that, or perhaps you just flushed it just because it came from me ... in any case, i really do not think i am twisting the correct usage of the word "meaning".

Just between you and i, i have never really related to the question, "what is the meaning of life" ... it has always struck me as a fairly meaningless and useless question.   But, ever since i can remember, i have always asked myself the question:  "for whom do i live" ... or ... "what do i do this for" ... meaning something more like "if i am going to do this or that, if i am to struggle with this, what master or purpose am i serving".  Perhaps i will write a separate item, outside of the context of your obstinance, about that.

strangely enough writing and thinking about some of this, in context here, has lead me to realize some new shit ... let me see if i can creep up on it.  My life as such is NOT a sign ... although i can, if i choose, use it that way ... but it does not in and of itself signify.  In that regard i am in complete agreement with Peter.  That certainly is a good Gestalt to culture, but that is not the new shit.   The new shit would shed some light on self consciousness.  Hmmm ...
...


Seth says
ME 2013-09-27 12:17:14 16774
Yep, my life is not a sign. I have made an in depth study of GW, RS, PR,TR, MH, LEC, WE & many others touching on meaning, being, now, time, consciousness, & many other subjects. I will treat your references/pointerts as you treat mine - mostly deserving of the bit bucket.


well at least we are in agreement on our lives are not signs ... their nature is not to represent ... they are not of what i call "the meta world" ... and not some kind of mental thing.

i take the rest of your comment as just Markma ... kind of like smegma ... only stinkier .

Seth says
ME 2013-09-27 12:52:39 16774
seth 2013-09-27 12:34:59 16774
ME 2013-09-27 12:17:14 16774
Yep, my life is not a sign. I have made an in depth study of GW, RS, PR,TR, MH, LEC, WE & many others touching on meaning, being, now, time, consciousness, & many other subjects. I will treat your references/pointerts as you treat mine - mostly deserving of the bit bucket.


well at least we are in agreement on our lives are not signs ... their nature is not to represent ... they are not of what i call "the meta world" ... and not some kind of mental thing.

i take the rest of your comment as just Markma ... kind of like smegma ... only stinkier .
It has been a long time since you have responded to anything I have said without ad hominem shit. I usually do that in response to your innuendo & tone (dis).
If you are playing with meta-feelings you just simply are not fully present to what is happening.
Simple? Yep!


Seth says
source: mark
If you are playing with meta-feelings you just simply are not fully present to what is happening.
Simple? Yep!
Not necessarily.  if i am mad about A, then judge my madness as unproductive, my meta-feeling is perhaps useful, no?  i think if you look more closely at your concept of "present to what is happening", i think you will see it dissolving into confusion.   For me this NOW thingy is more like an iris that opens and closes ... narrows its focus or expands to include a larger time span or context.  in some cases a larger context is more useful ... in other the blinders of a narrowed context is better.  

self consciousness or thoughts and feelings about (meta to) my own thoughts and feelings and actions and reactions make me "present to" my life ... not having them, or being oblivious to how i am feeling, i think would make me more like an automaton just wagging on the winds of external events. 


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