Subject vs Object


Can a being talk and listen at the same time?

Me, i claim that i do it all the time.  I talk and listen in the same now ... in that i do not know in advance what i am going to say or do, but only really find out when i see or hear myself doing it.  Later, frequently, i will go back and listen again to what i said (or wrote) to see if it is still true ... it it is not, i try to edit it to improve its truth.

Tags

  1. self
  2. awareness
  3. now
  4. self awareness

Comments


Seth says
ME 2013-10-09 07:48:30 16807
Hmmm... funny exercise .
In the visual channel or port we have something like attention or focus. Just because your peripheral vision can detect something does not mean that your focus is on it.  Of course if you focus on your peripheral vision then your attention is there & not upon where it was before on something specific like a leaf or your anus as you strain to give birth to a turd. At the same time is an interesting notion for conversations in your head.


well yes, one sensual channel, one focus.

but i talk here of attention, not focus.  just because your eyes are focused on something, does not mean you are paying attention to it

lets put this another way ... i appear to be a being with two kinds of channels ... on one kind i do things ... on the other kind  i watch things happen.   So, fact is, i it seems to me that i can do things and become informed of what i did by watching myself do them.  is it not the same with you?

Seth says
ME 2013-10-09 07:48:30 16807
Hmmm... funny exercise .
In the visual channel or port we have something like attention or focus. Just because your peripheral vision can detect something does not mean that your focus is on it.  Of course if you focus on your peripheral vision then your attention is there & not upon where it was before on something specific like a leaf or your anus as you strain to give birth to a turd. At the same time is an interesting notion for conversations in your head.

Sorry, , I switched channels on you in the penultimate sentence above but I am sure you can figure out the analogy.

Seth says
source: mark considers an example
At the same time is an interesting notion for conversations in your head.

... well yes interesting. 

i don't see a lot of difference between what happens in my head and what happens as i talk or write to people in the world.   Except of course in my head there is no otherness ... it is all just me .... so i have to make up the otherness. 

When i talk to myself, in my head, i am talking and listening at the same time.  There just does seems to be two independent channels here.

is it not the same for you?

Seth says
seth 2013-10-09 08:54:08 16807
ME 2013-10-09 08:42:17 16807
seth 2013-10-09 08:15:22 16807
ME 2013-10-09 07:48:30 16807
Hmmm... funny exercise .
In the visual channel or port we have something like attention or focus. Just because your peripheral vision can detect something does not mean that your focus is on it.  Of course if you focus on your peripheral vision then your attention is there & not upon where it was before on something specific like a leaf or your anus as you strain to give birth to a turd. At the same time is an interesting notion for conversations in your head.


well yes, one sensual channel, one focus.

but i talk here of attention, not focus.  just because your eyes are focused on something, does not mean you are paying attention to it

lets put this another way ... i appear to be a being with two kinds of channels ... on one kind i do things ... on the other kind  i watch things happen.   So, fact is, i it seems to me that i can do things and become informed of what i did by watching myself do them.  is it not the same with you?
Where your conscious attention is is your focus.  PR calls it feeling attention.  I am talking about where you focus your attention. Confuse them if you want to be confused.


it is still the same question:  can you focus (pay attention) to what you are doing (saying, writing, whatever) ... and at the same time listen to what that saying sounds like ?
I'm sure you think you can. I can make them distinct.  The epiphany I experienced one morning circa ~1972 when I lived in the Haight can't be taken away by your confusion nor probably explained to a mismatching listening. Like most direct experiences & some of those which are close (e.g. the answer to "Who Am I?" ) - this one doesn't yield well to description. You can try out your focusing consciousness on one end of the "conversation in your head" and alternatively on the other. You can just call them points of view or noise or separate beings. Enjoy!

There was another one the other day where I had a weird experience of NOW mixed with being & no time. It had little to do with doing, acting, or anything that encapsulated the notions of time.  I will let that mature a while.


Seth says
ME 2013-10-09 08:42:17 16807
seth 2013-10-09 08:15:22 16807
ME 2013-10-09 07:48:30 16807
Hmmm... funny exercise .
In the visual channel or port we have something like attention or focus. Just because your peripheral vision can detect something does not mean that your focus is on it.  Of course if you focus on your peripheral vision then your attention is there & not upon where it was before on something specific like a leaf or your anus as you strain to give birth to a turd. At the same time is an interesting notion for conversations in your head.


well yes, one sensual channel, one focus.

but i talk here of attention, not focus.  just because your eyes are focused on something, does not mean you are paying attention to it

lets put this another way ... i appear to be a being with two kinds of channels ... on one kind i do things ... on the other kind  i watch things happen.   So, fact is, i it seems to me that i can do things and become informed of what i did by watching myself do them.  is it not the same with you?
Where your conscious attention is is your focus.  PR calls it feeling attention.  I am talking about where you focus your attention. Confuse them if you want to be confused.


it is still the same question:  can you focus (pay attention) to what you are doing (saying, writing, whatever) ... and at the same time listen to what that saying sounds like ?

Seth says
indidentally, after i write something i keep reading it back to myself to better hear what it sounds like ... see writing as meditation.

Seth says
there is another piece of evidence that supports my "model" here.   i can be doing something and thinking about something entirely different.  in fact it can be quite embarrassing moment when i wake up and finally watch what i am doing. 

now certainly there is some confusion here between us.  me thinks we just need to be very specific about what our terms are referring to.

incidentally i have not digested your latest above ... i'm leaving that for later perhaps even tomorrow.

Seth says
Well, I've pretty much said my piece.  You are welcome to try to grok it or not.  Yours is the "standard experience" what I would NOT expect from a non-standard mind such as yours.


Seth says
ME 2013-10-09 09:15:41 16807
seth 2013-10-09 08:54:08 16807
ME 2013-10-09 08:42:17 16807
seth 2013-10-09 08:15:22 16807
ME 2013-10-09 07:48:30 16807
Hmmm... funny exercise .
In the visual channel or port we have something like attention or focus. Just because your peripheral vision can detect something does not mean that your focus is on it.  Of course if you focus on your peripheral vision then your attention is there & not upon where it was before on something specific like a leaf or your anus as you strain to give birth to a turd. At the same time is an interesting notion for conversations in your head.


well yes, one sensual channel, one focus.

but i talk here of attention, not focus.  just because your eyes are focused on something, does not mean you are paying attention to it

lets put this another way ... i appear to be a being with two kinds of channels ... on one kind i do things ... on the other kind  i watch things happen.   So, fact is, i it seems to me that i can do things and become informed of what i did by watching myself do them.  is it not the same with you?
Where your conscious attention is is your focus.  PR calls it feeling attention.  I am talking about where you focus your attention. Confuse them if you want to be confused.


it is still the same question:  can you focus (pay attention) to what you are doing (saying, writing, whatever) ... and at the same time listen to what that saying sounds like ?
I'm sure you think you can. I can make them distinct.  The epiphany I experienced one morning circa ~1972 when I lived in the Haight can't be taken away by your confusion nor probably explained to a mismatching listening. Like most direct experiences & some of those which are close (e.g. the answer to "Who Am I?" ) - this one doesn't yield well to description. You can try out your focusing consciousness on one end of the "conversation in your head" and alternatively on the other. You can just call them points of view or noise or separate beings. Enjoy!

There was another one the other day where I had a weird experience of NOW mixed with being & no time. It had little to do with doing, acting, or anything that encapsulated the notions of time.  I will let that mature a while.


Well picture an object bobbing in water and making waves ... and another thing in the water responding to those waves.  We can call the first thing the object and the second thing the subject.  that is a picture of awareness: the subject is aware of the object.   when I speak I make waves in the waters of my mind.   when I listen I respond as subject to what is speaking as object.   so far i haven't reported anything, just merely pointed to things to talk about.

now i am reporting that most of the time when i am thinking silently to myself I experience as both subject and object.  I am what speaks and I am what listens.  But lots of times i continue to speak but forget to listen ... like for example when i continue to read but my mind trails off to something else.  Alternatively there are times when i am listening to myself but i am saying nothing. 

I actually hail your ability to hear thoughts and not also be simultaneously aware that it is you thinking them (aware as subject) ... or alternatively to think in your mind yet not be also aware that you thought it (aware as object).  [that was a very difficult sentence to write, perhaps you could do it better].  

Don't get me wrong, i believe you experience is authentic ... i would like to do it myself, but so far haven't been able to ... though i have been trying .

I don't hear voices in my head (except my own) ... except perhaps briefly in the San Francisco jail.  But even there, the place was so noisy, and i was so out of my mind, that i am not sure.  But when i heard a voice tell me to run, i ran.  That didn't go well ... i ended up in solitary.  Now i am not saying that your particular placing your attention on listening exclusive from consciousness of talking is the same thing as hearing voices.  But does it not have the very same salient features?

Tell me more.


Seth says
Losing your train of thought should give one the clue to ask the question of who's in charge in there? If you are totally in charge (it's all you)  how does that happen?  Damaged equipment ?  I treat my thoughts like friends.  Those that I spend time with return more often. They show more of themselves the more frequent I spend time with them.  Even though I use this model & can accept it as reality I know what is inside & outside my mind.

I had fun ~ 4 AM today meditating & doing something like zazen & just watched the thoughts go bye without benefit of clothing them in language. It kept on for quite a while until I finally slipped back into sleep. I did not engage anything in "conversation" but they just kept on coming. 


Seth says
& some talking apples

Seth says
... one ingredient to construct an image of two apples talking, one talking and one listening.  now all i need is a transparent apple

Seth says
Communication is not simple ...



all the clarity we can give it, the better!

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