Real or Ideal

The Ideal is constructed of rules which should not be broken.  It is regular and ordered.

The Real happens according to the situations which obtain.  It is complex and hairy.

I’m thinking a thingey is either real or ideal ... meaning that there is not a spectrum where the more the real the less the ideal and visa versa.   So is this a polarity in that sense …. right?

Metaphysically, perhaps, we could associate Ideal with the Ahrimanic and the Real with the Luciferic.  I say "perhaps" here because i think these kinds of associations can be made differently by different metaphysical gestalts.

Tags

  1. real
  2. ideal
  3. mind vs manifestation
  4. dualities
  5. loa
  6. the secret
  7. skeptics
  8. manifesting

Comments


Seth says
seth 2013-11-11 08:17:38 16888
Here is an example:  an ideal circle is imagined as all the points in a plane which are equidistant from an ideal point in that plane.  Such a circle does not exist in the real world.  But i show here a copy of a real circle that i found at The Illustrated Guide to a P.H.D.
 
I believe you to be getting only one part of the meaning of the word Ideal. I tend to go down the path to ideas, as in "I have an idea".  What you describe is the concept of a circle.  See picture below from the Visual Thesaurus:


Seth says
Here is an example:  an ideal circle is imagined as all the points in a plane which are equidistant from an ideal point in that plane.  Such a circle does not exist in the real world.  But i show here a copy of a real circle that i found at The Illustrated Guide to a P.H.D.
 

Seth says
ME 2013-11-10 08:27:48 16888
If you are bouncing against 3163 you have it (the real-ideal polarity spectrum) other than how RS held it. Your first & second sentences are otherness.



i'll have to look at Book Chamelion to see if CFR put this distinction anywhere on the cube ... but i don't think he did.  Do you see the two different aspects anywhere in the Zodiac?  I don't know where they might be.  I can also presume that they are not specifically the same as the Luciferic/Ahirmanic difference ... but i think one could associate them that way for the sake of a gestalt. 

Some other "dualities" to consider along with ideal/real might be order/chaos, subjective/objective, and finally good/bad. 

Seth says
seth 2013-11-11 08:27:50 16888
ME 2013-11-10 08:27:48 16888
If you are bouncing against 3163 you have it (the real-ideal polarity spectrum) other than how RS held it. Your first & second sentences are otherness.



i'll have to look at Book Chamelion to see if CFR put this distinction anywhere on the cube ... but i don't think he did.  Do you see the two different aspects anywhere in the Zodiac?  I don't know where they might be.  I can also presume that they are not specifically the same as the Luciferic/Ahirmanic difference ... but i think one could associate them that way for the sake of a gestalt. 

Some other "dualities" to consider along with ideal/real might be order/chaos, subjective/objective, and finally good/bad. 
As before there is a polarity between Aries & Libra (Ideal-Real). What is nice about 3163 is there is a spectrum with Aries in the middle that spreads out a large step at a time towards the material from ideal -> rational -> mathematics -> materialism.  Also in the other direction you get Aries (Ideal) going toward psychology ->breathing entity ->spiritual.  The same goes for the Libra (real side of things). These are all modified from the moods (kind of consciousness) in which they are perceived . I don't know why you want to associate the triad Ahriman, Lucifer & Christ with it; leaving out Christ.
The polarity of Lucifer-Ahrimnan is extreme Ego vs extreme material.  So on the zodiac that might be Materialism vs Spiritualism but going on into moods like Empiricism & Occultism .  You seem to be naturally disposed toward Empiricism & Logicism as moods of consiousness.

Seth says
Yin-Yang might be what you are looking for on the cube.

Mark de LA says
Ahriman is materialism – Lucifer is egoism – neither good nor bad. Lucifer wants man to abandon the past for an imagined future & Ahriman would make a borg out of humanity.  Both are extremes. Human Being & Consciousness benefits from the middle way with Love. 

Seth says
source: ...

Manifesting is allegedly a way for the average person, without need of paranormal or divine powers, to do magick and perform miracles. All one needs is the will to exercise one's magic on the universe. "Manifesting is the art of creating what you want at the time that you want it," says John Payne (aka Omni, a "being of light" channeled by Mr. Payne).

Manifesting is an eclectic hodgepodge of CYOR (create your own reality), visualization techniques, positive thinking, goal-setting, self-analysis, selective thinking, and post hoc reasoning, supported by tons of anecdotes. The purpose of manifesting is to get what you want by actively making your dreams come true, rather than passively waiting for someone to fulfill your dreams.
mr 2013-12-09 08:50:45 [item 16888#29361]
There is an interesting take on manifestation in the Skeptic Dictionary.
... etc. 
seth 2016-02-06 10:52:27 [item 16888#44798]
well “manifesting” in the ideal world … in that meta world of iminagination and thought … is one thing.   “mainfesting” something to happen that can be shared by others .. is a totally different thingey … or at least in my ontology it is quite different and easily distinguished.   Manifesting in the meta world, and who knows even the meta physical world, is … er me thinks … a subjective matter in which we all are Gods in that  domain.  But manifesting in the world where sharable things happen is something we do together with the others who also have dominion there.  
Mark 2016-02-06 11:18:04 [item 16888#44801]
All hail META .  http://www.nlplifetraining.com/book-extracts/meta-modelling-dr-bandlers-magic-in-action or just google Richard Bandler on meta smug Then too Steven Hawking has a lot of people believing in black holes & no gods & big bangs.
seth 2016-02-06 11:23:16 [item 16888#44803]
well my thought was not really about peopl’s usage of the natural language stem  called “meta”.   i doubt that another would ever be able to grok that thought following that literature.  were sombody actually interested in continueing my thread, they might be able to do it faster by checking out my tag room,  metaworld
Mark 2016-02-06 11:29:45 [item 16888#44805]
or maybe continue threads as just touchstones with little resemblence to the thoughts/threads/etc that have gone before … just comments of the moment. thumbs up
well actually my origingal thought in the body of this item and your replay to it on  which i continued are a continuous thread in my mind.  that it was not also in yours, is not surprising, and not very interesting. 

Mark de LA says
Mark 2016-02-06 10:33:34 [item 16888#44795]
AC & others call it the magic (or magick) link – see also the Skeptic’s Dictionary on the law of attraction . The Secret came out in 2006.  
Skeptic on Abraham here.
Skeptic on Aleister Crowley
Skeptic on Rudolf Steiner
Skeptic on NLP
Skeptic on Energy 
Skeptic on Uri Geller

I am not saying that Robert T. Carroll is any more of an authority on stuff than his skeptical presentations. OTOH it is usually nice to adhere to my old advice:

There is no substitute for consciousness during these moments.

seth 2016-02-06 11:41:52 [item 16888#44807]
Why did you post this list of gurus on this particular thought today?   What is the connection between  that list and Real or Ideal ?  … i tired to guess, but failed to get it.
Mark 2016-02-06 11:49:08 [item 16888#44808]
It seemed appropriate at the time. 
Mark 2016-02-06 11:51:38 [item 16888#44809]
Thanks for that separation feeling ; tasted yukky  – your already, always Me(I) present in it’s radianceenlightened – Maybe Otherness(otherness) is Ego, eh?
seth 2016-02-06 11:56:19 [item 16888#44810]
well strange … i have no idea what “separation feeling” you refer to here …. your feeling … or my feeling … and in either case what provoked it. 

incidentally i actually was curious about why you selected this thought to post that list on ← trust me on that please, it was not some kind of complaint … just me triing to actally experience the train of thought that ended with you manifesting that particular list of gurus here.  personally i thought it was a good list for comparisons … i even think it deserves its own thought. 

Seth says
Mark 2016-02-06 12:13:01 [item 16888#44812]
It is hard with this kind of nesting to figure out what one is commenting on. At some point I ran into the skeptic dictionary on loa & began.
seth 2016-02-06 12:15:44 [item 16888#44813]
ok that makes sense yes.

i like the list … maybe several others need to be added
Mark 2016-02-06 12:19:32 [item 16888#44814]
BTW, I remember I was going to put in the LOA group, but thought it would just gin up more RWG or aphorisms see 17206 indecision
like

See Also

  1. Thought A Law of Attraction Event Story with 814 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  2. Thought #Integrity #authenticity with 449 viewings related by tag "loa".
  3. Thought Seeking Information with 329 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  4. Thought about: one of the best dialogues ever written! ever! the egg. | spirit science with 275 viewings related by tag "loa".
  5. Thought about: Syrian War - comment 75615 with 237 viewings related by tag "loa".
  6. Thought Doing things for others with 190 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  7. Thought LOA Trumps Hillary with 173 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  8. Thought Sensing ... with 169 viewings related by tag "loa".
  9. Thought #WillToBelieve with 168 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  10. Thought DMT - and the reality drug with 142 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  11. Thought Taking Control with 141 viewings related by tag "loa".
  12. Thought Fallacies and Pallacies with 124 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  13. Thought Why my trains of thought break ... with 123 viewings related by tag "loa".
  14. Thought What comes first ... thinking or doing ... er, always? with 118 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  15. Thought are your thoughts yours alone or are they really available to all who can tune them in? with 118 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  16. Thought Little magical circumstances. with 117 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  17. Thought General to specific with 101 viewings related by tag "loa".
  18. Thought Mark Fo Hammer's new age thinking and brain coupling with 101 viewings related by tag "loa".
  19. Thought [title (23969)] with 98 viewings related by tag "loa".
  20. Thought Going from Spectrum to Trinity with 86 viewings related by tag "ideal".
  21. Thought Making up Others with 85 viewings related by tag "loa".
  22. Thought Crisps up LOA! with 79 viewings related by tag "loa".
  23. Thought Midnight Cowboy in Seattle with 63 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  24. Thought an example of LOA philosophy not working ... with 62 viewings related by tag "loa".
  25. Thought YES Island with 59 viewings related by tag "loa".
  26. Thought Deeds collapse Possibilities into Manifestations with 55 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  27. Thought Yet Another "Circumstances don't Matter" with 51 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  28. Thought The Meaning of Everything - The Immutable Laws with 47 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  29. Thought What does Miami mean? with 47 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  30. Thought Humanity from the Anthroposophical Point of View with 45 viewings related by tag "loa".
  31. Thought The human personality with 44 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  32. Thought about: Contemplation - comment 59735 with 43 viewings related by tag "loa".
  33. Thought Representing something changes my awareness of it with 42 viewings related by tag "loa".
  34. Thought Thinking Domains Curate Too! with 40 viewings related by tag "loa".
  35. Thought Free will of another with 39 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  36. Thought Interesting Constellation - Lakshmi with 38 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  37. Thought about: Mini-Cast Episode 28: Integrity with yourself. - comment 68040 with 35 viewings related by tag "loa".
  38. Thought #LoaSwim with 32 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  39. Thought #Hooponopono with 32 viewings related by tag "loa".
  40. Thought What is the fear of losing control? with 30 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  41. Thought the only thingeys that actually exist are unique occurrence’s connected within their context. with 28 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  42. Thought Polarity in an LOA world with 24 viewings related by tag "loa".
  43. Thought Respect the matrix of others with 24 viewings related by tag "loa".
  44. Thought Does a person shape 100% of their experience? with 22 viewings related by tag "loa".
  45. Thought #FauxNate with 21 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  46. Thought Abram on the Right Wrong Game with 20 viewings related by tag "loa".
  47. Thought True Believers ! with 18 viewings related by tag "loa".
  48. Thought about: the focus wheel process with 14 viewings related by tag "loa".
  49. Thought about: Hiding others Comments is the real bullying - #GFY ! - comment 74797 with 14 viewings related by tag "LOA".
  50. Thought about: donald trump | the planetary society with 12 viewings related by tag "LOA".